Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cyclone Taylor/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 25 December 2019 [1].

Cyclone Taylor[edit]

Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 15:45, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Considered the first true superstar in hockey history, Fred "Cyclone" Taylor was a huge name in the early 20th century. At one point making more money per match than any athlete in the world, he commanded a high price wherever he went, and having him around brought legitimacy to various leagues as they were establishing themselves. Outside of hockey he worked as an immigration official, and was involved in one of the most notorious cases in Canadian immigration history. An article I've been looking to bring to FA for years, I finally put the work into it recently and had it pass GA in September. All comments are welcome, and will work to address in a timely manner. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:45, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
Done.
  • Images hosted on Commons should include a tag for status in Canada, not just US
Done.
  • File:Komogata_Maru_LAC_a034014_1914.jpg: when/where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:18, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Working on finding a definitive answer for that. If I don't have something by the end of the week will remove it. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was unable to get a definitive answer, so have removed the image. Kaiser matias (talk) 21:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

(I took this, initially, to be a weather article! Ah, well...)

  • Spotchecks not carried out; however, I notice that the lead says born June 23, 1884, died 9 June 1979 which would be just before his 95th birthday. The Ottawa Citizen of June 11, 1979, states "just before his 94th birthday". Which is right?
As noted there is a discrepancy between his birthdate; most give the 1884 date, though some sources listed 1885. The Ottawa Citizen is apparently using the 1885 source.
  • Links to sources are all working.
  • Formats:
  • Notes: Is there any reason for using a different format to cite the information in "Notes"?
Not particularly, though as the "Notes" are more explanatory I felt it was logical to have a way to differentiate them from actual citations, but I'm certainly not opposed to alternatives
  • Notes g, h and i are unreferenced.
Fixed that.
  • Ref 59, Bowlby, pp. 2–30. Page range rather too wide - can it be broken down to cite more precisely the individual facts in the paragraph?
Clarified more relevant pages.
  • Quality/reliability. I don't see any issues here. Sources used seem appropriate to the subject, comprehensive, and meeting the FA quality criteria.

Brianboulton (talk) 22:58, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, appreciate the look through, even if it wasn't that weather-related. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:17, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Several quick comments –

  • Early life: Was "in" meant to be placed inside "losing sudden-death overtime"?
  • I see $1500 in one section and $5,250 in the next. Pick one style (with comma, most likely) and stick with it consistently.
  • Vancouver Millionaires (1912–1922): I'm having trouble understanding this sentence: "He had five goals and one assist in the six games played, and the five games Vancouver played in the Stanley Cup Final against the Senators, recording one assist." Were the six games regular season games, or did they include the five Cup Final games?
  • Note b: "He concludes that the 1884 dates is likely the correct one." "dates" should be "date". Giants2008 (Talk) 22:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Giants2008: Thanks for the comments. I've corrected everything here, and if you have anything else just let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:53, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kosack

Removed
  • "which was not a lot to raise five children on", this comes across rather informal and sounds more like opinion than fact. Is there something to compare this to, like average wages at the time or similar?
Added a bit more of a qualifier.
  • "He was given his first pair of skates and taught" > was taught?
Fixed
  • "to move to Toronto and play for the Toronto Marlboros", I think the first part could be dropped and simply go with "to play for the Toronto Marlboros".
Done
  • Did Hewitt give an actual reason for banning Taylor? It seems unlikely that he could simply ban him for not switching teams, I'm assuming he found a way to justify his actions?
Tried to clarify it a bit. The story has been questioned recently as to how true it is (which the note there suggests), but I've tried to explain a bit of how it would have gone
  • "as the team won the Portage won the 1906 league", doesn't quite make sense.
Fixed
  • "at the time few players skated this way, let alone score goals while doing so" > scored?
Fixed
  • "Having moved out West in 1910", West isn't capitalised in previous uses. Should this one be any different? There's a similar usage further on, try to stay consistent throughout the article.
No reason to be capitalized, and all mentions have been fixed.
  • "ten goals and 8 assists", avoid using a mix of numerals and words in similar context.
Fixed
  • "Vancouver finished second in the league and thus was unable to defend their Stanley Cup title", a singular or plural issue when dealing with team names. I would suggest it should be "defend its Stanley Cup..." when referring to the organisation itself.
Fixed
  • "He started the season strong" > strongly, perhaps?
Done
  • The Komagata Maru incident could do with more explanation as to why it was a controversial event. Was it because of the reaction when the ship returned home or becuase it was turned away by Canadian authorities? Right now, it sounds like a ship of immigrants illegally attempted to enter a country and were turned away, this doesn't really seem to justify the "terrible affair" quote.
I added a bit more detail, but at it was a quite simple issue: Canada didn't want non-Europeans to enter, and so refused to let anyone off the ship, forcing a standoff for several weeks. If you think it needs a bit more let me know, I'll see what I can do.

Here's what I picked out on a run through, hope this helps. Kosack (talk) 20:24, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack: Thanks for going through it, have made the above changes. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:56, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support now. Kosack (talk) 18:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bullet point comments Canada Hky (talk) 23:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the lead, PCHA is abbreviated, but not used again (in the lead). The abbreviation can probably be removed, or other league abbreviations (IHL) could be added. Removed is probably better.
Removed it
  • In the second paragraph of the "Early life" section, there are a couple of really long sentences, that double up on themselves a few times - the 4th sentence uses both Mintos and OHA twice. The third and fourth sentences might need to be trimmed a bit.
Cleaned it up a bit. Let me know if that's better.
  • In the last paragraph of the Early life section - it is unclear if this refers to two consecutive seasons (03/04 ad 04/05), or just 03/04.
Clarified the specific season
  • In the "Portage la Prairie..." section - is there a reference for "...some had been covertly paid in Canada"?
Added
  • My grammar isn't the greatest, so take this with a grain of salt. In the second paragraph, should the parenthetical clarification be "[I]" instead of "[he]"?
Yeah it should be. I've restored it to the original quote
  • In "Ottawa Senators", can you offer clarification as to when the league changed names? The abbreviation ECAHA is used towards the end of his time there in the last paragraph.
Done
  • In "Vancouver Millionaires" - "...Eastern Canada to join the league, which included the offer of the NHA all-star team to tour in 1912" - "included the offer of" doesn't quite make sense - were they offering a spot on the team to everyone, or just that it existed?
I removed it as it really isn't adding anything there. It's also noted in the paragraph above, so nothing major is lost.
  • In this section, it appears that Taylor had his appendix out twice. After the first season where he had stomach troubles, and again during the 16/17 season.
Clarified it. The sources mentioned he was planning to wait, but then ended up not doing it until it became an issue in 1916.
  • In "Immigration officer" - In the second sentence - using "position" twice sounds awkward.
Changed word
  • In "Marriage and family" - is the "also" necessary when describing Joan's passing? I am guessing it refers to her mother, but those are mentioned fairly distantly in the prose.
Removed

This is what I noticed on a read through. Similar to my second bullet point, there are a lot of long, somewhat awkward sentences. I am not sure if this is rephrasing to avoid plagiarism, but a quick read through to look for those sentences with 2 or 3 commas and the odd semi colon might offer some opportunities for rephrasing to make the prose flow a bit better. I will pop in on this to check over the next few days, and feel free to hit me up with any questions. Canada Hky (talk) 00:10, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Canada Hky: Thanks for the comments. I'll be able to address everything over the weekend, possibly earlier if I can. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:55, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Canada Hky: Went through and addressed everything else. And regarding the writing, I think that's more a trait of my own style (I do have a habit of overusing semi-colons). I went through and removed a few, but if you have anything else you think should be addressed let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support - All of my comments have been addressed. Thanks for the effort! Canada Hky (talk) 23:12, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SandyGeorgia[edit]

Not FAC-ready, suggest withdrawal.

I looked at one section only; that section revealed that an independent copyedit is needed. (I corrected one typo while I was there.)

  • Taylor had joined the Immigration Branch of the Department of the Interior in October 1907, a job that was arranged as an inducement to get Taylor to play with Ottawa.
    • Passive voice (was arranged) leaves reader wondering by whom.
  • He thus started out as a junior clerk, earning $35 a month.
    • Thus?
  • When Taylor moved to Vancouver in 1912 he initially took a leave of absence from his position.
    • We were never told what city the Immigration job was first in, so we don't know where he moved from.
    • After he moved from ??? to Vancouver in 1912, he took a leave of absence.
  • Frank Patrick would later use his close connection with Sir Richard McBride, the Premier of British Columbia, to get Taylor's position transferred west, and ultimately promoted to senior immigration inspector.
    • His position was ultimately promoted ? Or he was?
  • The Komagata Maru was a steamship of 376 Hindu, Muslim and Sikh immigrants ...
    • It sounds like ships can be built of immigrants.

This is one random section only; I have not attempted to read the entire article. I suggest the article is not ready for FAC, and should be withdrawn so that an independent copyedit can be performed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:28, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Thanks for comments. But seeing how the article has been here for nearly two months, I would like a chance to go through it in the next few days and attempt to copyedit it. If you (or anyone else) still feels it isn't good enough then I'll concede the point, but I'd at least like to be given a chance to do so. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I saw how far back the backlog went (many FACs that are two months old), and started at the bottom of the page, trying to quickly give the coords at least some feedback to help reduce the backlog. Sorry I couldn't do more with the limited time I have. Best of luck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'll be finished by Sunday evening, North America time, so if there is still considerable issues found after then I'll not oppose a close/withdrawal. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:07, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SandyGeorgia: Apologies for being a day late, but I've gone through and copyedited the article. If you would like to take a look I'll be happy to hear your thoughts. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No apologies needed! As I don't like to be drug into line-by-line reviewing of entire articles, I will take two sample sections, beginning at Personal life, which is followed by Marriage and family. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:53, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The opinion that this is unusual for hockey players needs attribution. "Raised a Methodist, Taylor never drank alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or cursed, which was unusual for hockey players."
  • Devout, according to dictionary.com, means "devoted to divine worship or service; pious; religious", "He attributed these values to his religiously devout mother" is redundant. Perhaps you could use "to his mother's religious devotion".
  • "His family were staunch supporters of the federal Conservative Party, which proved a delicate situation when Taylor was offered a position in the Immigration Department upon his move to Ottawa, as the Liberal Party was in power at the time and the officers he met were all Liberals." But we are given no idea how this "delicate situation" affected him or what the consequences were; the reader doesn't know why the statement is there. We suddenly transition to scouting.
  • "In the summer of 1908 Taylor helped found Scout troop No. 7 in Ottawa" needs an WP:NBSP to keep the No. and 7 together (NBSPs are needed throughout the article, this is one sample).
  • Known for his "way with words" and "admired for his easy, courtly manner," ... MOS:LQ, the last ," should be ", (check needed throughout).
  • Taylor also was known to be well-dressed throughout his playing career. Is this intended to make us think he stopped dressing well after he stopped playing hockey?
  • The citations link to an archive preview of Whitehead 1977 that does not always include a preview of the page cited. Linking a book to a partial preview is not useful; what can be done instead in these cases is to link in the page number parameter when that page is available in preview. (I am unaware whether the thinking in this area has changed since I was FAC delegate, but linking to book previews that did not contain the cited page was discouraged.)
  • embellished by reporters due to his fame from hockey --> due to his hockey fame may be simpler, not a big deal though.
  • League officials considered banning Taylor over the incident, however due to his ability to draw large crowds, they ultimately let him play the rest of the season.
    • League officials considered banning Taylor over the incident, but because he drew large crowds, they let him play the rest of the season.
  • This is what Tony1 used to call a "snake", in that it goes on and on and winds around :)
  • She was not impressed with Taylor, whose own background was of a lower social standing and did not like the idea of her daughter being with a hockey player, a feeling shared by Cook's six siblings (her father had worked in the Interior Department before his death).
It needs to be split into two or three sentences, and the relationship between the rest of the sentence and the parenthetical about her father is unclear.
  • Another sentence made overly long by the addition of a parenthetical; the entire thing might be recast as two sentences, putting how much he was earning first. Should there not be a comma after animosity?
  • Despite this animosity Taylor resolved to win the family over, and decided he would save $10,000 to prove his worth, a project that took him six years (at the time he was making a combined $2,800 between his two jobs).
  • Taylor married Cook ... she married him, too, so this construct has always struck me as somewhat sexist ... Taylor and Cook were married ?
  • Ugh :) Their honeymoon saw them go to New York, ... WP:OVERLINK on honeymoon, a common term, and how about, they went to New York on their honeymoon?
  • Change in tense mid-sentence: The couple would move to Vancouver after the series ended and spent the rest of their lives there.

Adding one from Legacy, that I saw when I closed the page, that has parentheses inside parentheses, and "snakes" as well:

  • Not noted for his physical stature (he was listed as being 5 ft 8 in (1.73 m) and 165 pounds (75 kg) during his career, an average size for a hockey player in the era), he was more known for his speed and creativity than anything else. How about ...
    • Listed as 5 ft 8 in (1.73 m) and 165 pounds (75 kg) during his career, he was an average size for a hockey player of his era; he was known more for speed and creativity than for his physical prowess.
But I find it odd to encounter this basic personal information so late in the article; perhaps it can be moved to somewhere within his career.

And in the lead:

  • In 1914 Taylor was the first Canadian official to board the Komagata Maru, a major incident relating to Canadian immigration.
  • The Komagata Maru is a ship; it can't be an incident. In a major Canadian immigration incident?

Your copyedit improved things, but there's still a way to go on prose and MOS issues. Giants2008 is a really good sports editor; perhaps he will help. That's all I have time for, good luck here, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:53, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

KM, I think it'd be best to look at an independent copyedit, and/or see if Giants can get involved, so we should close this. Given your earlier comment from 04:07, 19 December 2019, I'm happy to treat the closure as a withdrawal FWIW... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:48, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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