User talk:OLLSZCZ

Birmingham Pheonix, colour and syntax

Hello. I've gone back to the simpler tables which I edited down on this page. The reasons for this are:

• the table is much simpler - I was really confused when I read the original version about where the team had finished - and I follow cricket in the UK closely. Was it 3rd or 1st or something else?
  • to my mind, it makes no sense at all to have two separate tables for the seasons and I can't think of another example where we do that
• the table syntax is much simpler - the additional rowspans are complex and the use of span tags and then bolding using wiki markup is incredibly complex - and I've been known to write HTML tables by hand for over 25 years
  • the empty black column between each part of the table is particularly difficult to understand
  • I considered splitting the tables into men's and women's and might end up doing that. From an accessibility point of view this would probably be a better approach to take
• the colours add nothing to the article other than to prettify it. I don't believe that's necessary and I do believe that it makes it harder to read the tables, particularly on a small screen or if you have issues with reading colours or with visual impairment
  • I don't understand why you had 3rd and 1st both coloured what looks like gold - and seems, at first glance, to be the same colour
  • for me this is a significant accessibility issue - both the orange text on black and the white text on orange lack sufficient contrast in my view
  • for me, accessibility trumps any cosmetic benefit - although I don't see the cosmetic benefit either

I'll note as well that there are no sources and we lack prose to place the tables in context. They could be removed for both reasons. This would be a much better use of time. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation regarding the table.

• regarding the confusion, I can understand from a different perspective now how it would be confusing, however the current layout you have suggested provides no information if the team has reached the knockout stages. You can be 1st during the group stage, yet win in the play-off knockout stage. Birmingham Phoenix finished 1st (men) and 3rd (women) in the group stage. Both teams then lost in their eliminator games, the women finishing 3rd at the conclusion of the tournament, the men finishing 2nd.
  • regarding the two tables, there are examples of where this additional information is beneficial, after all, the group stage result and the final tournament result are different things. For instance; Tom Brady#NFL career statistics, however as a compromise and as the hundreds format is more akin to American competitions, I will next set it out like is shown on List of LA Galaxy seasons. I will then add notes for the eliminator games so that it lists the games played, won, lost, etc. so the information is still there but not directly on a table.
• regarding the splitting of the tables, as this will lead to less confusion overall I will try to use this.
• regarding colours adding nothing, again, I can see your point, but what is confusing is to why you haven't removed colours from other areas of the article. I would say the contrast of orange and black/white is easier to see than the gold and red shown by the teams player list, and these are not even the colours of Birmingham Phoenix. I can see your argument for removing colour as an accessibility concern/adding nothing but cosmetic looks. But then it is surely all removed for the same reason?
  • regarding the colours of bronze and gold, I will make sure these are clearer, but I will be leaving them on as it is normal for these to occur on sports pages regarding finishing position.
• regarding references, references added.

Thank you. OLLSZCZ (talk) 09:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that looks a lot better. I've done a little tweaking and copyediting - and it could use a prose introduction. In particular I've removed the colours for the group stage - it makes it look as if the team won something in that stage to me. Hope that's OK.

I've also removed the colours from the squad table - thanks for reminding me; I literally ran out of time as I'm not regularly anywhere near a computer for a while now. I've tried to tweak a couple of things in that section as well to remove quite so much stuff in the TOC. I'm not entirely sure that it works for the captains section - can you think of a different way to do this? Personally I'm not sure we need this information here and am particularly unhappy with the stand in captains being shown - it's something that tends to lead to very long lists in time. Perhaps these would be better on the season articles? (which I need to get to at some point to deal with the flags.

The one other thing you might be able to help me with straight away is the colour boxes on the main article. These need checking first and then text added to go with the colour boxes.

Then, if you're happy with the changes I've made, I suggest we use this as a template for the other team articles? Blue Square Thing (talk) 06:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your edit removing the colours from the squad table - please feel free to share your general thoughts at the talk page. It would be really helpful to get your perspective.

I've just gone through 2021 Birmingham Phoenix season to try to see what it would look like with this sorts of edits that I'm thinking about. I've moved some things around as well - this is all a bit experimental. I've also used a collapsible version of the matches which takes up a little less real estate. I'd be interested in your thoughts when you get the chance - I've made notes in the edit summaries to explain most things as well I think. Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:12, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi. I think the changes you have made on the season page massively improves the look and ease of the article. I have no complaints about any of the changes, but may suggest that the collapsible version of the matches is also used for the eliminator games. Other than that, its a really positive change overall. OLLSZCZ (talk) 09:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I;m not sure about the eliminator - on whole season pages we'd tend to keep those expanded (so, on 2022 season of the hundred. I'm not certain whether it would work or not on a team season page - by all means try it and see what it looks like - the syntax is dead easy. Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:35, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, so I think I've worked through all the Birmingham pages and done the sort of things we agreed on. Can you have a quick check and let me know if there's anything that doesn't make sense at some point please? I'll probably sort the squad tables out first for the other pages - there are some find and replace routines that I can use to shortcut those. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

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