User talk:Keresaspa/Archive 9

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Billy Wright's dad

Keresaspa, would you happen to know where Billy's dad worked in Wolverhampton? Does it say in any of the books you have on him? Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

No joy I'm afraid. They all agree Wolverhampton but not where exactly. There were umpteen factories in the Black Country then so it's anybody's guess really. Oh and an image of the memorial plaque now appears in Squeak's article as promised. Keresaspa (talk) 20:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks anyway. Oh, the images you added to Squeak's article look good. That new mural certainly looks more menacing than the previous one. I wonder if it was painted by the same people. When I was there I actually saw a couple of guys painting another mural close by. They were surrounded by a group of admirers; one of whom I asked directions.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

There are about three or four new ones in the lower Newtownards Road area all of similar style but pretty different to the one that used to be there so I suspect it might be different people. I passed the painters on another one in the area recently but they were very nondescript looking. There is a mural in Cregagh that is very similar in style to the old one in Ballymac but I haven't been in Cregagh in months so it's possible it might have been redone as well. Given the attack on the Short Strand last summer I think the East Belfast UVF is looking to flex its muscles so more paramilitarised murals are the order of the day. Keresaspa (talk) 19:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The guy I got directions from was as I recall tall and very nice-looking. Not in the least bit threatening although he had the slightly-inqusitive Belfast look (Polite, friendly, but "what are ye doin' in are wee neighbourhood, like"?) All the guys surrounding the mural-painters stopped to stare at me and my son but the guy reassured them that I was legit. My tactic when coming upon a group of dodgy guys is to seek out the best-looking of the lot and ask directions. My reasoning is that their good looks assure that they can get plenty of girls so likely have no latent hostility against women as many ugly guys harbour. Also by asking directions you are telling them your reason for being in their street. I have heard of the "Beast from the East", who is obviously the new East Belfast UVF commander. Oh, this place is so delightful. I posted a question regarding a photo over at Ref Desk Humanities and an editor just couldn't resist the temptation to put me down with a sarky reply. Jesus wept.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Different person then as it was some wee ugly guy painting the new ones. Interesting logic you use there too; not sure if it's true as I'm an ugly git myself :D Beast from the East turns up in the Sunday World and Sunday Life a lot although I rarely read either unless I fancy a weekend laugh at the fictitious scaremongering that passes for journalism these days. Supposedly it was his handiwork that ensured Naomi Long got elected as he got sick of Robbo's corruption. Gina Adair was in the Sunday World a few months back, apparently having ditched Johnny and shacked up with a Nazi skinhead round Manchester way. There was a bunch of them giving the Nazi salute whilst a clearly high Gina cavorted about in a belt of a skirt. Silly old moo! Mind you the longer hair suited her. And I've told you before about Ref Desks and places like that. Without meaning to editorialise they are, for the most part, full of wankers, pardon my French. Keresaspa (talk) 18:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't that read as wanquers? OMG, I've just invented a new word LOL. Keresaspa, if ye look like a younger Billy "Head Buck Cat" Hanna, then you are definitly not an ugly git!!!!!! I wonder who the Beast of the East is? His nickname doesn't sound reassuring.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah you, you're too kind :) And I reckon wanquers is a very apt description of that sort! Not sure who the Beast from the East is myself. Only clues I can get is that he is an ex-prisoner and from a well-known loyalist family which doesn't exactly narrow it down much. Could be any one of hundreds in that case! He's apparently a bit of a renegade from the main UVF leadership, which I suppose would explain why the local UVF murals round there have become so threatening when those everywhere else seem to be in the process of replacement with murals about the original UVF and the Battle of the Somme. Keresaspa (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Well-known loyalist family...hmmm as you say, it doesn't really narrow it down. I want to create a new article but I don't know who or what to write about. Today a cyclone from the Sahara is headed our way...strong winds, high waves, flooding. All the schools have been closed as a precaution. It's meant to hit the entire eastern coast of Sicily where I live (Lucky me). Mad March weather!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Yikes! I didn't think Sicily got that sort of weather. The weather is actually unusually good here. Mind you the East Belfast UVF is on the march, having apparently been behind two bomb attacks in Sydenham last night, and some mob called Republican Action Against Drugs is supposedly girding its loins for a grand alliance with the dissident republicans so we might be due some metaphorical cyclones of our own. It wouldn't be Belfast without it! Keresaspa (talk) 19:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

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The Perfect Storm

Well, after so much dreadful warnings and anticipation the perfect storm never arrived. Oh well. I see the Beast from the East is also known as "Ugly Doris" due to his blond hair being somewhat like that of Jim "Doris Day" Gray.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:33, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

If I didn't know better I would have thought that William "Spud" Murphy had changed sides from UDA to UVF! Keresaspa (talk) 15:51, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually it appears it might be a relative of his but I suppose I should say no more for lack of proof and all that. Keresaspa (talk) 15:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Another loyalist named Murphy?!! I'll bet he has roots in Sailortown. Wait till you hear this. A hit-and-run editor, whom I have never heard of, removed the info I added about The Troubles on the Sandy Row article saying it didn't belong on a geographical article!!!!! Not a word about the work I put into it expanding it from a stub to a proper article. Nooooo that would be expecting too much around here. I quickly restored the deleted text.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:22, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Why are people with redlinked user pages always the worst sort of "my way or the highway" editors? I've had a few like that in my time. They can be persistent little buggers too - the travails I had on National Party (UK, 1976) back in the day because one of those sort of editors hated the fact that there was a wing of the party that Strasserite and kept coming back to remove it despite sourcing. Theoretically they can be warned off but I reckon we've annoyed too many of the gerbils to get anybody to support us in dishing out justified warnings! I would also love to see the Wikipedia policy that delineates certain articles as "geographic" only and states that any discussion of the history of an area has to be left out of such articles. Nonsense! Keresaspa (talk) 18:39, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I have noticed that "my way or the highway" attitude prevalent in red-linked users. Obviously this particular editor's mind-boggling 50 edits - all made over the last five years, mind - entitles him/her to bulldoze through articles determining what text is appropriate, what text should be deleted, etc.. As to the suggestion that "decades-old crimes" committed in Sandy Row should be moved to the Troubles or UDA articles reveals how thoroughly familiar he/she is with Wikipedia policy and MoS. Hmm... on second thought, I wonder if perhaps this editor is right after all and Sandy Row should just contain information about its fauna and flora! Jesus wept.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:32, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

He'll probably tell you he is King of Sandy Row or something as another of their favourite tactics is to claim extensive personal knowledge of a topic. I've had red users tell me they are people's sons, ex-lovers and former members of parties and that thus they know more about it than me. In the latter case the person in question was using a school IP address and claiming to be a former leading member of a party that went belly-up in the 70s. And if you started merging everything you have contributed about the UDA to their article it would very quickly become the longest article in the history of Wikipedia ever and probably make this site explode or something. Still like you say nobody deserves authority more than somebody who visits every couple of years. Morons. Keresaspa (talk) 00:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

They are like absentee landlords. After a spell away, they come swirling back onto the scene and immediately take charge, assuming their word is law and should be automatically obeyed. Yes, I can see adding a whole section to the UDA article: UDA actions in Sandy Row, followed by UDA actions on the Shankill Road, Shore Road, Donegall Road, Lisburn, etc, etc.!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:10, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah that would work great wouldn't it? I'm sure the page would only take about an hour to load on the average computer. People need to think these things through before laying down the law. Keresaspa (talk) 18:44, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Best-dressed loyalist

Wouldn't you agree with me that Jackie McDonald has to be the best-dressed loyalist in Northern Ireland? Certainly beats Adair and Jim Craig when it comes to style as can be seen here: [1]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:32, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I think ZZ Top had a song about him. Adair just dressed like a hood most of the time, apart from when he used to put those huge-knotted ties on. Keresaspa (talk) 18:45, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

The Kinks had a song: with Jackie in mind. What about this guy's fashion sense?!! Pretty in pink. LOL.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:27, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I tell you Jim Gray must have been the hardest of the lot of them because even now if you walked about Belfast dressed like that you would be lucky to get ten yards without a right kicking :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of kicking, I just read on a republican blog where a blogger claimed he was in the Crum in 1976 when Robin Jackson was also there on remand. This blogger claimed a Catholic screw let him into Jackson's cell. Once inside the blogger gave Jackson a "good kicking"!!!! Nobody even challenged his claim nor asked him to elaborate.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

What's the bet that said "republican prisoner" is some 16 years old from Wisconsin who has read RJ's Wikipedia article? People can claim anything on blogs really and given the way the prison service was back then I rather suspect it would have been guards letting Jacko into republican cells. Keresaspa (talk) 18:38, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Or some late-middle-aged armchair warrior who regrets having "missed it all".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Quite possibly. It's amazing some of the ludicrous claims people will make behind the anonymity of a computer screen. Of course he could be telling the truth but I seriously doubt it and indeed I suspect if it had happened it's the sort of thing you might keep quiet. Keresaspa (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Especially seeing as Catholic screws in Crumlin Road were quite rare in 1976 and by claiming on a public forum that one of them allowed him to attack Jacko would be foolish and dangerous. Soehow I doubt that the genuine article would be so careless.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

If you want to read the blog it's: RUC collusion in Miami Showband attack. Google it by typing Robin Jackal Jackson Dixie Elliot.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Seen it now - I'm not buying it to be honest. Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

It appears as if our wee Dixie isn't from Wisconsin after all. Check this out: [2]. I still don't buy the story about him having attacked Jacko. No Catholic screw would be so reckless as to allow an IRA man inside the cell of a loyalist like Robin Jackson. Retaliation would have been very swift and lethal. I do believe him when he says they were both in Crumlin Road together as the dates fit. You notice how he took an extract from the Miami Showband killings article to support his POV that Nairac was at the scene of the attack. What he failed to do, however, is publish what I had written regarding the unlikihood of Nairac having been a participant. I wrote most of the article, there is scant evidence for Nairac involvement; what's more, it's known he went back to England sometime in the summer of 1975.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh is it him? I vaguely know him. Don't believe him either. I see somebody has been lifted as head of the East Belfast UVF. Assuming this is the Beast from the East (?) then it's not who politics.ie claimed it was. Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I've heard of him. I imagine it is the Beast from the East as everything fits, age, location, etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:24, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Sandy Row

Recognise anybody in this slideshow of Sandy Row: [3]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:14, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

That's you that is! Shame about the choice what with Jonathan King being a nonce and all. Keresaspa (talk) 03:14, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I like the song, actually. It provides a really sentimental, poignant backdrop to the old photos. I confess to having a strong maudlin streak and old songs like King's really move me to tears. You know, I recall when that photo was taken of me. I can clearly see myself walking from the street onto the derelict site. My friend told me it was a bomb site. The murals were so primitive and crudely-painted back then and the writing just scrawls mainly using people's names.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

He's a convicted child molester - nonce is a slang word in the British isles for paedophile. There about two of those old school murals left, one in the streets at the back of lower Newtownards Road and the other in the Grove area round York Road. It's pretty much a professional business these days. Keresaspa (talk) 16:14, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I have never heard of nonce. Ponce I heard all the time, which I understood to mean a pimp or someone who makes a habit of living off others; hence the verb to ponce. Never nonce though. When was King convicted? Oh I absolutely hate paedophilia..it just makes my skin crawl. And it's so out-of-control. The sickening thing about it is it usually involves well-to-do, seemingly respectable men, whom one would never even suspect. That's truly frightening. According to Ike Turner's article he was molested as a child by women, so not just a male thing. I just read over on the Belfast Forum ( a great font of information) that the old bakery on Hunter Street wher Anne Ogilby was beaten to death was not only used as a UDA club but also an arms dump! One guy recounted a grisly tale back in 1972/73 when he was a child about finding what looked to be a human head in one of the disused ovens. The RUC were called out, a crowd naturally had gathered but the head turned out to have been a football someone had placed in the oven.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:49, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Ponce was indeed a pimp, although more recently it has also become a more general insult for somebody who is a bit of a show-off or comes across as trying too hard. Only Fools and Horses played a big part in the second meaning as it was part of the vernacular the characters used, much of which has entered wider currency given the show's massive popularity. To the best of my awareness it began in London gangland slang in the immediate post-war years when it was apparently applied to a group of Maltese immigrants who muscled in on local prostitution rackets, possibly as a word from the Maltese language. Nonce probably came from the same root although like a lot of slang nobody can be sure. King was given seven years in 2001 for six offences although there has been a bunch of claims by others in the press since. It wasn't long after Gary Glitter so he got a bit lost in the furore over him, Glitter being probably the top paedophile hate figure in this part of the world. It sickens me too to be honest, especially coming from the island of Ireland where it seems to have been bloody rampant. I just can't comprehend how anybody could be that sadistic and selfish to destroy a defenceless kid like that. And you're right about it not just being men - this sick cow made the news a few years ago whilst there was a documentary on not too long ago where Antony Worrall Thompson discussed being molested by a female working at the boarding school he attended. Vile. And on a slightly lighter note I'm not long off Belfastforum myself. Some interesting stuff on there no question, although I take a lot of with a pinch of salt personally, mostly from personal experience of elderly relatives and their tall tales :D Keresaspa (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Vile indeed. What's horrifying are the number of paedophilia rings where perverts trade photos, etc. Poor little kids. How could anybody do such things to helpless infants? The perps definitely need to be put under lock and key for a very long time.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:15, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Horrific really isn't it and so many examples of it have come out now. Whatever perverted nonsense consenting adults want to get up to is up to them but leave children out of it for God's sake. Keresaspa (talk) 17:17, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Look what I just came across: Mackenzie Phillips. My God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:22, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Jesus that's harrowing stuff, especially the bit about how she was so socialised into expecting the abuse that it almost became consensual. It's a sick sad world sometimes. Keresaspa (talk) 17:25, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

And we only know about the cases which have been made public. Think of those who endure sexual abuse in silence. The numbers are likely very, very high.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:31, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. There's still a stigma so a lot of people would keep quiet. Who knows the full extent? Keresaspa (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

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Discovery

Look what I came across:[4]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:46, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Apart from Tyrie, do you recognise these guys here: [5]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Not ringing any bells offhand, no. Keresaspa (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Nice one

I like your latest article. It was the hardest hit area in the Belfast Blitz as the Luftwaffe had specifically targeted the Waterworks. I believe most of the fatalities occurred there. Happy Days, I woke up this morning to a lovely surprise. Another absentee landlord - albeit one with a blue user name - decided that the B-Classed 1989 Jonesborough ambush article needed a major revision which included the deletion of an entire section, other texted info including autopsy reports, and typos galore. All of this took me hours to fix up. I left him a message on his talk page. This was his first edit in about 2 years. He chose an article over which I had laboured many days and indeed weeks as it's a controversial, hot topic and I wanted it to be as complete and NPOV as possible. God, I was pissed off to say the least. I couldn't revert his edit as there were other edits made after him cleaning up his messed up refs, etc; so I was forced to rewrite and reref everything he had deleted!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:24, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Look at the history of that editor's talk page - (s)he's had warnings for similar POV editing in the past but has deleted them without archiving, all of which is usually the sure sign of a bloody nuisance. And glad you liked the new article. If you have anything to add get stuck in as I'm struggling a bit with the history section other than the Troubles and it sounds like you know about the Blitz round there. Keresaspa (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I had been planning on looking up stuff about the Blitz to add to Antrim Road when I saw the shambles the editor made on the Jonesborough ambush article. Did you see what I had to do to clean up after him? I was really thoroughly livid so I was. I believe Dervla Murphy wrote stuff about the Antrim Road in her book referring to it as the "Murder Mile".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:39, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit in a situation like that I would have been lazy and restored my own last version. That's devotion for you that you actually did it the long way. Keresaspa (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

(small voice) I have to confess I don't know how to do that. How does one undo all the edits made in the interval? I wonder if he'll respond to my message on his or her talk page?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't quote me on this as it might be against some arcane rule but click on the "View History" bit at the top of the page to get into the list of previous edits. If you click on any underlined time and date to the left of a name it will take you to the version of the page as it stood at that time. Go to your preferred version and click edit as if it was a normal page. You can't actually change this archive version but you can copy it in its entirety with the standard select all and copy method. Having done that go to the actual current page, click edit as normal then delete the entire contents and paste what you copied from the earlier version. The save it, thus making the old version the current version without having to sift through a bunch of old edits deciding what to reverse and what to keep. It's possible that some good edits in between might be obliterated this way but you can see through that same View History part if any of those were any good and if so you can restore them manually if you wish. I've had to do it a couple of times on fascism-related article when some bonehead comes along and suddenly rewrites something as an extended love-note to their favourite Nazi nutter. From what I can see from the Jonesborough article the only intermediate edits were by Dagos Navy trying to clear up some of the mess this joker had made so it probably would not have been an issue in this case. Keresaspa (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposal - a new scope for fascism task force

I have proposed a new scope for fascism task force. Please express your opinion in the task force's talk page. Thank you!

Sapere aude22 (talk) 16:29, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

John Irvine?

I added a bit to the Antrim Road article this morning. I'm curious about something. Is senior UVF man John Irvine the same guy as Brigade Staff member Jackie Irvine?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Seemingly it is as all the UVF Bebo sites and the like list Jackie Irvine on their rolls of honour and this image of the killing calls him Jackie. Good additions by the way - I knew that Blitz section would turn out top notch in your hands. Keresaspa (talk) 23:02, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I really didn't add that much info. Oh, there's a debate on Talk:1989 Jonesborough ambush whether it's necessary to include the Down Orange Welfare section. It would be a pity if it were removed as any allegation of collusion is very pertinent to the event.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:45, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I've stuck my tuppence in but to be honest I can add nothing to what you argue other than my support as you have all the points covered. Keresaspa (talk) 18:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

That user is really beginning to piss me off with tossing WP this and WP that all over the talk page. All it boils down to is that he/she has a strong POV and wants to get his/her own way here at the expense of an article which I happen to feel is one of the best I created on Troubles-issues. My other personal favourites are Robin Jackson, Billy Hanna, Anne Ogilby killing, Tandragee killings, and 1972 and 1973 Dublin bombings. This article has been stable up to now until this editor came along after a 22-month absence and started to throw his or her weight around. IMO, he/she has a personal interest at stake and is seeking to exonerate the memory of Officer Breen. Wikipedia is not the place to do this. I attempted to compromise but this editor unfortunately has a my way or the highway attitude.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it always the way? If somebody has a bee in their bonnet about something minor on here they can be a right pain in the arse. Keresaspa (talk) 17:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes and they are the type of editors who cause established editors to stop creating new pages. I haven't creating a new article since Squeak. When I have a stable page that I put weeks of my time into, not just building into, but polishing it, then to have someone come along after a 2 year hibernation and undertake a major revision! It's enough to put anyone off. Now there's that ongoing debate. Did you see what he/she added on th talk page? WP this, WP that....All on the basis of I don't like it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Antrim Road was my first one in a while because it is becoming a lot of hassle. I suppose it is inevitable really given that NI always causes dissension but I really don't the argument (s)he is making about NPOV, which is about editors adding their own slant. How can quoting directly from sources be you adding your point of view? There again their obsession with arbitration does rather hint that a lot of it is about getting attention too. And is it just me or does anybody who starts a reply with the phrases "with all due respect" or "your comment is appreciated" inevitably have no respect or appreciation for other people's comments? Keresaspa (talk) 19:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

LOL. Oh I see he /she has suggested that (gulp) the article's title should be changed. To what?!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Probably something like "God bless the lovely Officer Breen". Keresaspa (talk) 20:25, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I like I like

What a fantastic and truly professional photo. I like the swan flapping its wings. On a completely different note wouldn't you agree that the Winston Churchill Rea article needs some fleshing out?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Cheers. The Waterworks is one of my favourite places in Belfast to be honest as I'm a big fan of geese and the cheeky ones there will happily come right up to you and take food from your hand. The man made, lake, stream and wetland habitats are all so well designed too and whilst I like the wild I hate being out of the city so it is really the best of both worlds. I've criticised Belfast City Council a lot, usually with just cause, but I'm happy to go on record as saying that the Waterworks is one of their rare triumphs as it's a great place to kill an hour. Winkie Rea does need expanding but I seem to recall there being a slight source problem for that article when it first came around. I'll see if I can turn anything though. I didn't realise he founded the 1st Norn Iron club on the Shankill - that place has a Manson Family vibe about it! Keresaspa (talk) 18:45, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

It looks lovely. Actually your photo reminds me of some of the posh Thames-side areas outside London such as Henley-on-Thames where George Harrison lived. Another lovely place in Belfast is Stranmillis. I went to a party there. Most of the guests were natives of Belfast who spoke with fake English accents. They were all extremely pleasant I must add. One guy from Dundonald chatted me up.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:16, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

My sister lives in Stranmillis. A lot of students round there now although parts of it are still decent. Keresaspa (talk) 17:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I liked the place myself. I have an account on Belfast Forum. I love that site...it's full of anecdotes and old photos.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not a bad place really. I was a ta few parties round that way myself back in the day too. Keresaspa (talk) 19:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Ever seen this?

Have you ever seen this transmission? [6] Willie Gallagher is very candid, wouldn't you agree? I notice that whilst Crip McWilliams and Jackie McDonald have strong Belfast accents their speech is nevertheless very different from one another with McDonald's accent being much slower.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I think I recall seeing that when it was on UTV. Crip has would I would call an "aye, leek" accent - the sort of really rough voice that spides use. Jackie has an older sort of Belfast voice, the sort market traders and taxi drivers often have. They're probably not too far apart in age but Crip is definitely the srot I would expect from a younger guy. Keresaspa (talk) 18:57, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Luckily there was no mirror inside the prison van otherwise Crip might have shot himself leek instead of wee Billy. The resemblance is a bit uncanny.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

It's freaky isn't it? I seem to recall a similar thing happening when Jim Gray was shot and a large blond man was arrested. Keresaspa (talk) 20:24, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess the latter wanted to be the only blondie around the joint...couldn't take the competition...LOL. Who was he by the way?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:33, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

William "Spud" Murphy. He was Gray's right-hand man in the "Spice Boys" gang of east Belfast UDA blinged-up thugs. He bore a bit of a resemblance to Gray and had the peroxide hair just like him. Murphy was arrested when Gray was killed as one theory was that Gray had been shot after falling out with his own lieutenants but he was released without charge. He was the politics.ie seemed to think was related to the Best from the East, although now that his name is out they might have been wrong. There was another rumour about the pair of them that I couldn't get into here due to BLP restrictions. Let's just say supposedly Murphy had trouble sitting down after seeing Gray.... Keresaspa (talk) 20:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if that's what inspired the mural dedicated to Gray in East Belfast: Rest in Pink?!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a pity that's not still around as a picture would have made a nice, if slightly macabre, addition to Jim Gray's article. Keresaspa (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

It can always be re-painted! (Joking).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:11, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I never got the hang of the spray cans and graffiti and all that. I would be too busy checking for grammatical errors :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Tates Avenue

Oh where exactly is Tates Avnue? Sandy Row or the Village?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Tates Avenue links the Lisburn Road to the Boucher Road. Donegall Avenue, Ebor Street and Tavanagh Street, all of which are part of the Village, link on to it so I suppose it's more or less the Village although some might argue it is too far south. Definitely not Sandy Row though, it's over a mile away. A lady I may have dallied with several years ago lives there these days! Keresaspa (talk) 20:28, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

A lady I may have dallied with??!! That sounds most intriguing, Keresaspa.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll say no more but one eyebrow is raised :D Keresaspa (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

How does one do that (raise just one eyebrow, that is)?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:42, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Watch enough Roger Moore movies and you'll soon get the hang of it :D Keresaspa (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Doubt it as I still cannot even manage to wink. This really put me at a disanvantage when it came to flirting in my younger days.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Just imagine you have something in your eye and there you are! Keresaspa (talk) 18:44, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't work.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:37, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Close one eye and open it again. That's all it is really. Keresaspa (talk) 23:13, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Sammy Smyth

I think he should have his own page but haven't been able to come up with much info. I had wanted to do an article on the Raymond McCord, Jr murder, but there are too many issues with BLP considering all those involved are living. That was a nasty event though.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:37, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I mentioned Smyth in an edit recently but can't remember where. Not sure about the sources myself though - do you have anything worthwhile for him or is it just all basic stuff? I've also thought about an article about Raymond McCord's killing or a stand alone article about his father myself a few times but have always backed away for the same reasons. Plus I rather suspect they would be a total vandal magnet - the Shore Road is awash with posters accusing the dad of being a republican agent and the uve seem absolutely determined that nobody will ever go down for that one. Keresaspa (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a very heavy topic especially seeing as most of those charged are still alive and free so there are BLP risks. We couldn't mention the uve head buck cat's name as it could also violate BLP. Ditto for accused RUC officers. Too dodgy a topic IMO. Oh, you did a fantastic job on the Sammy Smyth article. I'm glad you created it. I just couldn't find much info apart from his notorious comment after the Dublin bombings.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a shame in a way because it is a topic that would be worth covering but as you say there is so much that is widely known about the case that would have to omitted and because of that it would end up very incomplete. Probably better off forgetting about it unfortunately. And luckily McDonald and Cusack had a bunch of stuff on Sammy Smyth so thought I might as well go ahead and create the article using them as the main source. One of them seemed to have interviewed him before his killing so he featured prominently in the early chapters. Keresaspa (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Look what I found today

I remember taking this in the Falls Road but cannot recall if it's Divis Flats. I came across it today in an old album!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:54, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Those maroon panels at the sides of the windows are a giveaway - they're still there. Mind you the doors aren't that grotty any more. Do you remember if there was one or more tower blocks when you were there? There's only one left but there used to several more. Keresaspa (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe there were two but my memory ain't what it used to be. The fact that I automatically say Divis flats probably is an indication that there were indeed two at the time.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Just the one left now. When you think about it, they demolished the Pound Loney and threw those up and in order to cope with the building work they had to make a bunch of houses in Turf Lodge and Ballymurphy. Then less than thirty years later they tore them down and had to build a bunch of houses in Poleglass and Twinbrook to cope with that. Things would have been a lot more simple if they had just gradually redeveloped the Pound Loney in the manner they did with Sandy Row and the Markets. Apparently there's a one year waiting list to get a flat in the last tower block now. I can tell you this, I won't be adding my name to the list! Keresaspa (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

A view of our fellow Wikipedians

I wrote this a few years ago. What do you think? User:Jeanne boleyn/Wikipedians and their historical counterparts Although I did it in good fun I'm sure you'll recognise some of the people (Eric the Red, Napoleon, etc.)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

How many Napoleons have I encountered on here?! Far too many, I can tell you that. Vlad the Impalers too - they're just rampant. Good stuff, I enjoyed that. Keresaspa (talk) 18:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. As you'll recall, I just recently encountered a couple of Eric the Reds!!!! Highly annoying.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Did you ever get that fixed or is he still whining? Keresaspa (talk) 16:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

He hasn't been back since my last response to him at the talkpage. Hmm...perhaps I had a wee bit of acid on my fingertips when I replied What do you think?.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Ooh get you, girl. Ah, it needed saying. Far be it from me to spread mischief but if he does start looking arbitration a little note on the talk page of one of the republican cadre might be in order as I rather suspect they would be up in arms at the prospect of removing anything that might be construed as critical of the RUC! Keresaspa (talk) 18:11, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

What gets me is his/her arrogance. Thinking it would create no waves just to sail onto a Troubles-related article and make a major revision, complete with f..ked-up refs and deletions of sections and sentences?!! I spent more than a day clearing up after the shambles he/she made! I should have chewed him out instead of attempting to compromise! Next time I will.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:05, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

That's always the way isn't it? As far as they're concerned Wikipedia doesn't exist without them and their savant insight. Morons. Keresaspa (talk) 16:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Page number

Keresaspa, when you get the chance could you please look up the page number in the Joe Tiernan book The Dublin and Monaghan Bombings 2010 where it says that Hanna and Jackson met up with the bomb team at a carpark on the northern outskirts of Dublin. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:40, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

96-97. Thankfully I remembered the story was around page 100 so I found it easily enough. Keresaspa (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Old Monkees clip

Check out Johnny Adair at 46 seconds into the clip (LOL): The Monkees. Take a Giant Step--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, nice one. That's just him alright. Wouldn't it be a real let down if it turned out they had actually invented time travel but they had only used it to send Johnny Adair back to the 60s to appear in an episode of the Monkees :D Keresaspa (talk) 16:11, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

LOL. He would have most likely wanted to be one of the Monkees himself, then demanded that the others all shave their heads to look like him!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

He would probably have demanded a cut of Michael Nesmith's Tipp-Ex money. Mind you I could just see wee Johnny belting out "last Train to Clarksville". Keresaspa (talk) 18:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Or I'm a Believer with Legs featuring in the accompanying video.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I could see that one - maybe with Gina in the background grinding her teeth! Keresaspa (talk) 18:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Gina would have insisted on doing the backup vocals as well as the go-go dancing which featured in all 60s clips.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:40, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Now that's an image I could definitely do without :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:42, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The more I watch this clip, the more I'm convinced it is Johnny Adair!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

It's just too much like him! Keresaspa (talk) 17:30, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Even his expression is the same as Adair's. Uncanny.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

More arrogance mainfested

Another place to find arrogant Wikipedias are the various ref desks. People literally demand that you answer their questions and then if the replies fail to satisfy they launch verbal attacks. Check out Ref Desk Humanities. Someone asked a question about whether planets shone or not then went ballistic when nobody provided the answers he sought. FFS....I once replied to a poster on Ref Desk Entertainment and he/she left a nasty message on my talk page. I told him to get the .f..k off my page until he learnt a wee bit of manners.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I never use those ever. The absolute dregs of humanity occupy those places, the sort who until recently spent all their time involved in flame wars on computer games forums but graduate to the Ref Desks when they get too old for that. And you just know they're the sort of people who wouldn't even be able to speak to you in real life but suddenly get very argumentative when hiding behind a computer screen. Keresaspa (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The thing is that some of the editors provide very informative, lengthy replies to the questions, yet the posters never bother their arses to say so much as "thank you". They seem to think it's their divine right to receive answers to their questions, no matter how inane. Another place to avoid is the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. It's like a sea full of circling sharks avid for the sight and scent of blood. Definitely a no-go area.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:14, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I think I went their a few years ago - never again. That aspect of Wikipedia (annoying little pedants sniping at each other) holds no interest for me. Edit some articles for God's sake! Keresaspa (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. I detest their childish "I'll report you" behaviour.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:54, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Murder on the Dancefloor

I came across this today. The IRA shooting of Portadown DJ Norman "Mooch" Kerr just 2 weeks after the Miami Showband massacre. Guess who he was friends with? Harris Boyle, who used to help him run his mobile disco!!!! Can you imagine going to a disco and seeing Harris Boyle's the DJ?!!! Mooch's killing has been totally overlooked by journalists. What's even more bizarre is that he bore an uncanny resemblance to Fran O'Toole!!!! You can see him here: [7]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

That's a new one on me I must admit, although the thought of Boyle at the decks does rather boggle the mind. I finally went to Portadown recently - what a dump! Keresaspa (talk) 23:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Did you take any interesting photos? I wonder what Boyle played when he was at the decks? Happiness is a Warm Gun, Ballroom Blitz, or Street-Fighting Man mayhap?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:59, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

No unfortunately. I went on the hop, was only there for a few hours and most of the interesting stuff has been painted over now. I was on the Garvaghy Road but it looks surprisingly run of the mill on a dull February afternoon. It's a grim, miserable town and I couldn't wait to get out of it to be honest. The only towns in NI I like are Bangor and Ballymena, although Downpatrick is fine once in a blue moon and Newtownabbey is good for shopping although the estates are a bit soul-destroying. And I'm sure HB was up there giving it some "Bang Bang" and "I'm Gonna Get Me A Gun" :D Keresaspa (talk) 14:16, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I have visited Omagh, Lisburn, Newry. Have you ver been to head buck cat's Lurgan?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been to Ahoghill, Ardglass, Ballycastle, Ballymena, Banbridge, Bangor, Carrickfergus, Carryduff, Downpatrick, Dundonald, Dundrum, County Down, Helen's Bay, Holywood, Killough (Mairead's dad lives there), Kircubbin, County Down, Lisburn, Maghera, Newcastle, Newry (for five minutes to throw up in the bus station), Newtownabbey, Newtownards, Newtownbreda (if that counts as a separate place nowadays), Portadown, Stroke City and Templepartick. I've not been west of the Bann much as I don't drive and, as the Newry line tells you, don't like to travel by bus. I've the notion to go to Lurgan as my great grandparents lived there and I want to see their old house but I've not got round to it yet. Keresaspa (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to go to Carrickfergus to see the castle - a de Burgh stronghold. Have you seen Mairead lately?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

We had a school trip to the castle back in 1991 and it was a nifty place. We had another to Dundrum in 1995, hence my visiting there, although it was a lot more ruined. Carrick was a bit of a South-East Antrim Brigade stronghold back in the day and I'm told the estates still have murals but I've never been in that part. And funnily enough I haven't seen Mairead in ages. I was talking to her sisters the other week but not seen her in a long time. Keresaspa (talk) 14:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully it won't be demolished and replaced with an apartment building! Has the Athletic Club been saved or is it now just a memory on the fastly disappearing Belfast cityscape? Do Mairead and Sean live in the Ormeau Road area? God, I have such fond memories of those two. Truly lovely people so they were.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:11, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Athletics is still standing and the ground floor is still occupied by a sports shop. I haven't heard anything more about that particular plan - hopefully they've wasted enough money on these bloody Titanic vanity projects that they can't afford demolishing it any more. The latest rubbish in that blasted "Titanic Quarter" is they're going to demolish The Oval (Belfast) and throw up a new stadium for Glentoran there. Great idea for a team that is crippled with debt and that is struggling to attract any crowds as they are playing so badly. Still, a fool and his money and God knows the council is full of fools! Mairead and Sean were still on the Ormeau last time I saw them, although their eldest daughter lives in Ardglass so they're down there a lot now too. Keresaspa (talk) 16:37, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Alex Kerr

Some IP keeps adding an unsourced DOB to the Alex Kerr article. I reverted him but he has changed it back. Seeing as he gave a 1963 DOB to Billy Elliot who in 1972 was already a colonel in the UDA makes it certain that the IP is a vandal.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The date given for Kerr is plausible but without a source it's worthless so I've reverted it too, although no doubt it will be added back before the day is out. Keresaspa (talk) 18:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I doubted it's veracity when I saw the date he gave for Billy Elliot - 4 January 1963!!! Are readers seriously expected to believe a 9 year-old boy was made a colonel in the UDA? He/she has already reverted me.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

If I remember rightly there's a one revert rule on NI articles but I have no idea who you contact once it has been breached. I'll revert the IP on Billy too but I'm sure (s)he will revert me too. Keresaspa (talk) 18:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Had to revert on Plum Smith as well. I suppose it could be that the anonymous editor is a close personal friend of all these guys but their location makes that doubtful to be honest! Keresaspa (talk) 18:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It appears the IP found the DOBs "in a book on the Troubles". I reverted him/her again on the Alex Kerr article. You did the right thing in putting up the citation needed template on Billy Elliot seeing as a 1953 DOB is possible albeit highly unlikely. If he/she doesn't add a source within a week I'll remove the 1953 DOB.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I left a note telling them to do so on their talk page but they are one of those bloody nuisances that ignores all correspondence. All Troubles articles have 1 revert rule that this character has broken several times but as usual nothing is ever done about bloody nuisances like this as admins are too busy harassing useful editors. This place gets dafter by the day! Keresaspa (talk) 16:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Look at their last edit summary on Alex Kerr. I can find no record whatsoever of this suppose book anywhere on Google. Might be time to open an administrator's board case on this one. Keresaspa (talk) 16:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything either on the book (whose title sounds very suspect) nor the author - Arthur Stone-Franklinson - who frankly probably does not exist; what's more only a skilled, investigative journalist with access to RUC files or vital records would be able to obtain these DOBs. IMO, this IP is some student in the USA doing an experiment here to see if he can show up Wikipedia editors as incompetent amateurs by deliberately inserting false info. What's disturbing is that admins haven't bothered levelling any sanctions against him. However, if it were a productive editor the guns would be already trained on that person. And the train wreck rolls on.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I looked on the British Library's catalogue - nothing. I tried just Arthur Stone in case - nada. I tried the title given - nowt. All of which leads to one conclusion - bullsh*t artist. I'm looking at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring but sounds like a lot of hassle for little reward. I think this is another in a long line of instances where disruptive liars are going to win. Keresaspa (talk) 16:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I just left a message regarding the IP and his annoying edits on User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid's talk page. He/she is an Irish admin. Hopefully some action will be taken aginst this disruptive IP.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice one. I don't think I know any admins or I would have done it myself. The same IP editor seems to be constantly reverting the Death of Osama bin Laden article to force in the word terrorist. Whoever this is they are far too disruptive and have to go! Keresaspa (talk) 17:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

As I said before my gut reaction is that it's a student looking to take the piss out of us. Picked the wrong editors, so he did!! He pretty much let the cat out of the bag with his pathetic title Important people in the Troubles. Had he come up with a more creative title and plausible author's name he might have been able to get away with it - well at least for about 5 minutes! BTW, I like the caveat you placed on Billy Elliot's talk page.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I did that in case I do take it to the admin noticeboard as it mentions there I might get banned too if I haven't attempted to discuss it on the article's talk page. Mind you that's the sort of nonsense would go on here. I reverted his last edit on the death of Osama page (something I've never previously edited but what the hey) but I don't doubt I'll be reverted there before long. You would have though that (s)he might have searched one of the library catalogues I mentioned and pulled out a real book title rather than making up something that sounds so juvenile. Heck everybody knows if you want to invent a fake reference you make up a title in German as there are so many books in German that never get translated. Keresaspa (talk) 17:49, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

From Billy Elliot to the death of Bin Laden is a major leap in disruptive editing. I shall wait with baited breath (wearing full body armour, mind) for the reactions from the editors on that page.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I've just noticed that the Death of Osama bin Laden is rated as a good article, something littering it with the word "terrorist" might jeopardise so it's time for the bud to nipped here. I also added an addendum to your note on Rannpháirtí anaithnid's just to let it be known that you weren't the onlyone getting annoyed by these silly edits. Keresaspa (talk) 18:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I've also just noticed that a guy by the name of ColinFine is having to battle this person's silly edits at History of London. Time for this one to go methinks. Keresaspa (talk) 18:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

This IP is a case of ambition without ability. And I fear he/she brings nothing to the party but discord.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:52, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

No arguments here - right blasted nuisance. Keresaspa (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I think I shall make a proposal at the Village Pump namely that all Troubles-related articles should be semi-protected and that only established editors with at least 50 edits to their history should be allowed to edit them. This disruption by IPs, redletter users, hit-and-run editors has gone on long enough. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Something definitely needs to be done as quality is being compromised too much. Not sure if they'll go for something that radical though. Keresaspa (talk) 22:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I gave the IP 24 hours to provide a reliable source and as he hasn't bothered to do so nor has he replied to our concerns, I've gone ahead and removed the obviously spurious DOBs on both the Kerr and Elliot articles.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Here's one for you - I was in the Public Records Office all day doing some genealogical research and on the off-chance I had a look at Charles Harding Smith's birth details. Surprise surprise our friend's so-called "book" is wrong. He wasn't born in 1943 he was born on 24 January 1931, a full thirteen years before "Heap Big Chief in the Troubles" or whatever the hell it is supposedly called allegedly claims. Because the records aren't viewable to the public I suppose they don't count as a reliable source but it certainly blows 1943 out of the water. It also finally answered another conundrum for me in that his surname is Smith rather than Harding Smith, with Harding just a middle name. Various sources seemed uncertain about that and I always wondered myself. Keresaspa (talk) 18:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice one! Sure, you can use the Public Records Office as a source. Oh, and I don't think Franklinson exists as a surname! LOL--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 21:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I've edited the article then. It will do until IP comes back and changes it to 43 I suppose, maybe with a new book by Umberto Gordon-Benjaminson or something! Keresaspa (talk) 23:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

By including Kerr along with Smith and Elliot, it would have meant the book to be a fairly recent one. And surely we would have encountered it at some stage whilst doing Google seaches on various loyalists. Thus I knew it was bogus. Especially with that daft author's name: Arthur Stone-Franklinson. Couldn't he have come up with at least an Irish name?!!!! I suppose he thought by using the name of a real loyalist (Stone) would convince us that it's an actual book on the Troubles. What's the IPs next serving: Loyalists who were sent for their tea by Sir Excalibur Adair-Tetleyson?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:02, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

There are couple of the main source on loyalism that I am only very vaguely familiar with but something that detailed I would definitely have encountered before as would you and several other editors on here yet, shock horror, it doesn't show up as a source in anybody else's edits. He might as well have went for Joey JoJo Junior Shabadoo as that daft Franklinson name! Keresaspa (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Newsflash: Jeanne Boleyn is a sociopath

Yep, that's what I have been called today. Here: Talk:Jimbo Wales. Near the bottom of the section "A Radical idea

BLP opt-out for all". LOL. You just gotta love this place. I wonder if that editor has the balls to say that to the face of someone who really was a sociopath like Lenny Murphy or William Moore? Bloody hell, people really flash a big pair behind the safety of a computer screen.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13: 48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I can't see it on that page. Can you point it out to me as my head's a bit foggy today. Keresaspa (talk) 22:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Scrub that I've seen it now on User talk:Jimbo Wales. I think when somebody has to resort to personal insults like that it is always a clear sign that you have won the argument. Keresaspa (talk) 23:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The major problem is that those type of people are so quick to label another with a personality disorder of which they have absolutely no knowledge. It's this pseudo-intellectual postering that I detest. Oh another guy (buddy of the former, no doubt) called me socially autistic. What the hell is that anyway, something their bearded, hippie-haired college professor tossed out to his students for effect? You'll notice that neither of these guys even bothered (or possibly couldn't) read my post properly. I call it the John Lennon Jesus syndrome where others take someone's comments completely out of context due to an inability to fully comprehend what they are hearing and/or reading.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey less of the beard-bashing I had one for years until I saw the light and went for a horseshoe moustache :D Yeah, but I know what you mean - these types are hell for throwing the epithets around when things don't go their way. As I said before it is cretins like that who keep me from getting involved in discussions on here. Keresaspa (talk) 18:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Manuel Gálvez

Thanks for updating the article about Manuel Gálvez. I have nominated it for the DYK project. Cambalachero (talk) 21:49, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I've been meaning to edit that one for a while but never got round to it. Keresaspa (talk) 23:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Tandragee too graphic

I see another editor removed the details about the killings as having been too graphic and not showing enough sensitivity to the families. Hmm.. I got the details from the trial and the parents' personal accounts of the grisly deaths their sons met. I wasn't trying to pull a Stephen King but rather to show how depraved the killings were - so much so that Gerry Adams was taken aback at the barbarity. So much for Wikipedia not being censored. Now if Paul McIlwaine or Anne Robb had contacted me complaining of the graphic details that would be a different matter. I respect your views, Keresaspa, so what's your opinion on the issue? Should I revert back to my version or let it go?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:26, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure to be honest. Not censored is correct and if you think it is important enough then stand your ground. But I notice the editor in question already has a warning on their talk page for edit warring so be prepared for another battle if you do. The edits haven't removed too much I suppose but I take your point that you wanted to underline the brutality of it all. I must admit I haven't encountered a situation like this before so I'm not sure what to advice unfortunately. Keresaspa (talk) 00:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave it for now so's to avoid possible edit-warring. Thanks for your advice. Happy Easter, Keresaspa!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:31, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

You could always add some back in at a later date. And happy Easter too. Keresaspa (talk) 22:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. One must always view Wikipedia through a Machiavellian lens. I received a delightful Easter's greeting on my talk page ....read it just before going to bed. So much for "sweet dreams"!!!! The poor wee IP was likely in bad form on account of the Easter Bunny neglecting to give him a chocolate egg or perhaps he came in last at the local Easter Egg Hunt. Hmm, you'll note he spells the "o" in cock as "0". No doubt a Freudian slip which comes of placing such a low value on his own apendage. LOL. Anyway, how did you spend your Easter?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:01, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow that's the IP's only edit - your fame is proceeding you round these parts :D Nothing quite as devastating as a total stranger giving you badly spelled abuse online is there?! My own Easter was mostly spent eating chocolate and getting a funny belly as a result. I gave up chocolate about a year and a half ago except for Christmas Day, Easter Sunday and my birthday as a result of which I have not only lost four and half stone but also find the stuff very hard to digest now. Keresaspa (talk) 16:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Fortunately the IP hasn't left me anymore messages. Most likely the composition of his charming little note to me put too much of a strain on his/her mental capacity, rendering him/her incapable of writing more. I love chocolate, especially the type which is used for Easter eggs, bunnies, etc. I also spent a quiet Easter-went to church, then spent the day in bed watching films on tv. The weather was rather fickle, so the beach was out of the question. I had originally planned to spend the long weekend at the beach, but the cold wind and frequent rain showers put an end to that. Honestly, I would have liked lazing on the beach. Have you any ideas for new articles? I was thinking of a few people but there's just no info on them. Perhaps, I'll go through the events on CAIN, see if I can find something.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

It rained pretty much constantly here and is still raining now so I did nothing of note over Easter as a result. Bleeding miserable the weather has been here recently. As for new articles, not a clue. Like you I've had a few ideas but been outfoxed by the lack of sources. Keresaspa (talk) 17:37, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Today was georgeous, so my kids and I went to the beach. Although it was too cold to bathe, I did get my feet wet and I got a bit of colour from sunbathing. I went for a walk along the seafront and took lots of splendid photos, the April light being excellent. The summer sun always produces too much glare to take decent photos of the sea.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow, pretty scene. I got my feet wet here too although it was hailstones did that :D Keresaspa (talk) 18:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I added most of the removed stuff back to the Tandragee killings article. How does it look now? I omitted the part about gutting a fish as this was likely the reason it was deemed "too graphic". The editor should have discussed his objections on the Talk page before removing text which served only to sanitise an attack that was notable for its sheer brutality. Therefore the details should be on the page. Oh, I found this. Even McIlwaine's own relatives decribe in detail the grisly details of the killing: [8]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:56, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear, I've just been reverted. Best leave it the way it is for now to avoid an edit war. I wonder what's his opinion on the Shankill Butchers article or perhaps that should be sanistised as well to just say Lenny and his gang used sharp knives on their victims which led to their deaths. After all we cannot be too descriptive here on Wikipedia!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately the days of discussing edits on here seem to be over and it just seems to be one edit war after another. A shame really but I suppose a free for all system was always destined to end up a bit of a mess. How long before Lenny Murphy's article reads "Lenny Murphy was a bad man who sent people to heaven"? We need a lot more Hegelian dialectics round these parts. Keresaspa (talk) 17:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

LOL. Or Robin Jackson was a person who used his Luger against other people, killing some, injuring others.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:50, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe with a second section about how he had the same name as a pretty bird which you get at Christmas, which is a nice time of year :D Keresaspa (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

LOL. And the Mimai Showband killings article would have to be changed to read three musicians were elinimated by a series of gunshots to various parts of their bodies after Harris Boyle and Wesley Somerville were hurt real bad when the bomb went off. WP prevents the detailing of their deaths which has been deemd too graphic, but suffice to say they had funerals several days later..--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

It will be getting that way. From my understanding WP:Not censored is policy but policy is only enforced round here if you have friends in high places. Keresaspa (talk) 18:19, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting the article. I took out the stuff that might be deemed "unecessarily graphic", but the editor insisted that it was still "too graphic for WP". Problem is, I checked all over Wikipedia and did not once come across any policy about graphic descriptions or images; however, there is a policy of Not Censored. If Tandragee is too graphic and might upset families, then we'd need to sanitise the JFK assassination article as it details the shooting and shows an autopsy photo. The Tandragee article was given a B Class assessment, so obviously the assessor did not find ot "too graphic". Like you said, whatever happened to discussing issues on the articles' talk pages? Hmm, much easier and safer to edit war, I suppose.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I doubt my revert will do any good but what's the point in having policies if nobody enforces them so I thought I might as well make the gesture. Not censored is official policy and not just a guideline and I'm sure the family read a lot worse when it was covered by sleazy local tabloids like the Sunday World and Sunday Life. God knows they're graphic at the best of times, I'm sure they were positively ghoulish over Tandragee. I never trust anybody who appeals solely to emotion in their arguments anyway. Keresaspa (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

So far he/she is the only editor objecting so there's no consensus to delete the info. Besides one cannot allow emotions to influence our writing, otherwise our articles would end up sounding like a eulogy. If the family had any objections they would hav vocalised them already, and like you pointed out Not Censored is official Wikipedia policy. Did you read the link I put above? The Justice for David McIlwaine page has pretty graphic details in it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed that link does so if that's their own campaign what possible objection can there be to the article on here being similar but actually a bit less graphic. As for no consensus, what else is new? Too many editors now consider consensus to be a dirty word. My way or the highway again. Speaking of which I haven't checked in a while, any more word from Franklinson dude? Keresaspa (talk) 20:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I see that the "too graphic" editor is changing the Bloody Sunday article without consensus or discussion, and in fact has broken the 1RR. He/She is developing a rather bad habit regarding Troubles-related pages. Bloody Sunday is a high-priority Troubles article, therefore one cannot just come along and arbitrarily remove or change stuff without making big waves. As for Stone-Franklinson, not a peep out of him (knock on wood). Ditto for the Jonesborough ambush editor. There was an IP who went around deleting surnames and titles from all the English queens consort infoboxes, leaving Anne Boleyn as simply "Anne" and Catherine Parr as "Catherine", and so on. Real professional, eh? I left him a note on his/her talk page. IMO, registered editing will have to be imposed here sooner or later.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:31, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Registered editing might work although even then you run the danger of it turning into an old boys club, with gangs like the republicans backing each other up. I'm not sure what the solution is to be honest. Meanwhile if this character is attacking the Bloody Sunday article then sanctions probably will follow as, like you say, that's high priority and will be watched by a number of admins. As I said before if these rules exist then they must be enforced otherwise why bother even having them?! Keresaspa (talk) 17:27, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. The rules seem to be enforced on a strictly arbitrary basis. Other editors have been complaining about that editor chsnging things in Bloody Sunday without discussion or consensus. Sound familiar? I watched an interesting biography on a Miami Showband site on the massacre. You know, things just don't add up and journalists are not asking the right questions. For example, if the bomb was meant to go off portraying the band as IRA supporters, Ray Millar was at home in Antrim and could testify that the claim was patently false. Also any passing motorist seeing the roadblock would have told police about the UDR checkpoint and inquiries would have revealed that no UDR/Army VCP was authorised that night at Buskhill. So that theory just does not make sense as nobody would have been convinced. Also why don't journalists ask Travers or McAlea whether they can identify Robin "Dead Eyes" Jackson as having been one of the "soldiers" that night?!! Always Nairac, Nairac, Nairac. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:48, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Bloody Sunday is too high profile an article to start attacking without annoying some of the enforcers, although it is a real pity that people can get away with it pretty much unchecked on other articles. Mind you to do anything about it would probably require admin power and that's something I'll never be on here as I don't have the friends in high places and to be honest what they do sounds interminably boring and holds no appeal to me whatsoever. Is it something you would fancy? As to to the Showband the bomb section doesn't make a lick of sense really does it? Even if the bomb had have worked I don't think the Miami Showband would ever have been convincingly portrayed as a republican band, simply because they played everywhere and as such all the evidence was against it. Not asking about Jackson seems ludicrous too. It has me stumped to be honest. Keresaspa (talk) 18:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I have no desire to be an admin. I prefer being on the creative end of the spectrum. Not only do they fail to ask about Jackson, but they don't question as to why it was done on the main road with no apparent haste. And if they'd wanted to plant a bomb on board why didn't the gang just booby-trap the van dwhilst they were onstage in Banbridge instead of this elaborate bogus checkpoint when a real patrol could have appeared at any moment catching the lot of them? Finally, something has always bothered me. When the explosion occurred how were the gunmen able to orient themsleves so quickly by opening fire? Weren't they dazed from the blast? How close were they to the van? Why aren't these questions being asked?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:09, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

It is a weird state of affairs and no mistake. Wish I could give you some answers but it's got me baffled. Keresaspa (talk) 18:58, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Well he's reverted..par 4 the course.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

How predictable. There really needs to be a simpler way to put a stop to this. Keresaspa (talk) 19:23, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Tandragee update

There is currently a discussion on the talk page regarding the graphic descriptions. I replied this morning. The article's title was changed by consensus to Andrew Robb and David McIlwaine killings.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:02, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Well that's progress at least rather than an edit war. I'll stick my oar in tomorrow probably. Keresaspa (talk) 23:32, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Dialogue is always best.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

a bunch of new Nazi links

User:Ultracobalt/Articles has recently contributed a whole bunch of Nazi articles:

I think that the source for at least some of these can be found in "Ernst Klee, Das Personenlexikon zum Dritten Reich: Wer war was vor und nach 1945. (Frankfurt am Main, 2007)" - such as for Moeser.

I will add these to my list of bluelinks as well so please be sure to delete them if or when you find a source.Hoops gza (talk) 17:25, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

A couple of them aren't on my list and Drauz has already been added to List of Nazis (A-E). A few of the others have sources in the articles that could be used in their relevant list entries and, as you say, Klee should take care of the rest. Keresaspa (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Good, I assume then that you will add these to the list?Hoops gza (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I've done three, will probably do the rest later but I'm too busy right now. Keresaspa (talk) 18:48, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I believe that you might also be able to find ~~Rudolf Beckmann~~ in the aforementioned Klee book.Hoops gza (talk) 03:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

~~Ernst Stengelin~~ as well.Hoops gza (talk) 03:26, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
One more, Herbert Floss.Hoops gza (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, Franz Hössler.

I have a question. Would it not be wiser to try to translate the equivalent German articles for some of these Nazis?Hoops gza (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't read German and online translators are always very unsatisfactory. Also not all of the German Wikipedia articles are well sourced. Of course if you do read German then by all means translate the articles with sources as it would save time and effort. Keresaspa (talk) 18:57, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

On the list a Nazi between Hans Egon Holthusen and Karl Holz (Nazi) is missing his or her name. The source is still there so perhaps that is the best way to retrace it.Hoops gza (talk) 01:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

It was Ludwig Hohlwein who was missing. I added the reference yet forgot to add his name when I did so for some reason! Good spot. Keresaspa (talk) 01:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Good job. Now if you take a look at the edit history on each page of the List, you will see that a user is removing the citations where they are self-published sources. There are about ten on each page. I think that the best thing to do would be to reference Klee where you can and then we will have to hold off on the remaining ones until we find sources. Let me know if you want me to delete the remaining ones from the list altogether. In the meantime I am adding them to User:Hoops gza/Nazi bluelinks that need citation to prove they were Nazis. Cheers.Hoops gza (talk) 02:30, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, I am poised to load up your redlink list with literally hundreds of new redlinks from places such as the concentration camp trials. Let me know if you have any objections to this.Hoops gza (talk) 03:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I suspected that would happen eventually with the sources. No big deal, we can find others from somewhere. I'll see what I can do tomorrow as it's nearly my bedtime now. Oh and add whatever you want to the redlinks list as it is for the best if we have all the names in one centralised list. Keresaspa (talk) 03:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I take it that you have already added all of the applicable redlinks from the Klee books? Also, I am curious - how you can use Klee as a source for so much stuff if you cannot read German?Hoops gza (talk) 22:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

A better source such as Klee would be good for the following Nazis who are already on the list (I added these):

Also the citation for Taras Borodajkewycz is kind of goofy - it is simply a title. Some elaboration on it at least would be a good improvement.Hoops gza (talk) 02:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Manuel Gálvez

On 11 April 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Manuel Gálvez, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Manuel Gálvez promoted Juan Manuel de Rosas as an archetype of Argentine values? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Manuel Gálvez.You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:03, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Titanic centennial

What's going on in Belfast today to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Titanic's sinking? BTW, have you applied for a year's free subscription at HighBeam? See here: Wikipedia:HighBeam/Applications.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Not a clue. I was bored of the whole Titanic rubbish months ago but now I'm ready to jump out the window every time I hear that blasted name. Some ship sank a hundred years ago - that's no reason to blow millions on vanity projects at a time when unemployment is rampant in this city. And no matter how much the council wastes peoples first thought when they hear the word Belfast will never be "ships" it will always be "bombs, bullets and mayhem". As to HighBeam it says applications closed on 9th April so I guess that'll have to be a no then :D Keresaspa (talk) 23:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Last night they showed the film on TV. Barely a mention that it was built in Belfast-not once is Harland & Wolff cited throughout the film-which was interesting but too Hollywoodish...much preferred older versions such as A Night to Remember and SOS Titanic. There's a second round of applications so it's not too late for you to sign up for HighBeam. Thank you for your excellent input on the Tandragee talk page. Once an article has text removed because it offends one editor, it'll open the floodgates for "I don't like it" editing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

The chap on the Tandragee page seems to be under the misconception that he is being accused of censoring for political reasons (which he clearly isn't) rather than for editing the article to conform to his own moral code (which he clearly is). No way can that be allowed to happen, otherwise you will have creationists adding their guff to evolution and dinosaur articles. Not censored has to be a pillar as far as I'm concerned. Keresaspa (talk) 17:00, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't accusing him of political bias at all-in fact I have noticed that he edits from a NPOV as regards politics. However, he is trying to establish a moral code of ethics (his own) by which articles have to be sanitised so that nothing is written that could possibly offend readers! Dangerous stuff as this would clearly hamper good writing and the free flow of sourced information. I imagine that any reader coming to a Troubles-article knows he or she is not going to find Mills & Boon sweetness and romance. The Troubles was an extremely violent, bloody conflict where people (paramilitaries, civilians, soldiers and police) frequently met gruesome ends. We cannot minimise this fact. We cannot.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:23, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Me neither, but his responses to you about censorship do indicate that he seems to think that's what he is being accused of. It's that sort of "blue pencil" censorship we're talking about and I have to be honest I absolutely hate that sort of stuff. The truth is often an ugly thing and sugar-coating it accomplishes nothing. There were few images that made a more powerful statement against the Vietnam War than the famous one of the naked child running screaming covered in napalm. By the standards this editor is trying to push something like that would not be shown. Ditto Holocaust images. As far as I'm concerned if you allow that sort of twee censorship you are only a step away from painting a bra and knickers on Venus Anadyomene. I've been having similar rows on a music website that I am active on with some little whiner wanting to suppress images of people smoking because she has an issue with "tabacco" as she insists on spelling on it. Obviously I would never say it on a talk page here but people like that really need to grow up. If it annoys you that Fats Waller and Prince Far-I smoked then don't listen to them as far as I'm concerned, just as if it annoys you that the Tandragee killings were brutal don't read about them. If I'm being honest this article has me in bits every time I look at it but I still wouldn't advocate toning it down because why should we seek to diminish such a sickeningly soul-destroying episode in the story of humanity? It's an ugly grim world sometimes and pretending otherwise will never change that. Let's hope they don't read about Anne Ogilby as they would probably want to remove the entire article! Keresaspa (talk) 17:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Well said Kereasaspa! Toning down words won't erase the fact that an event happened-disturbing as it may be to others. Apart from Anne Ogilby, there's the Paddy Wilson and Irene Andrews killings, Bloody Friday, Dublin and Monaghan bombings, Warrenpoint ambush, William Moore, Lenny Murphy articles, Jack the Ripper victims' articles, the JFK assassination page....I could go on and on. If we toned all those pages down, the reader would be left with nothing more than a Hardy Boys adventure story. The leads in all these articles let the reader know the respective article isn't a picturesque jaunt down Primrose Lane.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

You said it. If you're going to get involved in editing NI articles you need a mature attitude to content. The Troubles was a civil war, you can't dress that up in Beatrix Potter language. It was bloody, it was violent, it was brutal, it was grubby - if that's a problem go and edit the articles on My Little Pony or something! Keresaspa (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. One cannot become emotional when editing Troubles-pages. Some of the details are horrific, but Dillon, Taylor, Tiernan-anybody writing about the Troubles use similar language.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Spot on - if the sources for Wikipedia contain information there is no justifiable reason for excluding it regardless of a few people's squeamishness. Keresaspa (talk) 17:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Interesting blog

This blog may be of interest to you: [9]--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:20, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Patrick Pearse and blood sacrifice springs to mind, although unlike Pearse Gerry was never going to sacrifice himself. Keresaspa (talk) 23:49, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I once read an article by Henry McDonald in which he says that the Hunger Strikes were called because the punk movement had actually begun to unite Catholic and Protestant young people and that the former were losing interest in the IRA. The strikes were devised (according to McDonald, who was himself a part of the Belfast punk scene of the late-70s-early-80s), because the 'RA leadership wished to once-again polarise the two communities and steer Catholics youths back into the republican fold. It also attracted unprecedented attention from the international community which heaped condemnation onto the British government.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:12, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It is possible I suppose. Belfast did take to punk in a big way and it's always been represented here even when it was completely out of fashion elsewhere. Back in late 1990s I used to frequent Giros (the main punk meeting place, now sadly gone and replaced by a gay bar) from time to time, despite being avowedly a metalhead, and the bands that played there like Pink Turds in Space and Jobbykrust were always very anti-sectarian. Mind you that wasn't always reflected in their audience, as a lot of the punks I knew were from west Belfast and retained republican beliefs whilst there was also a loyalist mob who leaned more towards the Nazi punk mentality. But that was the 1990s of course and so I can't comment on how far that was the case in the early 1980s. I did have a cousin who was a punk back then but she too was a keen republican. Keresaspa (talk) 17:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

When I visited Belfast for the first time in 1981 I noticed that the place was full of punks, more than Dublin had at the time. Oh, I see you edit many Nazi articles. Today I did a bit of editing on this unusual lady, Hanna Reitsch. Did you know she was a guest of JFK in 1961!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:15, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

You still see them now and I mean proper ones, rather than little kids who call themselves punks because they have one Green Day album. I like a lot of crust punk, grindcore and D-beat myself but I've never been a punk per se as I like a lot of other types of music too and I went bald far too early to consider a mohican! Far right articles were my main reason for being here initially as that's what my PhD thesis was about. Loyalism seemed an obvious follow on due to the crossover in the 1970s and subsequently. Oddly enough Reitsch's name cropped up last night when I was editing Wilhelm Zander as they were both visitors to the Führerbunker. Her being a guest of JFK is no surprise to me as the US forgave a ton of Nazis who were useful to them, including a number involved in the research sides of the Holocaust. Denazification punished some people unduly harshly and let a number of other guilty people off scot free or as near as. How many of the IG Farben executives who oversaw rearmaments and who knew about the Holocaust ended up leading figures in corporate West Germany? Practically all of them. Keresaspa (talk) 17:27, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I never knew that about the IG Farben executives.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:59, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I did a number of the articles over at Category:IG Farben people a few months back and some of the stuff I came across was horrific. For a lot of them the old German defence about not knowing about the Holocaust was a blatant lie but they still formed West Germany's business elite as soon as the occupation was over. Keresaspa (talk) 16:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

You've created some good articles about these people. I never knew the West German business elite was made up of former IG Farben executives. One learns something new everyday here at Wikiepedia!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. It does rather seem that the political and military elites in post-war German society were purged but the commercial elite was largely left untouched and the research elite was exported to the United States, even though in many cases the latter two groups were as culpable as the former. Keresaspa (talk) 17:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I finally found somebody to write about

I had been on the brink of creating an article about him some time ago but got sidetracked. It really needs fleshing out, especially the part about his arrest on 13 May 1972 which is covered by Cusack & McDonald on page 100 in UVF, but alas, Google Books only let me take a small peak. Ditto for Lost Lives where it stated that he was named by John Gibson in a 1984 supergrass trial. King was charged with two murders in 1975 but acquitted when the case broke down. Would you happen to have any info on "Kingso"? Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Almost created his article myself once. I'll see if I can add anything later but it looks good. Keresaspa (talk) 16:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Trevor King mural

Out of interest I wonder if you have a photo or could obtain one of the mural of him in Disraeli Street?I ask because I see his Wikipedia page has recently been created and that mural of him would be great for the page,similiar to your photo uploaded for Brian Robinson's page. ThanksDColt (talk) 19:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I should be in the area next week some time so I'll hopefully be able to add one pretty soon. Keresaspa (talk) 16:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually I won't be able to as someone on Wikimedia Commons has told me that without the consent of the mural painter a photograph is inadmissible on Wikimedia Commons for copyright reasons. As a result I'll not be able to upload any more. Keresaspa (talk) 01:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Murals in Northern Ireland are typically the work of more than one artist. How would one be able to obtain permission and where would one go to track the artisans down? I wonder what the laws are regarding graffiti?!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:03, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

To be honest if that's the state of the rules I reckon I'll give Wikimedia Commons a miss from now on. There are literally hundreds of mural images on there, practically none of which have copyright info attached to them, so I guess they'll all be removed eventually. This is where all this came from - I haven't the faintest idea who painted it and I'm certainly not going schlepping round Belfast trying to find out nor have I any intention of asking him for permission to upload a photograph of his mural even if I did. Who knows when they will create a rule for everything else I upload (buildings being copyrighted to their architects or something equally ridiculous) so I don't really think I need the hassle. Keresaspa (talk) 14:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes I can see that all buildings will be copyrighted to their architects, and trees, moutains and the sea to God, then photos of ourselves copyrighted to our ancestors.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately it seems to be the way things are going with copyright. I appreciate people wanting royalties for their work but it has swung much too far and the future of things like Wikipedia are seriously threatened by all of this. How long before we have to contact authors before using them as sources for entries? The golden age of the internet is coming to an end. Keresaspa (talk) 14:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

What about old murals painted on buildings which have since been demolished? And would someone really be expected to track down the mural painters in various loyalist and republican drinking dens to obtain their permission? I agree that our freedom is being seriously threatened. What's ironic is that our writing can be freely copied. I saw some of the things I wrote in the Miami Showband killings article copied verbatim in An Phoblacht.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:58, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

It really is ludicrous but unfortunately I can offer no defence as I don't know the law and the deletion nominator (who is also an admin on here, surprise surprise) does. I mean if you didn't want people taking pictures why would you paint things in public in the first place? And can the artist really hold copyright like that when in nearly every case they don't own the building? After all practically every mural in Belfast is on the side of a council house. Keresaspa (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

If the council owns the building its painted on surely the painter doesn't own copyright. If he did and could collect royalties for his work what better way to fill the paramilitary coffers?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:40, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

To be fair the one that this started about is on the side of a bar but if the painter is also the landlord and the landlord is also the building owner I will eat my hat! Keresaspa (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I see the same person also wants this one (which isn't mine) deleted so it looks like he means business. A shame as I said as the project will suffer but once somebody has a bee in their bonnet and starts throwing the law about there is nothing you can do (although why British law is relevant to Wikimedia, which is American, is beyond me). Keresaspa (talk) 15:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I have just left a comment on that file's proposed deletion page. I was logged out at the time so only my IP shows.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice one. Let's hope it makes some difference but we all know how logical argument is treated round these parts! Keresaspa (talk) 18:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if I'll have to contact the "Beast of the East" for permission to use the photo of the mural I took on Ballymacarrett Road? Actually, I saw a group of locals painting another mural close by. There were about three or four painters with the usual crowd gathered round to watch their progress. So who out of this group holds the copyright?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

When it was being painted over recently it was the same. There was one wee man who seemed to be directing things but there were several people doing the actual painting. Keresaspa (talk) 18:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, in that cast the wee man giving orders is likely the commissioner so he owns the copyright-to this mural. But the former one?! It might not have been the same guy or group of painters, however, they're both UVF murals, so maybe "Mr F" owns the copyright to all UVF murals in Northern Ireland?!!!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:50, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

There again like most wee men he probably just enjoyed the sound if his own voice and feeling in charge. And I would have to say that Messrs U and V would also need to give their written consent as well! Keresaspa (talk) 17:26, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Personally speaking this is an absolute outrage.All the effort you put in to take and compile the photos is now wasted.Wikipedia will be poorer without contributions the likes of yourself make.Murals enhance the topic of the page and this bizarre law puts a total dampner on The Troubles related articles on Wikipedia.Considering the history and amount of murals in Belfast this is a huge disappointment.DColt (talk) 21:41, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you there. The murals tell the story of the Troubles to a large extent and without them articles are going to be a lot blander. Hopefully common sense will prevail and all this will end but with some the crazy rules that go on here I won't be holding my breath. Keresaspa (talk) 22:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

If this user on Commons attempts to remove all the murals' images I shall make a very strong protest on the Jimbo Wales talk page. It's no wonder people prefer to upload all their photos to Flickr rather than Commons. I once had a batch of photos deleted in one swoop. If these murals are all protected by copyright, why are they used by CAIN? Did they obtain prior permission from the various artists all around Belfast and beyond?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:25, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

If Commons do decide to delete your very useful images - and I agree that the copyright claim is very dubious - I hope that they can be moved here to the English-language Wikipedia, as copyrighted images with valid fair use claims are permitted here. A bit of searching turns up this, stating that legally painted murals are not allowed on Commons, but also this, stating that illegally painted murals have been permitted. Warofdreams talk 15:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think the mural painters obtained the permission of the local council nor applied for copyright, therefore they are illegal murals and are not covered by copyright. Thanks Warofdreams.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a good call Warofdreams. I reckon the paramilitary ones would fall under the graffiti ruling. Cheers. Keresaspa (talk) 17:44, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Could you imagine going up to Disraeli Street,knocking on the door of the house the Trevor King mural is on and asking who painted it?DColt (talk) 17:52, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice one. I ever fancied getting my head kicked in I would do it :D It really is ludicrous when you think about it. Keresaspa (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I can imagine the response you'd get if you knocked on the door with "excuse me, would you happen to know who did the mural on your gable there?" Also imagine coming upon a group of mural painters and asking which of them owns the copyright?!!!!! Ludicrous indeed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:12, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I would get told to eff off if they were feeling generous, if they weren't an ugly picture of me would turn up on the six o'clock news announcing a missing person manhunt! Keresaspa (talk) 17:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I can just picture the likely scenario were you to knock on a door in Disreali Street or Ballymacarrett Road asking about the mural painters. A 5'4, muscled, heavily-tattooed spide with cropped hair, small beady eyes, eyebrow, lip and ear-piercings, wearing a tight white tee shirt and tracksuit trousers looking like a nightmarish cross between Johnny Adair and Crip McWilliams opens the door. "Who arrrr ye? Wa-wa do ye fockin want? Get tae fock off mie door ste-yepp ye wee focker or aye'll knack yer ballix in, so aye we-ill". Or even more sinister, "wait till aye get me brother Kenny (or Billy, Sammy, Jimmy, whatever) he'll be wantin a wee talk with ye".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly what would happen. You ask somebody directions on the estates and they often get angry never mind asking copyright details of public walls! Keresaspa (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The guy I got directions off on Ballymacarrett Road was quite friendly and he had just been watching a mural being painted! In fact, I saw him explaining to the mural watchers "my business" for being in their territory!!! Have you ever asked anyone directions and got a spidey reply?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Not really, although I always make sure to pick older people rather than dodgy-looking kids when I need directions. I did get guarded answers in Glencairn when I was looking for Fernhill House and in Rathcoole when I was looking for the library (where the old guy I asked seemed rather annoyed by my presence, although it is a bit of a hillbilly place I suppose) but generally I just wander and see where I end up. Keresaspa (talk) 17:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Have you never had any problems at all going into estates like the Lower Shankill?Locals tend to notice a stranger coming in and taking photos.I would imagine during the Troubles it could have warranted death for any unfortunate soul.DColt (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I took photos in Sandy Row and the Falls during The Troubles, but nothing happened to me. It would have been foolhardy to have taken photos of people at parades, funerals, rallies, etc. I know a well-knowm photojournalist (originally from Dublin) who snapped a few pics at a loyalist rally in the 1980s. A burly skinhead ordered him to hand over the film. My friend, fearing the consequnces were he to argue in his Dublin accent, mutely handed it over.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I took this pic on the Falls. The guys noticed me taking the photo and my friend told me to put my camera away.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Not these days - the UVF and UDA even have a hand in the tourist taxi and bus market respectively now, ferrying loads of camera-toting visitors up and down the Shankill. Back in the old days I would have drawn a lot more attention but a lot of the estates are on the tourist trail these days so nobody bats an eyelid. To be honest the murals on both sides have become so professional and artistic these days that their existence is as much to do with attracting people as showing political allegiance. I be on the Falls Road a lot and you can't go past the "Solidarity Wall" bit near the bottom without there being a few taxis full of tourists there. If those murals didn't exist nobody would come as it is a pretty grim housing area otherwise but those that do come pay the local taxi drivers for the tours and maybe buy lunch in the local shops so they bring in bits of money that otherwise wouldn't be there so as a result photographers are welcome in most places now. The only exception might be the more off the beaten track areas with less to attract tourists like Highfield and Glencairn at the top of the Shankill or Turf Lodge and Ballymurphy beyond the Falls, as I have a bit of a thing for taking pictures of derelict buildings and urban decay. Sometimes there you might get funny looks but so far nobody has started waving guns at me or anything. Well not yet anyway, touch wood. Even something like the Twelfth parades would be OK now, although something like a dissident republican event would still probably see you at least asked to wipe the pictures. Keresaspa (talk) 18:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been very busy

What do you think of this one: Battle of Springmartin? I created this a few hours ago. I'm surprised there wasn't already an article on this incident. How does it look? It needs fleshing out, but hopefully I didn't make any glaring mistakes. Google Books is a nightmare to research.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Looking smart. Been a bit under the weather these last few days hence my lack of involvement on here but I will try to see if I can add owt to this and King tonight. Keresaspa (talk) 19:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I hope you're feeling better. Your additions to both articles look good! I had a hell of a time finding info on the Springmartin article. Google Books wasn't much help as I could only find disjointed sentences. BTW, nice work on the Michael Stone page.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Still feeling pretty ropey to be honest. Not altogether sure what's wrong just feel generally sick. I found very little about the Springmartin battle, a bit more about Trevor King. Google Books is great when it has a preview and virtually unusable when it doesn't so kudos for sticking to it. The Stone additions came after I got a copy of his autobiography recently. I wonder what his reaction would be if he knew his book was being sold in a charity sale the proceeds of which went to Carmelite nuns?! Keresaspa (talk) 14:26, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I wonder what the nuns themselves would think? Perhaps you have an allergy brought on by spring? Sometimes the change of seasons wreck havoc with one's health.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel a bit dodgy quite regularly as I have a blood disorder but it usually passes quickly although from time to time it drags on for a while so I'm assuming it's just that. It's nothing major really just a bit of an annoyance. Keresaspa (talk) 14:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. I hope it's not serious. I was anemic as a child and for a whole year had to get weekly B-12 shots from the doctor and eat lots of liver.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

It's pretty much the exact opposite of anemia I have - HFE hereditary haemochromatosis. If there's the slightest bit of iron in food my body absorbs every single bit of it and unfortunately iron in high doses is poisonous. I actually used to enjoy liver now and then but I can't eat it any more, nor any sort of offal. I also very rarely eat red meat now and cannot eat, or even touch, shellfish as the bacteria on it can kill me. I've hinted to you before that I am a former drinker, well that's the reason basically. I was told I can only drink once in a blue moon, only a couple of units in one sitting and never with food. Well being 6'3" and heavy I needed at least five pints in me before I felt remotely merry so a couple of units does nothing except get me in the mood for more so goodbye booze too. The treatment is basically getting a pint of blood taken out of me every couple of months (formerly weeks) and that always leaves me feeling lousy for a few days. Mind you the treatment prevents me from getting liver disease which I almost had when I started the treatment so I can't complain too much. Even though I do absolutely loathe needles! Keresaspa (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

How old were you when you discovered you had it?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

29 and purely by accident as people are usually in their forties or fifties before it is discovered. After I quit the fegs I had the usual terrible withdrawal symptoms but when they hadn't improved three months later I got my GP to investigate further. A blood test demonstrated my liver enzymes were abnormally high so I was sent to a specialist who also noticed my iron levels were through the roof and so carried out a DNA screening to determine if I had haemochromatosis or not. Fortnightly blood-lettings followed as treatment. Now when I describe it like that it all sounds smooth but there was an awful lot of waiting involved, including a point where my specialist retired and I was ignored altogether for months, all the time my levels climbing higher and my liver taking more of a battering. Fortunately my mother (Mairead's aunt) is a formidable woman and she eventually found a phone number for the liver clinic and raised hell about my shoddy treatment. As if by magic a new specialist took on my case and the diagnosis was complete. As I say the treatment is a bit of a nuisance as I hate needles and for about a year it was carried out by junior doctors who frequently mucked things up. They were so full of textbook learning that it was just annoying sometimes. I remember once my arm went dead when he put the needle in and then he adjusted the tourniquet to fix it but it was still numb. When I told him his reaction was "it shouldn't be" and I must admit I had a bit of an explosion at that and told that "well, it f**king well is"! Fortunately an experienced nurse does it now so I haven't had needles falling out and my shirt being ruined by my own blood (a regular occurrence with the juniors) in a while. Keresaspa (talk) 18:40, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank God, you're receiving proper treatment. I shudder to think what would happen here in Italy with all the quack doctors and nurses all over the place.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Without the treatment you eventually get cirrhosis and finally liver cancer. Mind you, fortunately for the Italians it is a condition that is much more common in the "Celtic" countries than anywhere else. Supposedly it was introduced to Ireland by the Vikings, many of whom developed the condition to compensate for their very low iron diets as they didn't raise herd animals. God knows really, all I know is as much as I hate the blood lettings I would be jaundiced and dying without them. Keresaspa (talk) 18:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

It just goes to prove that although we often get nostalgic for the past, we're much better off living in modern times where medical knowledge and treatment is available. I didn't know that about the Vikings. Although pro-Celtic scholars insist the Viking genetic contribution to Ireland was small, I suggest it was actually very high. In fact, it was the Vikings who introduced B type blood into Ireland which I have via my father whose parents were both Irish. Oh, your man left a rather nasty comment on the Tandragee talk page. Should I remove it?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:34, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I personally reckon the Vikings made a big hit on Irish genetics as I doubt I could would have ended up 6'3" with pale blue eyes any other way. Ireland is generally an island of small men so us occasional tall ones have to come from somewhere and so far my genealogical research has uncovered no significant immigrant strains in my family tree (unfortunately, I was hoping for a bit of the exotic). My condition is also a sign of Viking blood and it is apparently more common in Ireland than any other country. Oh and leave the comment there in case he needs reporting for his antics as it's probably a breach of WP:CIVIL. Now I must go and watch some slasher films and listen to a bit of goregrind :D Keresaspa (talk) 17:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The most exotic ancestor I uncovered was a French prostitute taken from a Paris prison and sent as a bride in the 1700s to a French colonist in Louisiana. I reckon Iv'e Viking blood as I'm 5'8 and my dad's dad was also a very tall Irishman. Oh let me guess. You're going to watch all the Saw films? And let's not forget Texas Chainsaw Massacre!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

There's a Dutch surname that turns up in my ancestry but I can't quite pinpoint its origins (well the Netherlands obviously but I mean I've yet to be able to go back far enough to discover an actual Dutchman ancestor rather than an Irish one with the Dutch surname). Other than that it's just a slew of Irish surnames with the odd Scottish or English one of the type well known in Ireland anyway (e.g Thompson, Henderson) thrown in. SO whereabouts in Ireland was your dad from if it's not too nosy? Keresaspa (talk) 17:55, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

My dad was actually born in Kansas City, Missouri when that city had an enormous Irish immigrant population. His dad was from County Clare and his mother from Crossmolina, County Mayo. My dad wad educated by Irish priests; however he was later excommunicated from the Church. My mother was Protestant. Her surname Gilmore comes from Ulster and her ancestors were at the Siege of Derry. She was also a descendant of George Walker. There are loads of Thompsons in her family tree as well-from her maternal line. Another notable ancestor via my maternal grandmother was Col. Richard Townsend. My mother's paternal grandmother was French.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

So all on the west coast then. Don't know that side of Ireland personally. For me on my mum's side she was born in the Markets, her mum (my granny) was also born in the Markets to a local father and a Newry born mother whilst her dad (my grandad) was born in Ballymacarrett to a Ravenhill Road mother (the one with the Dutch name) and a father from New Lodge. My dad was from Ligoniel, his dad (my grandad) was born in Lower Oldpark to a Shankill Road mother and a father whom I know nothing about and his mum was from somewhere in north Belfast with both her parents from the south. As you've no doubt worked out long ago given that you know my cousin I'm from the Catholic side although my paternal grandfather converted from Presbyterianism when he married my grandmother. I've only started researching really but it's all fascinating stuff this genealogy lark. Keresaspa (talk) 18:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it's fascinating. Northern Ireland has a lot of surnames which are originally French Huguenot such as Molyneaux and Marchant (hence William's nickname "Frenchie"). Your great-grandmother with the Dutch surname could very well be a descendant of one of the Dutch soldiers who came to fight under William of Orange. So your grandad's mum came from the Shankill Road! Interesting. I had a boyfriend from Ballymurphy who had a Catholic mother and a Protestant dad from the Shankill. He told me his parents had met at a dance back in the 1950s when both sides mixed much more than they did after the Troubles broke out. He was raised Catholic, although his dad never converted. You know most Irish-Americans come from Connacht, Ulster or Munster-rarely Leinster. Dublin surnames are rare amongst the long-established Irish-American families. For instance, Byrne is one of the most common Dublin surnames, yet I never met an American with that name.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I did a bit of scouting for the Dutch surname and apparently there were a group of Flemish weavers with the name who emigrated to Fife so maybe that's where it came from. The problems with researching in Ireland though are that records are all over the place because of the border and the first census is only from 1901 as earlier ones were destroyed in a fire. I only found out about the Shankill connection a few weeks ago - just off Snugville Street apparently. I went up there today but it is all redeveloped and the street she was from was not rebuilt. I never knew my grandad (in fact only one of my grandparents was alive when I was born) but he definitely converted because he died of a heart attack on the steps of St Patrick's Donegall Street whilst leaving Mass on Christmas Day 76! I suppose Dubliners went to England and Scotland more. I had a great-uncle who emigrated to the US although obviously I never knew him. My uncle also emigrated in the 50s but came back after about ten years as he couldn't make a go of it. And off the top of my head I can think of one American Byrne - David Byrne. Definitely a big surname in Dublin though - one of my best mates down there back in the day was called Byrne although last I heard of him he was living in Hamburg. Keresaspa (talk) 17:43, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I had forgotten about the Flemish weavers. Many had moved to England, Scotland and Ireland over the centuries. Regarding David Byrne, he was born in Scotland.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:09, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

David Byrne's from Scotland? Now that's one I really didn't know. I always thought of him as the archetype of the New York hipster. You learn something new everyday. You'll be telling me the Mael brothers are from Llandudno next! Keresaspa (talk) 17:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Byrne's from Dunbarton. The Mael brothers are from Culver City, California which is very close to where I grew up in Los Angeles. I visited Llandudno once back in 1981.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I was in dudno myself back in the early 1990s. Nice little town. Keresaspa (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

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Springmartin Road

Well as usual Belfast Forum came up with the goods. Look at these wonderful old pictures of Springfield Road and estate dating from the 1970s. It makes it easier to visualise the gun battles. Take a look here: Belfast Forum Springmartin Road--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Hasn't changed as much as I thought it would have. A lot of that still looks more or less the same. Keresaspa (talk) 17:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Are the flats still there?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The top right ones? Still there as far as I know or if not they've rebuilt them in the exact same style! Further on down that block (on a row that might actually be more recent) there is a UDA mural but I'm not allowed to mention those on here now :D There are two others nearby. Now the Highfield estate is a grim area - you wouldn't dare ask directions there as you get daggers stared at you just for walking the streets if they don't know you. I suppose that's a legacy of years gun battles. Keresaspa (talk) 18:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually I'm getting confused as those are Highcairn Drive, which is halfway between Springmartin and West Circular roads. Mind you Springmartin Road still looks like that. Keresaspa (talk) 18:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice photos.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you ma'am Keresaspa (talk) 18:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

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