User talk:Hybernator/Archive-03

Parabaik

Is parabaik ( ပုရပိုက် ) a type of paper (like is told here) or type of Burmese manuscript made of paper as opposite to palm leaf (like here) or both ? And why it is ပုရပိုက် in en-wiki and မြန်မာပုရပိုက် (Myanma parabaik?) in my-wiki ? Jeremiasz (talk) 14:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

It almost always refers to types of paper (although technically, parabaiks can be made of gold, silver, and other materials). Palm leaf manuscripts have their own name: ပေစာ. The Burmese term for literature စာပေ comes from that. Ancient manuscripts are often collectively referred to as စာပေ ပုရပိုက် because they were almost always written on these two media. (The third would be stone inscriptions, considered most reliable from a historical studies standpoint. Because they are much more durable, they are much much less susceptible to copying errors of palm leaf and parabaik manuscripts which need to be recopied every 100 years or so. But it took much more effort to inscribe on stones, so stone inscriptions weren't widely used.)

The Burmese Wiki article is a direct copy of the same article in the Burmese encyclopedia Myanma Swezon Kyan (MSK), which uses မြန်မာ ပုရပိုက်. I'm not sure why the authors of MSK chose to add the word မြန်မာ but based on the article, which talks about how it was made and used in the ancient times in Myanmar, it seems the authors added it to signify how paper manuscripts were used in Myanmar. It's my guess because the article doesn't talk about how parabaik paper types used in Myanmar were any different from those used in neighboring states to warrant the term မြန်မာ ပုရပိုက်. Hybernator (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Once again: Thank you very much. Jeremiasz (talk) 17:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Saw Omma of Pinya

Orlady (talk) 09:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

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Good articles

Hello Hybernator,

Several articles about Burmese kings that you have edited (Anawrahta, Tabinshwehti, Bayinnaung, Alaungpaya, Hsinbyushin) are really impressive. I would like to encourage you to nominate them, at least for Good Article (perhaps even Featured). Articles that excel the Wikipedia average by far should be recognised and marked as such. The same applies to the war articles (like Burmese–Siamese War (1759–60), Burmese–Siamese War (1765–67), Sino-Burmese War (1765–69)). Thanks a lot for these great articles. Kind regards. --RJFF (talk) 19:50, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi RJFF, thanks very much for the encouragement. I've made a conscious decision not to start the GA process (yet) because I've wanted to spend my limited time on improving the general state of articles on Burmese history and culture, which is still quite poor. (More than half Toungoo, Mrauk-U, Konbaung kings are at a stub or start level. Likewise with war articles. The Toungoo Dynasty and Konbaung Dynasty articles are in shambles.) Given the amount of work ahead, spending time on the GA process hasn't been a priority.

That said, I definitely want key articles to GA and beyond, not least because I'd like more eyes monitoring them. You might notice that I've been creating articles on auxiliary topics in the candidate articles to eliminate red links there. It's a slow and grinding process; as you know, even short (seemingly minor) articles take a lot of time to research. It's slowly getting there. E.g., I've eliminated most of the reds in the Tabinshwehti article; I still need to start Toungoo–Mrauk-U War (1545–47), Toungoo–Ava War (1538–45), List of rulers of Martaban. (I could not red-link them but red linking is a good way to force me to work on topics I consider important.)

Anyway, I do plan to start the GA process for at least a couple of articles later this year. I'll certainly need help and guidance from other editors. I'd like to enlist you to contribute to improve the articles. Again, thank you for the kind words and encouragement. Regards, Hybernator (talk) 17:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Binnya Dala (minister-general)

Thanks for your article from the wiki and I Victuallers (talk) 00:02, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Burmese calendar

In the table between page 78 and 79, U Ohn Kyaing [Kyaing, 1964] said second era began at 1217 ME. That was why I put 1216 ME and before as the first era. Could you read the books in Burmese language? If so, I have scanned copy of the book at the following link.

https://googledrive.com/host/0B7WW8_JrpDFXTHRHbUJkV0FBdFU/UOhnKyaing_MyanmarCalendar.pdf

In that book, he mentioned the third era began at 1317 ME. But when I tried to formulate the insertion of intercalary day, I concluded that the effective beginning of the third era should be 1312 ME. I have written my approach at the following link:

http://cool-emerald.blogspot.sg/2013/06/algorithm-program-and-calculation-of.html

References

[Kyaing, 1964] Ohn Kyaing, "Myanmar Patkadain Thutaythana Kyan," Sarpaybeitman, 1964.

Yannaingaye (talk) 03:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Ko Yan Naing Aye. Your Cool Emerald paper is really impressive. (You should submit it to an academic journal for peer review.) I've just browsed through it and U Ohn Kyaing's book. I'll read them more thoroughly. Here are a few comments/questions:

• The current calendar no longer uses the Metonic cycle or any kind of 19-year cycle. Big and small leap years are determined purely from the number of excess days in the first 8 months of the year. I don't think this can even be called modified Metonic!
• You say expanding the excess day accumulation period to 10 months would keep the new year's day in Tagu. But the real question is would it keep the new year's day from slipping farther against the Gregorian calendar? That is, because the Burmese calendar is based on sidereal years, my understanding is that the new year's day will keep on drifting away against solar calendars.
• Can your formula work for dates prior to 22 March 638 (the epochal date)? For example, can it handle a Pyu era (Shalivahana era) date? Hybernator (talk) 01:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

---

Thank you, Hybernator.

• In my opinion, the term Metonic cycle is misleading for the current Myanmar calendar system and it should not be used. Unlike the old system, the years with the intercalary month are not related to 19 year Metonic cycle.

• Thanks again. It means (Chatterjee 1998: 150–151)'s assumption that the calendar is still on a 19-year cycle is incorrect. I'll go through (Ohn Kyaing 1964) and figure out how to alter the current text in the article. Hybernator (talk) 01:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Changing the period to 10 months should not affect the new year time which is based on sidereal year. It only makes adding intercalary month a bit earlier so that the month Kason does not come too early to be happened in the Thingyan time. If a have a spare time, I will try to develop a program to calculate for a few hundred years to check and prove it.

• I wonder how much benefit it'll bring by going to 10 months from 8 today. We've had Hnaung Kason years in history. Though I can see why we don't want the calendar to be too out-of-sync, how many Hnaung Kason years will we avoid by going to 10? The benefit might be marginal. Anyway, please go ahead with the calculations and proof. More academic analyses can only help. Hybernator (talk) 01:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• My formula only works for second and third era only. For the first era back to 638 CE, I used a table look up method.

Best regards, Yannaingaye (talk) 07:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Royal Historical Commission of Burma

Could you be so kind to give me the name of the Royal Historical Commission of Burma in Burmese script, please. (Have you heard something new about guinea pig in Burmese calendar? ;) )Jeremiasz (talk) 20:39, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

• Done. Added the Burmese name (modern-day usage) in the article. Note: the 19th century usage in the primary source Hmannan is a long run-on sentence about the authors being a group of learned monks and men.
• I still haven't got to the bottom of the guinea pig conundrum yet. Stay tuned.
• Btw, User:Wagaung answered your question about Insein Prison here.Hybernator (talk) 00:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Where do you take IPA transcription of Burmese words from? I take it from this site, but it is different than yours. I often add IPA transcription in pl-Wiki because Polish pronunciation of Burmese words transcripted to Latin is very different from proper one. Thank you for your help so far and be patient please - you are the only person knowing Burmese language and culture I have contact with :) Jeremiasz (talk) 10:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• I use Help:IPA for Burmese. You may want to create a similar page on Polish Wiki.
• No problems with the questions at all. I'll try to answer/help out as much as I can. It's always good to have outside/fresh pairs of eyes looking at Burma articles. I'd never have checked out the guinea pig story, for example. Cheers. Hybernator (talk) 00:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Here [1] is another converter developed by User:Lionslayer. Please take a look at it. PhyoWP *click 05:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot.Jeremiasz (talk) 05:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Maryam Shafipour

Hybernator, are you finished with this review, or is there more to come? The review is unsigned, which is a problem. Please make sure this is completed. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:38, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

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Alaungpaya

I am just translating Alaungpaya. So I have some questions: 1. Would you be so kind to translate and write in the Burmese scripts Alaungpaya's titles: Bala Nanda Kyaw and Thiri Pawara Wizaya Nanda Zahta Maha Dharma Yazadiyaza Alaung Mintayagyi. 2. Is "Aung Zeya" translation as Victorious Success acceptable? Victorious Victory sounds rather awkwardly in Polish translation. 3. Similarly, can I translate Alaungpaya as Buddha who is to be born? The word embryo has rather unpleasent associations in Polish (it sounds rather like medical term). 4. What does it mean Konbaung? I can't find explanation of the name of this dynasty. If it is not the name of the city (like Pagan or Toungoo), so what is its origin? Thanks. Jeremiasz (talk) 05:20, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

1. Done
2. Both Aung and Zeya mean "victory". Aung is a native Burmese word (i.e. of Tibeto-Burman origin), and Zeya is a Burmese version of the Pali word Jayya. (Another common version of Jayya is ဇေယျာ).) So his name really does mean "Victory, Victory". Of course, translation isn't transliteration. And we should translate it in a way that makes sense in the receiving language.
3. Yeah, Embryo Buddha is a common but suboptimal translation. Alaungpaya means "One Who Is the Future Buddha", i.e. Maitreya. I've changed the text in the article.
4. Konbaung is one of the five names of Shwebo, given by Alaungpaya. It literally means a "Platform on Land". (For the Burmese reading this, "baung" (ဘောင်) here is an archaic spelling of "ဖောင်" (barge/platform). It doesn't mean railing/border.) It's supposed to mean "Earth's Platform to Nirvana". It's typically translated as "Heaven's Platform" in books written by Western historians, which is incorrect IMO. (Nirvana is not the same as Heaven in Buddhism, and Platform to Nirvana is different from Nirvana's Platform.)

By proclaiming himself "Alaungpaya", Aung Zeya was claiming that he was the Future Buddha, and by renaming his little village of Moksobo Konbaung, he was claiming that Moksobo would be the platform from which he would attain Nirvana (the Buddhahood). (I'll work on Konbaung articles in due time. I'm still working on Toungoo ones.) Thanks for the questions. Hybernator (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Hsinbyushin Medaw

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Ko Ko Gyi

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:29, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Royal?

Hi. In this article မြန်မာ ရာဇဝင် ကျမ်းများ is translated as The royal chronicles of Burma. What does ကျမ်းများ literally mean? If မြန်မာ is Burmese and ရာဇဝင် is chronicle, so ကျမ်းများ should mean royal. But I have found that the meaning of ကျမ်း is "wooden strips to keep palm-leaf manuscripts in place" (and များ means many). So, does မြန်မာ ရာဇဝင် ကျမ်းများ really mean The royal chronicles of Burma? Regards from Jeremiasz (talk) 19:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• ကျမ်း means a treatise, (almost) always used with ancient works of literature on specific topics like astronomy, history, medicine, alchemy, and of course astrology and religion! The term "chronicle" here is "ရာဇဝင် ကျမ်း", literally, "treatise on history of kings".

• Never heard of ကျမ်း being "wooden strips to keep palm-leaf manuscripts in place". Where did you get this?! Do they mean ကြမ်း, as in ကြမ်းပြင်, wooden flooring? Both ကျမ်း and ကြမ်း are homonyms--pronounced [tɕáɴ]. In fact, another word ကျန်း is pronounced exactly the same way. (The Burmese language has many homonyms. So the spelling and context matter enormously.)

• "Royal Chronicles of Burma" is the title I chose for the article, in the spirit of Prof Than Tun's Royal Orders of Burma, the 9-volume compilation of royal orders from late 16th century Toungoo to Konbaung periods. (Btw, Than Tun's assessment is that the Maha Yazawin Chronicle and later chronicles were written chiefly based on the royal orders.) "Royal" because almost all the extant chronicles are crown-sponsored ones. (Yazawin Kyaw is an exception.)

• "Royal" is typically translated as "တော်", and more formally but less frequently as, "တော်ဝင်". If I were transliterating "Royal Chronicles of Burma", it would be "မြန်မာ ရာဇဝင် ကျမ်းတော်များ". But it would be a bit too formal and deferential. In this case, I feel မြန်မာ ရာဇဝင် ကျမ်းများ conveys the essence to most Burmese readers. My two cents. Hybernator (talk) 05:44, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

1. Thanks for answer. I took translation for ကျမ်း from SEALang library. They propose "treatise; thesis" as well - it was my wrong choice as you can see.
2. There is probably improper link in Burmese chronicles (table): it is Min Sithu now, but it should be Min Sithu, I suppose. I have no bibliographic sources to check and correct this (probable) error alone, so could you be so kind to do it on your own?

Best regards. Jeremiasz (talk) 13:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

PS. Burmese culture is like ocean, but Burmese language is like Mariana Trench... :((

• I'm sure every culture is like an ocean. But I agree, because the country had been in isolation for so long that things Burmese (not just the language) could seem so unfathomable to outsiders. Totally understandable. Btw, it's Min Sithu of Toungoo. Just fixed it. Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 03:05, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Sawlumin inscription

I am confused after writing the article. If it was inscribed in 415 ME, Sawlu ascended to the Pagan throne before 1052/53. However, the date is against most of the Burmese chronicles and per scholarship. I want to know your opinion regarding life and reign around Anawrahta-Kyansittha if the stone was inscribed during Sawlu's reign. PhyoWP *click 15:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the reminder. I meant to work on it but got distracted. The inscription, if its provenance is ascertained and the scripts can be dated to the 11th century, will revolutionize our current understanding.

• This inscription's date is directly in conflict with Myazedi's dates.
• But I urge caution. The inscription could be a recast inscription from a later period. For example, there is a famous Ava period inscription about King Sithu I. (It's famous because it caused a disagreement (one of many) between G.H. Luce and U Htin Aung. This particular disagreement was about King Kyansittha's death year / Sithu I's accession year. The inscription states Sithu I came to power in 476 ME (1114/15 CE). Htin Aung disregarded that, preferring to stay with the contemporary Myazedi's date of 474 ME (1112/13 CE) whereas Luce hedged by taking the midpoint between the two inscriptions. Luce used 475 ME (1113/1114) as the death year of Kyansittha. Htin Aung disagreed with Luce's use of non-contemporary inscription.)

• Overall, I'm disappointed with the reporting thus far by the Burmese media and with the so-called experts. (Although Tampawaddy U Win Maung, AFAIK, is a foremost Pagan expert inside Myanmar today.) The experts seem to have homed in on what I consider non-essential points of the find! I'm particularly appalled by Nai Ba Shin's statement: "From just a few words that we were able to read in the Mon language, it said that King Sawlu ruled the nation by the teachings of Lord Buddha. This means Sawlu was not a bad king as history has portrayed him." What does being a devout Buddhist have to do with being an effective king?! Burmese history is littered with devout but ineffective kings. And is this the only important thing the experts have to say about this find? Don't they have anything to say about the points I've made in the article? Incredible. Hybernator (talk) 01:05, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Phyo WP likes this.

• Just occurred to me that it would also prove to be the earliest Burma Mon script (40 years earlier than the currently accepted earliest instance of Burma Mon). Surely, a Mon script expert like Nai Ba Shin should have mentioned that. Anyway, I don't want to pick on Ba Shin or anyone. The reporters might have simply picked up on whatever they wanted in the copy. I'll give these "experts" the benefit of the doubt.
• Anyway, it's definitely a significant find. Given that it contains the Pyu script, it's most probably from the early-to-mid Pagan Empire period (since the current understanding is that the use of Pyu script had died out by the early 13th century.) If epigraphists can reasonably conclude that the various scripts and their syntax/usage can be narrowed down to the 11th century, it would force historians to reconsider several aspects not only of the early Pagan period but also of the history of Tai-Shan peoples. (I highly doubt that it's a Tai-Shan script. I wish the experts didn't speculate without having considered the implications of their speculations. But I'll keep an open mind.) Hybernator (talk) 22:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

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Template:Did you know nominations/Akbar Etemad

Please see note on your DYK review. Yoninah (talk) 22:27, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Writer's Barnstar
	Thanks for creation and expansion of many articles relating to History of Burma. PhyoWP *click 20:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Yaza Datu Kalaya

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Few questions about Maha Bandula

1. Why Maha Bandula wanted to be called Nga Yit ? The situation described in the article is unclear. The key question is what does it mean Nga, I suppose.
2. What does it mean Ne Myo Thura Yegaung (နေမျိုး သူရ ရဲခေါင်)?
3. And last but not least: what does it mean Maha Bandula? The Great ...

With best regards Jeremiasz (talk) 06:44, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

1. Nga is a Burmese honorific--a very diminutive one at that--for males. It was how Burmese royals addressed their male subjects (excluding the monks, of course). Only the royal males could use honorifics like Min or Saw, etc. Of course, the king and senior royals could still refer to lesser ranked royals as Nga. Maung Yit was a commoner, from the royal servant (ahmudan) background. His lord would certainly have called him Nga Yit, nothing else. (Btw, nowadays, the use of Nga is considered very rude, and it's rarely used at all. You'd use it only with people you're really close to as a term of endearment.)
2. Ne means the Sun or solar. Myo means type/kind, lineage, nation. Thura is the Burmese form of Pali Sura. I'm not sure about the actual Pali meaning--the Pali-English dictionary says some deity/god or king of gods. But in Burmese usage, it's used to mean "great bravery" as in thura-thatti. Ye means bravery. Khaung or Gaung in this sense means the topmost, utmost. Altogether, it's something like: "Utmost Bravest of the Solar Linage." (Translation can be better.) I should note that though most Burmese names are composed of words with meanings, people just don't think too deeply about it. I meant to tell you this when you asked me about the name "Aung Zeya". Yes, it does mean "Victory, Victory" but to most people, it's just a name. Just like most Westerners won't think of what the name Michael actually means in Hebrew. That said, Burmese titles do have meanings. I suspect (pure speculation) names like Ne Myo (of solar lineage) came from then prevailing belief that the Burmese monarchs descended from a solar spirit. (It was only after the First Anglo-Burmese War that Hmannan linked the monarchy to the clan of the Buddha.)
3. Not sure what Bandula means in Pali. (Some baby name web site says "charming" but I'm not so sure.) Anyway, the Burmese general was named after a Kosala general of that name during the Buddha's lifetime. There's a story about his wife Malika. I don't remember the details anymore. Hybernator (talk) 00:25, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Mingyi Swa

Hello! Your submission of Mingyi Swa at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 12:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

My apologies for not placing this here in a timely manner, I got distracted and forgot. The DYK nomination is perfectly ready for mainspace, the only issue is the image. It's a nice picture, but at the small size it is nearly impossible to differentiate the statue from the background. It is also not clear in the current wording how the picture relates to the hook. All the best, 78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 12:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the review and the minder. Just updated it. Hybernator (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Nawrahta Minsaw

Materialscientist (talk) 01:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Mingyi Swa

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:28, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Toungoo–Ava War (1538–45)

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Hkonmaing I of Onbaung–Hsipaw

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:03, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Toungoo–Mrauk-U War (1545–47)

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DYK for Minye Thihathu II of Toungoo

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

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suggestion

Hi Hybernator, thanks for your awesome articles on Burmese history! Since you use a lot of book references, may I suggest that you look into Template:Sfn? It takes a bit of time to get used to, but once you get a hang of it it makes life a lot easier: no more "ref" tags, and no more keeping track of ref names. Another tool I find very useful is http://reftag.appspot.com/. If the book you cite is on Google books, just enter the Google books url and it generates a nice citation template with all necessary fields filled in. Hope you'll find it useful too. Happy editing! -Zanhe (talk) 07:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the suggestion, Zanhe. I've looked into Sfn once but haven't really explored it. I tend to use ref tags because I can put in anything I want--not just in a book format. E.g., I could put in the Burmese calendar to Western calendar translation in the ref tag itself. Not sure if Sfn allows something like that--essentially a white space write-up. Anyway, I'll check out both Sfn and reftag. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 01:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	A heartfelt thank-you for your tireless contributions to Burmese history articles, such as Anawrahta, Bayinnaung, Alaungpaya, Nyaungyan Min, and numerous others. I've learned so much reading your work on this fascinating subject! Zanhe (talk) 07:11, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks very much, Zanhe! It means a lot coming from someone like you. Really appreciate it. Hybernator (talk) 02:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Nyaungyan Min

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

MAEU အကြောင်းကို ရေးပေးတဲ့ အတွက်ကျေးဇူးတင်ပါတယ် Mg Aung Myo Kyaw (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

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List of heirs to the Burmese thrones

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DYK for Family of Bayinnaung

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DYK for Shin Myat Hla of Ava

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DYK for Pwa Saw

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DYK for Yazathingyan of Pagan

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Could You translate it? Please...

The mnemonic written on the Mingun Bell: မင်းဖြူမှန်မှန်ပြော (White King Rightly Rightly Tells would be my proposal after looking to dictionaries, translators etc.). Jeremiasz (talk) 10:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Hi, welcome back. Long time, no talk. Well, it's a mnemonic, not to be taken literally. If you're looking for the literal meaning of each word, it's "Chief White Rightly Rightly Say". It can be translated as "Min Phyu, tell the truth!" since Min Phyu here is meant as a name (not its literal meaning as the Fair Chief.) As the article says, it's a mnemonic to remember that the Mingun bell weighs 55,555 viss. There are many other numerology-based mnemonics in Burmese. Back in the days, there was a special numerology-based poetry called thanbauk (သံပေါက်), closest of which in the West would be chronograms (although the scope of thanbauks was more than dates and much broader.) Hybernator (talk) 18:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

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DYK for First Mongol invasion of Burma

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Could You write it in Burmese script? Please...

The name of the Pagoda located on the top of Mandalay Hill. It is transliterated as Su Taung Phyi Phaya. Thx! Jeremiasz (talk) 05:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• It's ဆုတောင်းပြည့် ဘုရား ([sʰṵ dáʊɴ bjḛ pʰəjá]). Cheers, Hybernator (talk) 01:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

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Etymology of Bagan

Hi Hybernator -

Had a question about this change: [2] Do you have any sources supporting whether Bagan comes from Pukam (ပုကမ်) or Pyukam (ပျူကမ်)? Village in Pali is gāma (ဂါမ) so it does appear logical, but then again I'm not too sure. Thanks! --Hintha(t) 03:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for checking up on this, Ko Hintha. I hadn't noticed the change. Someone slipped that in without providing a valid citation. Pretty typical, sadly. I've just checked all the likely sources in my collection: (1) Khit Haung Myanmar Yazawin by Than Tun, 1964; (2) Social Life in Burma, 1044-1287, Than Tun, 1958; (3) Administration of Burma, by Than Tun, 1974; (4) Old Burma, Early Pagan, Vol. 2 by Luce, 1970. I don't have Old Burma volume 1 which *should* cover the etymology. Anyway, (Than Tun 1964: 117–118) does cover all the known names of Pagan (mostly from contemporary stone inscriptions), and it was Pukam (ပုကမ်). No Pyukam anywhere. (Btw, you can pick up a new version of Khit Haung; there's a recent reprint. I have the original, and it contains many articles on early Burmese history with several names as reported in the inscriptions.) Hybernator (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this, Ko Hybernator! Not sure if you're already aware, but the Myanmar Language Commission also recently published a PDF of this book: စာကိုးအဘိဓာန် (ပုဂံခေတ်၊ ပင်းယခေတ်) as well. --Hintha(t) 04:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Ko Hintha. Didn't know about the book. I wonder if this is largely similar to the one by Taw and Forchhammer: Inscriptions of Pagan, Pinya and Ava. You might also be interested in She-haung Myanma Kyauksa Mya (ရှေးဟောင်း မြန်မာ ကျောက်စာများ)--a 5-volume set that covers all the known stone inscriptions. (It's on my to-collect list. I *assume* it includes translations at least to modern Burmese. Ideally, they should be translated to English.) Hybernator (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Mon script

I have never formally studied Burmese or Mon, so I'm curious: isn't the Burmese alphabet a limited set of characters from the Mon script? I'm asking about this edit. Ogress _smash! 08:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the interest, Ogress. According to Michael Aung-Thwin's Chapter 7: Mists of Ramanna (pp. 154-–178), this is one of the least studied areas of Burmese history, and the British colonial period scholarship's conjectures have been taken up as fact without any evidence or contrary to available evidence. A few of Aung-Thwin's points in summary are:

• Colonial period linguistics scholar Charles Duroiselle first noted in 1919 that the Mon script and the Burmese script of the Pagan period were essentially the same, and that one must have borrowed from another. And since the prevailing academic opinion was that Pagan received its civilization from Thaton, he believed Mon was the parent of Burmese. In 1921, he modified his position by saying that Mon indirectly influenced Burmese but did not pursue other possibility that Pyu could have been the source. He offered no proof.
• In 1924, another scholar G.H. Luce, despite not being a linguist, not only affirmed Duroiselle's original take but went a step farther by asserting that the parent of the Mon script of Burma was the Old Mon script of Dvaravati (present-day Thailand). But he did not offer any proof of any kind--epigraphic, paleography or any other analysis.
• The Mon script of Burma and the Mon script of Dvaravati (Lopburi) are sufficiently different, and no proof that the two scripts are related has been offered. Dvaravati Mon's parent has been identified as Pallava-Garantha while the Burma Mon script's parent per Duroiselle was Kadamba (Old Telagu-Canarese). Yet, there is no scholarly effort to reconcile this. In fact, there has been no scholarly debate of any kind on the origin of the Burmese script.
• By the way, the dating of the Dvaravati (Lopburi) Mon inscription--dated anywhere between the 7th and 8th centuries by scholars (based on a Chinese text that says a kingdom existed in that region around that time)--is purely conjectural. In fact, of the 25 Dvaravati inscriptions recovered in Thailand, only one is securely dated -- to 1504! The rest are all conjectural.
• Extant available archaeological evidence shows that the earliest securely dated inscription of Burma Mon is 1093 while the earliest evidence of Burmese is 1035 (984, if an 18th century recast inscription is permissible as evidence). The earliest conjecturally dated Burma Mon is c. 1050 (by Luce, who again didn't offer how arrived at the date).
• The first scholar to suggest that Pyu may be the source of Burmese was Tha Myat. Based on his studies of several Pyu inscriptions of the 1st millennium, he showed how ancient Pyu evolved into Burmese in his books in the 60s. But Tha Myat, a self-taught linguist, wrote mainly in Burmese and thus don't get noticed by Western scholars. (Luce, who read Burmese, referenced Tha Myat's works in his books but was silent on Tha Myat's conclusions as they were contrary to his.)

Now, Aung-Thwin himself is not a linguist. He is simply pointing out that there is no evidence or proof that (1) Dvaravati Mon and Burma Mon are related; and that (2) Burma Mon is older than Burmese (whereas the Pyu script had been around in central Burma since the 4th century). He believes the Pyu origin needs to be further explored. Pyu and Burmese were ethnically, linguistically related, and they lived side by side for centuries. Pagan had become a rising power since the 10th century, sending out diplomatic missions to China and India. It didn't make sense that the Burmans of Pagan didn't bother to have a written script all the while and suddenly decided to establish a script only after conquering Lower Burma in the 1050s.

In general, this is the state of Burma/Myanmar studies. We're still stuck in old conjectures. Burmese history studies in the last five decades has come to a grinding halt whereas other countries in the region have already moved beyond the colonial period understandings, by a few iterations/cycles. Hybernator (talk) 16:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've just come across a couple of tidbits of info. Turns out Tha Myat was not the only one to question Luce. Luce's protege Than Tun referenced Tha Myat's work and expressed doubt on both Mon being the parent of the Burmese script (Than Tun 1964: 104), and the Thaton conquest story itself, since "there's no evidence" (Than Tun 1964: 119). In fact, per (Aung-Thwin 2005: 295), (Than Tun 1964) was the only place where Than Tun questioned Luce's theories; Than Tun, Aung-Thwin suggests perhaps out of respect for his teacher/mentor, never challenged Luce in English, which would have made doubts more internationally known. Hybernator (talk) 22:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for updating me. I actually ordered a copy of Mists of Ramañña out of interest and I'm making my way through it. I've introduced the information in a few pages and it seems to be slowly percolating through Wikipedia: I saw somewhere that someone had added "or Pyu" with a cite to MoR to a phrase that originally said "originated from the Mon script". It is frustrating, and since there is no Burmese community where I live AFAIK (although every other SEA one), I am not really getting far with learning Burmese. I have studied a few tonal languages, so that part is fine, but without living speakers, I'm kind of not getting anywhere. I was hoping to work on some of the Burmese pages with more knowledge than I have now... Don't forget that since it's been like a month since we last spoke you can get my attention in your replies using the {{yo}} template ({{yo|username}}). Ogress _smash! 01:35, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the interest, Ogress. MoR can be quite impenetrable, even for the Burmese already familiar with a lot of the names and concepts. I do think that it's certainly one of the most important scholarly works on Burmese history. Period. Aung-Thwin certainly may not get everything right but it's healthy for least researched areas like Burma studies to have more scholars challenge basic assumptions/conjectures. I don't fault historians having working theories/conjectures--it's part of the job. But those conjectures, I hope, are at least grounded in some evidence, and regularly vetted by peers. In less covered areas like Burma studies, the views of a few historians, usually of Western background, get a lot more press, coverage, even in academia. The sad thing is that they don't even have to be Burma specialists. For example, DGE Hall didn't even speak or read Burmese; yet, he wrote one of the few history books in English on Burmese history. Likewise, with GE Harvey, whose command of Burmese was at best questionable. But I don't blame them. The issue to me is the country's inability to produce competent historians like Than Tun and Aung-Thwin that can do serious basic research and publish the findings to the rest of the world. (It's inexcusable that we don't still have full English translations of the royal chronicles--which have so much detail that would benefit not only Burma studies but also studies of neighboring states like Thailand and Laos.) Stating the obvious: the country needs to rebuild education and academic studies (along with everything else) from the ground up. That will take time. Good luck reading MoR, and learning Burmese. Hybernator (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of List of Burmese consorts

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DYK for List of Burmese consorts

Gatoclass (talk) 13:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Journal of the Burma Research Society expansions

Hi Ko Hybernator - It would be a shame to see JBRS be deleted from WP for failing to pass the 'notability' test when it has in fact been profoundly important in modern day scholarship of Burmese history, language, and culture. If you have anything else to contribute to the article, feel free to add here: Journal of the Burma Research Society. Thanks. --Hintha(t) 03:05, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Ko Hintha, thanks for your updates to the article. It's surreal that we even need to have this debate. While AGF on the part of the editor who tagged it, it's hard not to think of this as a case of Wikipedia:Systemic bias. This is worse than a case last year with Rakhine Razawin Thit: someone thought it might be "a complete fake" because he/she couldn't find it on the Internet. At least that person searched the Internet. Here, apparently not. There are plenty of notable references to JBRS on the Internet. Anyway, thanks for your vigilance and contributions. Hybernator (talk) 13:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

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Burmese alphabet

Hi Hybernator, there seems to be nobody around who speaks Burmese in de-wiki. Could you please have a look at de:Kyizi and add the Burmese letters. What ist the literal meaning of kyi-zi? Thanks -- Bertramz (talk) 17:55, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Done. The literal meaning is "bronze drum"--ကြေး (bronze) စည် (drum). Now, it should be translated as "gong". Hybernator (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again. -- Bertramz (talk) 05:41, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

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The temples in Burma

There is no indication that the ancient Dravidians /Indians built these temples .. The Burmese people certainly lacked knowledge in the areas of architecture etc. even the writing is of Indian origin The ancient Indians have influenced the world so much but it is hidden ummmm Jebrahmin (talk) 06:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

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Possibly a new article?

Hello again. I'd though of this topic long ago but uncertain of it. Your new article First Toungoo Empire encouraged me to raise it to your attention. According to the map, for a while, Burma had shared a land border with Dai Viet. This might sound little strange and no quite but such thing did exist (according to the map). Do u think u have enough idea and source to start a new article describing the former Burma-Vietnam border?

Further, in 1479-80, Dai Viet army invaded the Burmese kingdoms in the Irrawaddy valley. This could serve as a background.

Thirdly, plz DON'T use the name "Annam" when referring to Viet Nam. The gov't and citizens of the country likely never refer to themselves as Annam, except when the fuedal gov't conducted diplomat missions to the so-called Chinese Empire. Instead, henceforth, plz use "Dai Viet". Cheer. ༆ (talk) 00:02, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello ༆, Burma/Myanmar and states in modern Vietnam shared a "border"--in the sense of overlapping spheres of influence (rather than a modern-day demarcated version) in the 16th century as well as in the 18th century when the Laotian states were briefly under Burmese suzerainty (1765–78). To your point, Dai Viet, in the 15th century, could have shared a border with some of the Shan states, which now belong to modern Myanmar.

As for your link about the Le army's supposed march to the Irrawaddy, IMO, it's quite improbable. To do so, they needed to have marched across a series of forbidding hills, and hostile Tai-Shan states, which in the 15th century were no walkovers. Even if they were allowed to march undisturbed by the states en route, it still would have taken at least 3 months from Luang Prabang to reach central Burma. (According to the Burmese chronicles, in 1574, it took Bayinnaung's armies 60 marches (60 days) from Pegu (Bago) to Vientiane through Siam, which was then under his rule.) If they began the march in the dry season of 1479–80, meaning c. Nov. 1479, to Lan Xang, and even if they took Luang Prabang without a fight, the Le army probably wouldn't have begun farther marches until c. January 1480. They certainly would first have consolidated their gains there, establish supply lines, etc. To undertake an expedition to the Irrawaddy--for what purpose?--they would have had to go through either Lan Na or Keng Tung and a series of Shan states (if the eventual target was Ava/Upper Burma); or Lan Na or Siam (if the target was Pegu/Lower Burma). Even if these states simply allowed a foreign army to walk on by, the army would reached the Irrawaddy valley c. April, leaving them with a month or so before the rainy season to take Ava or Pegu. Unless they had a huge army and long, well guarded supply lines to sustain a long fight, they would have been obliterated there, just from starvation and disease. Even better supplied armies of Bayinnaung still died in thousands in the Lan Xang hills and jungles.

And, finally, for what purpose? Why not defeat Keng Tung, Lan Na, or Siam first? Of course, the Burmese chronicles say of no such event either in the Ava Kingdom and the Hanthawaddy Kingdom--the two states that controlled the Irrawaddy. I highly doubt Chiang Mai or Siamese chronicles have a record of a foreign army walking past their territory unmolested, either.

As for the use of Annam in the article, I used it only because it was the term used by my citations: the Burmese chronicles in Burmese as well as historians from Harvey to Than Tun in English. Anyway, thanks for the information. Hybernator (talk) 18:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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