User talk:Deepak D'Souza/Archive 1

Konkani Language

Deepak I do understand your concerns. However I just don't understand how you have come to conclusions like these.

"Please desist form adding useless links to personal web pages. With regard to your work on savemylanguage.com, I appreciate your efforts for Konkani. But, please understand that there are multiple dictionaries for Konkani online, yours is not the only one. The extarnal links are meant to point to academic articles, not your favourite pages. I will not remove your link form the Konkani language page this time, but if you do not follow the guidlines I will be forced to do so"

Its not a personal webpage. The site is purely academic in nature (and is based on the most scientific of linguistic principles). (With core inputs from the University Of Oxford, which again is a reputed university). The link per se is totally relevant to the 'Konkani Language' page, academically or otherwise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RoshanRameshPai (talk • contribs) 11:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Konkani Language

I thought as much. The previous comments I had received were for the 2 links I placed in categories which were not as per the 'External Links' rules. Those were my early days in WikiPedia. I have accepted the arguments put forth and removed the links. However these particular comments should have no bearing on this particular case.

Taking 'English' as an example would not be relevant. As English language has its own section on 'English Dictionary', 'Online english dictionaries', and 30 to 40 others related specific articles, where the relevant links can be placed. While 'Konkani' has only 'Konkani Language' & 'Konkani People'.

About online Konkani Dictionaries, where have you seen so many of them. There are a maximum 3 of them (and many are not dictionaries and have less than 500 words each). (Guess you are talking of links to dictionary books, or articles on konkani dictionaries etc)

As per the stipulated suggestions for inclusion, "Is it proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?" Yes the particular website satisfies these conditions. And it is academic in nature. (I totally accept the steps you took when you deleted the groups listings the 'Konkani Language' page)

RoshanRameshPai 14:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Konkani language article

Hi,

In the above article, the sections "Problems" and "Konkani vs Marathi" I feel is original research. The "Problems" section is OR while K vs M you've added a ref., but I dont see how it supports the content. Also, even if there is any disagreement about K's origins vis a vis M, it comes only from Marathi nationalists. It is not a mainstream scholarly view. Please reword the section appropriately. Also please clarify the ref you've added. It says, refer section 13, but I dont see any section 13 on that page. Sarvagnya 07:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

My reply:

W.r.t the post you have put, there is no section but I took the capital letter as deleniating a section. Search for the line "Konkani has had to painfully negotiate a controversy about the nature of its relationship with Marathi". It wasn't meant to be original resarch but it ended up that way because I had quoted it out of memory.Anyway now I have provided a link that puts it in detail. As far as User:Maharashtraexpress asking for a citation, I was surprised that he had asked for a citation rather than delete the line as I thought any Maharashtrian Wikipedian would. Nothing wrong with it , after all it was a controversial point, and he was well within his rights to as per Wikiepdias policies. Lets stay decent as long as the other party stays so.

--Deepak D'Souza 08:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply Sarvagnya 09:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sir, the citation u provided about Konkani VS Marathi has no mention about Samyukta Maharashtra movement. Morever there's nothing called 'Marathi nationalists' or 'figment of Marathi nationalists' imagination' as another person claimed.Rather we can say, inclusion of Konkani in schedule is determined by politicians rather than historians. Anyways, i request u to remove the mention of SMM. Maharashtraexpress 16:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please refer to my reply on User:Maharashtraexpress talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Maharashtraexpress#Konkani_Language_Article --Deepak D'Souza 06:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sir, A language or a dialect is not a property of a certain group or community. Goans dont like Konkani to be known as dialect of Marathi and they are entitled to their opinion. However u must be aware that there are sizeable no of Konkanis in Maharashtra who consider themselves as Maharashtrians. There are 'sizeable' Konkanis who are more than happy to accept the 'dialect theory of Marathi nationalists'!! Irrespective of our differences,Marathis have never looked down upon Konkani dailect or people,it is Goan konkanis who hate us from the depth of their heart!

SMM always considered the Goa to be a part of Maharashtra,but it isnt like they 'termed' Konkani as Marathi's dialect for the sake of inclusion of Goa.Maharashtra and Marathis have gracefully accepted plebiscite (which we lost by a low margin) so please dont drag SMM in this debate. Please carry out the changes you wish but dont show SMM or so called Marathi nationalists in bad light!

Just FYI, few Konkani historians claimed that Dnyaneshwari was in Konkani, so i prefer not to believe the Konkani historian's perspective of Konkani being a seperate language. For us Konkani is a dialect and we respect her sweetness very much. And this is not because we want Goa :) Maharashtraexpress 11:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Please refer to my reply on User:Maharashtraexpress talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Maharashtraexpress#Konkani_Language_Article --Deepak D'Souza 12:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

A majority of the 3 lakh Konkanis in Maharashtra are migrants from Goa and Karnataka( i happen to be from the latter). No I have not included u in my list. I meant migrators and not outsiders.Migrators who have migrated before centuries and who report themselves as Maharashtrians (and language as Marathi). Trust me,there are many. And Konkani is not a registered trademark of Konkanis of Goa and Karnataka.

ho include Malwanis and Konkani muslims)do really consider themselves to be Marathis? Macchindra Kambli, B.R.Antuley (respectively)are just the prominient examples.

Also let me remind you that the Census Board of India counts Malwani as a dialect of Konkani. I am sure they must be. Some smart historians even claimed that Marathi is dialect of Konkani, Jnaneshwari is in Konkani etc etc! Malwani people are proud to be part of Maharashtra.

a direct attack on Konkani No one will since no Maharashtrian will take pride in insulting a dialect (or a 'language') which is so close to Marathi.

should let you know his opposition to a plebicite sugested by another SMM leader. I doubt the SMM was really happy about holding a plebicite. And FYI we lost the plebicite with marginal difference. So in a way some 45-48% of Goans wanted to be the part of SM. Parrikars and Ranes have enjoyed the CM post,this should clear the doubts of no of Marathis in Goa!

Sadobaa Kanhobaa Patil haa kanhobaachaach aahe ka, yaavar matadaan ghyaa. ek veL sadobaa kaanhobaachaa nasel, paN Goa mahaaraaShtraachach aahe! We really miss Acharya Atre.No one could answer zealots as perfectly as him. tyachbarobar Parrikar-Ranechya rupane Goa Maharashtrachach aahe,nahi ka?

Just because you do not agree with one point with one Konkani historian , you reject Konkani history alotgether!!!!! If I use your logic, just because I disagree with Marathis that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi I will be forced to believe that Marathi has no history!!! Ha Ha HA. Just think about it! Believe me self-confessed historians claim more hillarious things!The other ones I have included in this answer. Why do u need to shoot Marathi in order to love Konkani 'language'?Jnaneshwari in Konkani was a sixer,i swear!

The Sahitya Akademi has recognized Konkani as an independent language in 1975(a decioion made by a neutral commitee). In 1992 it was added to the 8th schedule as a National Language. Your refernece to 1911Enc Brit is more valuable than the decision of a democratically elected government of 100 cr people!!!! Amazing weithtage! Govt decisions cannot be compared with scholarly opinions. That the silliness of inclusion of Konkani in 8th schedule by 'congressmen' is revealed to u.I have quoted a fact.Again stop assuming the patent rights of Konkani.

Last of all , Konkanis never had any doubts about where they belong. A few may have doubts, but the majority does not. It doest matter to us what 10 crore Marathis think about us. We have always been an independent language and community. You may have numbers but you cannot control our minds. Who wants to? Its Konkani 'nationalists' who love to hate us.You have not left any stone unturned to prove ur 'distinction' or supremacy.There are thousands of Pais, Kamats, Shanbaugs who feel proud about their Marathiness. Whether we call it as language or dialect Marathis never wanted to insult Konkani.Rather than hating Marathi work for enrichment of 'language'. We too care less about what others think about our language and its dialects. We dont need certification from the 'lost ones' about a dialect of our language. Those who think they belong to us,belong to us and others are free to claim whatever they want. The zealots, self-confessed historians or politicians are only bringing disgrace to ur cause. Anyways best of luck for Konkani wikipedia. Maharashtraexpress 14:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Konkani Language Article

Thank you for your message. I have replied on the talk page. I look forward to your new article on the history of Konkani.

Max ^{- You were saying?} 14:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Deepak,

The draft looks good, but needs a lot of work in terms of formatting and grammar, which I'm sure you will do shortly. However, there are some parts which read like original research, especially the one on Problems. You've said that you'll add citations later and I'll take your word for that. In an effort to write an article that conforms to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, I would suggest you to thoroughly read WP:NPOV, WP:A and WP:A/FAQ (my apologies if you have read these already).

As for the section on Marathi-Konkani, I will do my best to reformat it (I just need a some time because I'm a bit busy currently). However, I reiterate that we are not here to judge what are "facts" and what are not (referring to your statement that facts should not be sidelined), but only to report information, backed with reliable citations, to interested readers.

Thanks for your time.

- Max ^{- You were saying?} 15:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Kannada script for Konkani

Hi Deepak, I just happened to see the modifications done by you for Kannada script for Konkani. I'm just curious, isn't ಕೊಂಕಣಿ the right pronounciation? I've never seen Konkani written as ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ in Kannada. Please advise. Gnanapiti 04:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Deepak, I just saw your edit in Konkani article. ಕೊಂಕಣಿ is the right Kannada spelling in Kannada and not ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ. We can discuss further in article talk page, if required. Thanks. - KNM ^Talk 05:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I have Put my points on the Konkani Language talk page --Deepak D'Souza 05:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Deepak, you are entitled to ur opinions and so am i. The problems were arised due to ur mean comments about SMM. I am sorry if u r been offended by any of my message. Maharashtraexpress 12:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The language u used for SMM was wrong. I have looked into the final draft and frankly I am not pleased by it. But as stated earlier,I shall not interfere. You rightly said that you can't please everyone everytime. Its not a secret that we consider that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi and its mention (in Marathi) is inevitable. 1911 Britannica Encyclopedia might be outdated,but the rules of science, history and linguistics dont change from 'time to time'. This is the answer about your objection of its usage. In addition to that their are many foreign historians and linguists who have had said the same thing.

Marathis insist that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi because we really think so.This is not because we look down upon Konkani or Konkanis.Despite the dispute we have always loved Konkani and a considerable Konkani populace (in MH) consider themselves as Maharashtrians. Maharashtra has got a raw deal in State recog. act and still our state is quite big. The dialect thing is not because we wanted to grab Goa. We have understood that Goan Konkanis dont want to be known as Marathis, we have stopped wooing them.Those who think that they belong to us,they are ours and rest are not. But Konkani, is not governed or owned by anyone. You can decide about yourself but not about Konkani. We certainly have a stake in Konkani as she is closely related to our 'matrubhasha'. Understand this that we(marathis+konkanis in MH) too love and respect Konkani. You can hate us, but u cant break our bonds(with Konkani). I am sorry!I again started with the same issue.

So let us not interfere and give headache to each other. You are doing Konkani and I am doing Marathi. As said earlier,we cant please each other but let us keep the stuff as NPOV as possible :)

I deleted my earlier message to stop the fights and i think i said a mean thing about Konkanis. Even if u dont consider us,we regard u as Kokani bhau so sorry for that. Maharashtraexpress 14:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Good work!

Hello Deepak
Congratulations for the good work done on the Konkani language article! It looks much more informative and balanced now (with lots of citations :-)).

You have written the Konkani-Marathi section very well. I've just reworded and moved some stuff around in an effort to make it sound more coherent. Take a look and let me know if there are any problems.

Regards, Max ^{- You were saying?} 19:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Sir we are going in the same debate.I request you to understand that I and u are not going to decide the fate of Konkani/Marathi dispute. I have added the text backed by a source. So i request u to stop the debate. Regarding the maths, I have pointed out that 'appeasement' is an important characteristic of Indian politics. Their is no POV in this page. It is a fact that many Marathi/Konkani people in MH do consider Konkani as dialect of Marathi and they do consider 'inclusion of konkani in schedule' is politically motivated decision.(pl see the link) Maharashtraexpress 07:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No POV

The line is no POV. It is a fact that Marathis consider Konkani as dialect. This is a fact that according to Marathis, inclusion of Konkani in schedule was 'politically motivated'. This is again a fact that Marathis contest the inclusion. All I have written are facts backed by source. Plz see the source website which is based in Goa itself.

I have taken into account yours and MAximusDecimus opinions on the Konkani Language page. I disagree. You have pointed out how Konkani is a seperate language and how Marathis conspired to get Goa in a mild way.Now for us its a POV.As i said earlier,i have not interfered again wiht Konkani page.

You have reverted counterarguments placed by DrShenoy in the same section. Dont you think your action goes against the NPOV policy? I am sorry.The assertions lacked sources.

I have only removed one line. The rest of the content is unaffected and offers both opposing views. Exactly. We have pointed out that Constitution considers Konkani as a seperate language.

I have already stated my counter-points of you "appeasement" Please see the source website of Gomantak Marathi academy. Maharashtraexpress 07:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC) I have read it and I am not surprised that you like it so much. I liked it very much,obviously as it calls spade a spade.

it reffers to Goan Konkanis as पोर्तुगीजधार्जिणी Those who speak nonsense and want to create divide amongst Marathi people/language are deserved to known as that.

Absurd! U have many misconceptions. Since marathi and konkani are not related how come u understood the marathi language? hahahaha!

So what is the Marathi Gomantak Academy's job? to promote Marathi or to issue certificates to "true Goans"? True Goans are those who acknowledge the cultural and historical and linguistic facts. MGA knows its job very well.

Listen i am in no mood to quarrel with u. The facts are presented along with source. So can we stop this debate? I am not forcing u to acknowledge urself as maharashtrian,but dont think Konkani is wholly owned subsidery of Goa/Goans. Maharashtraexpress 12:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In reply

You are in no mood to quarrel with me ? Then why do you?

• Since marathi and konkani are not related how come u understood the marathi language? hahahaha!

How did you assume that I don't know Marathi. I think I told you once that I have been born in Mumbai.I have studied Marathi in School and understand it quite well.In fact I used to score more than at least half the Marathis in my class. Now laugh!

• Those who speak nonsense and want to create divide amongst Marathi people/language are deserved to known as that. Your point is that someone who does not agree with your world-view should be called offensive names?

• U have many misconceptions. Who are you to certify my knowledge or misconceptions as you call it? Can I not similarly call your opinion as misconception,merely because you disagree with me?

• True Goans are those who acknowledge the cultural and historical and linguistic facts. MGA knows its job very well. How, by insulting Konkanis? Is that your idea of a job done well?

• Listen i am in no mood to quarrel with u. Good! Stop! Nobody forced you to.

• but dont think Konkani is wholly owned subsidery of Goa/Goans It is not . let me repeat what I have told you before: We don't own Konkani , We belong to it. A mother cannot belong to her children. Her children belong to her.

And finally Goans arent the only speakers of Konkani(which is where your thinking ends) The Majority of Konkani speakers are from Canara. --Deepak D'Souza 12:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)9Added this comments back from User:maharashtraExpress talk page)

We don't own Konkani , We belong to it. A mother cannot belong to her children. Her children belong to her.

Well said. Marathi is mother of Konkani,so obviously all Maharashtrians respect and love Konkani. Any efforts to 'disown' us shall not be tolerated. Once again Konkani is ours too and we dont need permission from sahitya academy or consitution to say Konkani is ours. No laws can seperate Marathi from Konkani. The so-called mother of urs gets her name from Maharashtrian region! Now speak!! I encourage u to talk with a Malwani person and his language and culture will show u the relations of Marathi and Konkani. He/she will not care what constitution or sahitya academy thinks of his/her dialect.

STOP bothering me. Maharashtraexpress 14:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Maharashtraexpress had deleted my points from his talk page. 
I have pasted a copy of it on my own userpage for reference. 
If you wish to view it: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deepak_D%27Souza/MaharashtraExpress_Debate

Good work

Good work Deepak. I would love to contribute but the problem off late has been lack of time. Another area of concern is many people only speak konkani and cant write. I myself can speak various dialects of konkani but writing does get problematic. Which dialect do we maintain as standard? Yessrao a.k.a Sushanth 16:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Maharashtraexpress 27 March 2007:" hortes indicus malbarics "

I have pic of hortes indicus malbarics (1678AD-Amsterdam) probably Konkani's first print. Maharashtraexpress 06:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Here it is- Maharashtraexpress 11:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Didnt find any links online. I got this pic from a book tracking history of printing of Marathi. Maharashtraexpress 11:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes i too thought that it is Marathi. I wanted mattaykrut shubhavartaman and found it including this. But since i don't follow either Konkani or Marathi used at that period i didn't dig further. This is BTW the first known print of Nagari. Maharashtraexpress 17:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. No problem. Maharashtraexpress 06:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

For others who are curious:

The above image is a portion of text from a book called "hortes indicus malbarics", which may be the first printed book in the Devanagiri script. It is a bit difficult to read it properly. From what we could judge it was written by Vinayak Pandit and is probably a Northern Konkani dialect with significant Marathi influence. The book itself may be in Marathi and/or Konkani.

If anybody can help us with more information and sources, we would be grateful --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 09:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

As it happens, I've seen one of the original copies of this book. The correct name is Hortus Indicus Malabaricus or, more briefly, Hortus Malabaricus. The book was commissioned by the Dutch East India Company to document medicinal plants in India, in large part for their own use. The text in the picture is almost certainly Konkani - Vinayaka Pandit was a Konkani "vaidya" from Cochin. The book also has some Malayalam plates.

You'll find a little more information about the book here (and, of course, in Wikipedia's article about it). -- Arvind 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Also google books is a good place to start. If not the book itself, you'll find several books referring to whatever you may be searching. And then there is worldcat.org to try and trace down some book. Will let you know if I come across something. Sarvagnya 18:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Great! Wikipedia has an article and I was searching elswhere! Thanks, Arvind and Sarvagnya for your help.

Final

From the sources and the Wikipedia article it turns out that the book itself is not in Konkani/Marathi as Maharashtraexpress and I had thought. It is written in Latin but includes Malayalam and Konkani names. Thanks again to Arvind for clearing this misconception. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)