Template talk:Lang-tt

Spans

Needs language spans around the Tatar word or phrase, like this:

<span lang="tt" xml:lang="tt">{{{1}}}</span>

There are user scripts which depend on this. — CharlotteWebb 13:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Done.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:57, December 15, 2008 (UTC) 15:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 24 December 2013

Should the displayed content be italized, consistent with {{lang-ku}}, {{lang-tr}}, {{lang-az}}? —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC) —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Your answer is at MOS:Ety. We italicise foreign terms written in Latin script, but we don't italicise foreign terms written in other scripts. Tatar is complicated in that it has had three different writing systems, one Latin and two not, which means this might be a good subject for further discussion. However, we can't make the template italicise everything, as that would contradict the manual of style. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 13:46, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense. Thanks. —Largo Plazo (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 10 April 2022

Why is the text instantly italicized? Tatar seems to be written in Cyrillic, see their Wikipedia: [1]. There's also not a "|italics=no" parameter, which is pretty unhelpful. Super Ψ Dro 16:42, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

...there's also not a "|link=no" parameter. Super Ψ Dro 16:47, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: @User:Super Dromaeosaurus: The text is in intalics because The text is formatted according to recommendations in MOS:FOREIGNITALIC. |links= is available to remove links. Terasail^[✉️] 20:35, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Terasail, "Text in non-Latin scripts (such as Greek, Cyrillic or Chinese) should neither be italicized as non-English nor bolded". Super Ψ Dro 20:37, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

 Note: Reopen - I missed that part and just assumed the documentation was correct in its claims. I don't have the time at this minute to make any changes. Terasail^[✉️] 20:47, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done – |italics=no parameter and option added. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 05:21, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

User:Paine Ellsworth, I've tried adding this to the instances of this template at the start of Tartarstan and the |italics=no parameter doesn't seem to work? Furius (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Furius, there has been an outage in our area and we are just now getting back online. I'll start working on this. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 19:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for that! I'll add the parameter to the individual instances, so that this is ready for when you update the template :) Furius (talk) 20:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Furius, might want to wait on that, because it appears that the edit that introduced the ifeq functions will have to be reverted. The four Lang-tt templates used in the article you linked have been placed in my [sandbox]. The ifeq functions and the Wikimarkup italics have been removed from Template:Lang-tt/sandbox. This shows that the Wikimarkup italics make no difference in the outcome, nor do the ifeq functions. More to come. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 20:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

In that case, P. I. Ellsworth, I should probably note that in the process of doing this, I have found a work around that might save you the labour. {{lang|tt|{{lang|tt-Cyrl|татарлар}}}} = татарлар will display without italics (... although this doesn't work with {{lang-tt| ). Furius (talk) 21:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Interesting workaround – but maybe there is still a way to make it easier and more efficient? To editors Super Ψ Dro, Terasail and Furius: reopened this request since addition of the |italics= parameter seems to have made no difference. It looks as if the italics, right or wrong, are governed by the main {{Lang}} template, which invokes its module. Think it's time to ask editor Trappist the monk for help with this. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 21:18, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

The automatic italics are applied to three of the four examples at User:Paine Ellsworth/Sandbox1 by the archaic {{Language with name}} template where the call to {{lang}} looks like this:

{{Lang|{{{1}}}|{{{3}}}|rtl={{{rtl|}}}|nocat={{{nocat|}}}|italic={{{italic|yes}}} }}

The fourth example, where both Cyrillic and Latin script texts are provided, causes {{lang-tt}} to render correctly.

The fix, it seems to me, is to rewrite the template so that it uses {{lang}} exclusively because these (taken from the first line of İske imlâ alphabet) render correctly (even without the script tags):

{{lang|tt-Cyrl|Иске имля}} → Иске имля

{{lang|tt-Latn|İske imlâ}} → İske imlâ

{{lang|tt-Arab|ايسكي املا}} → ايسكي املا

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

To editors Trappist the monk, Super Ψ Dro, Terasail and Furius: think I understand what Trappist the monk suggests above, so the code placed in

• Template:Lang-tt/sandbox
• and tested in my [sandbox]

seems to work as it should. You might want to make further tests in some articles in preview (i.e. the edits should not be saved) or on my or another sandbox page. Let me know when you think the template sandbox is ready to go live. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 10:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Umm, no.

In the sandbox you have this:

{{Lang|tt|[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: {{{1}}}}}

Repacing {{{1}}} with Татарстан Республикасы:

{{Lang|tt|[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: Татарстан Республикасы}}

you get:

Tatar: Татарстан Республикасы

but, that is incorrect because that marks up the English wikilink as Tatar:

[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: <span lang="tt">Татарстан Республикасы</span>

Perhaps this instead:

{{lang|fn=lang_xx_inherit|code=tt|Татарстан Республикасы}}

Tatar: Татарстан Республикасы

[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: <span lang="tt">Татарстан Республикасы</span>

or, move the wikilink out of {{lang}} as is done elsewhere in {{lang-tt}}:

[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: {{Lang|tt|{{{1}}}}}

[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: {{Lang|tt|Татарстан Республикасы}}

Tatar: Татарстан Республикасы

[[Tatar language|Tatar]]: <span title="Tatar-language text"><span lang="tt">Татарстан Республикасы</span></span>

I prefer the first of these options because it renders the same as other {{lang-??}} templates.

In your sandbox, tests 1, 3, and 4 are the same so 3 and 4 are redundant.

As an aside, I have to wonder if this template couldn't or shouldn't be split into three separate templates: {{lang-tt-Cyrl}}, {{lang-tt-Latn}}, and {{lang-tt-Arab}} (retaining the fourth, generic: {{lang-tt}}). As it is currently written, this template sort of states the obvious when rendering Cyrillic and Latin text; the Arabic is the only odd one and that (if it is deemed necessary – I'm not sure that it is...) can be handled by presetting |label=Tatar in {{lang-tt-Arab}}:

{{lang|fn=lang_xx_inherit|code=tt-Arab|ايسكي املا|label=[[İske imlâ alphabet|Tatar]]}}

Tatar: ايسكي املا

I think that making separate templates might prevent misuse like these:

{{lang-tt|Бөек Ватан сугышы|translit=Böyek Watan suğışı}} – from Great Patriotic War

Tatar: Бөек Ватан сугышы, romanized: Böyek Watan suğışı

{{lang-tt|{{lang|tt-Cyrl|татарлар}}, {{lang|tt-Latn|tatarlar}}, {{lang|tt-Arab|تاتارلر|italic=no}}}} – from Tatars

Tatar: татарлар, tatarlar, تاتارلر

I was wondering how difficult it might be to write an awb script to 'fix' {{lang-tt}} if a decision was taken to create separate templates. The above are from the first page of this search

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

As you've probably surmised I am no expert in these templates even though I've worked with them for years. I've placed {{lang|fn=lang_xx_inherit|code=tt|{{{1}}}}} in the template sandbox, which seems to yield the correct result in my [sandbox]. The reason there is redundancy is that I used the templates from an editor's link above, Tatarstan, in order to test all the templates they were trying to get to work. As for splitting off into three templates, I honestly don't know enough to say one way or another and will go with whatever you say. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 18:36, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you both for your efforts here. I have to admit that aspects of this go over my head. Would splitting into three templates require someone to manually go through all existing instances of the template and reassign them to the appropriate new template? There are about 600 instances, so that isn't an impossible task, if necessary. Furius (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Given that there are relatively few uses of {{lang-tt}} and that the rendering that we get from that template is redundant (labeling Cyrillic text as Cyrillic; labeling Latin text as Latin) I think that separate templates are proper. I think that automated conversion of existing templates is relatively easy. Here are some searches:

• ~430 articles use {{lang-tt}} with a single parameter
  • so long as the text in {{{1}}} is all Cyrillic (with or without punctuation characters) these are easily converted to {{lang-tt-Cyrl}}
• ~70 articles use {{lang-tt}} with a single parameter that contains at least one Latin character (the first parameter is supposed to hold only Cyrillic text)
  • these are more difficult to convert because many have a mix of Cyrillic and Latin text. For those that are have only Latin text, the conversion to {{lang-tt-Latn}} is straight forward; splitting mixed Cyrillic and Latin takes a bit more effort to create {{lang-tt-Cyrl|<Cyrillic>|translit=<Latin>}}
• ~280 articles use {{lang-tt}} with a two parameters
  • a simpler version of the above creates {{lang-tt-Cyrl|<Cyrillic>|translit=<Latin>}}
• ~30 articles use {{lang-tt}} with a three parameters
  • A variant of the two-parameter templates, the automated result will likely be {{lang-tt-Cyrl|<Cyrillic>|translit=<Latin>}} {{lang|tt-Arab|<Arabic>}}. I don't think that the Arabic-script text should be labeled as İske imlâ alphabet text as {{lang-tt}} currently does because that assumes that all Arabic Tatar text used that alphabet. But, according to our article about the alphabet, İske imlâ was in use only during 1870–1920 and was succeeded by Yaña imlâ so labeling all Tatar written with an Arabic script does not seem to me to be the correct thing to do.

So, I will create {{Lang-tt-Cyrl}}, {{Lang-tt-Latn}}, and {{Lang-tt-Arab}} and then work on an awb script to convert {{lang-tt}} to the appropriate new templates.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:17, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

And done. {{lang-tt}} now the generic Module:Lang-based form.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you beyond words for all that! Should the new templates have the template protection that lang-tt has? P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 20:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps, but isn't there a bot that flits about applying protection to templates according to whatever the consensus is?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:09, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Not a clue, but it sounds like a good idea. Guess we'll see. Thanks again! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 01:34, 18 September 2022 (UTC)