Template:Did you know nominations/Ziad al-Hariri
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
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Ziad al-Hariri[edit]
- ... that Ziad al-Hariri (pictured), Syrian commander of the Israeli front, led a brigade in the occupation of Damascus during the coup d'état of 1963?
- ALT1... that Ziad al-Hariri (pictured) was the chief leader of the 1963 Syrian coup d'état, commanding the brigade stationed on the frontline with Israel to occupy Damascus?
Created by Al Ameer son (talk). Self nominated at 06:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC).
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- Ok, I added the extra citations for the hook. --Al Ameer 16:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. There are two refs to "Seale" with no corresponding source in the bibliography. Also, is it possible to link to an online source for verification? (I will AGF, but an online source is preferable.) czar · · 17:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, just added the book to the Biblio, including the link to view the source on google books. --Al Ameer 18:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. There are two refs to "Seale" with no corresponding source in the bibliography. Also, is it possible to link to an online source for verification? (I will AGF, but an online source is preferable.) czar · · 17:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Check "During unity" and the next sentence—doesn't make sense. Looking at the Seale source (thanks for the link), it looks like Hariri was a colonel at the time where the article says he was a brigadier general (src p. 74), and p. 76 says he led a brigade, which is short of "the forces" (the hook implies in totality). Am I reading it incorrectly? Does the Moubayed src jive (and is the excerpt available online)? czar · · 05:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- This one's a doozie.
- 1. I clarified that sentence you were talking about.
- 2.The sources on the rank of al-Hariri have turned out to be confusing and I've done some more research on it. Apparently he was a colonel prior to the coup and was promoted to Major-General afterward. This is what the Mideast Mirror says on Page 3[1] (3. Staff Colonel Mohammed Ziad al-Hariri is promoted to the rank of Major-General and appointed Chief of Staff) and author George Meri Haddad says on Page 299 [2] (... Similarly, Colonel Ziad Hariri who led the coup, was made chief-of-staff and promoted to Major General). Those sources are not used in the article currently, but I will add them. These sources all refer to Hariri as Major General [3][4][5], while Seale and Rabinovich mention him as Colonel (p. 45 and p. 74, respectively) and later mention him as General (p. 52 and p. 84, respectively). Malik Mufti refers to him only as General. The consensus from the sources I'm getting is that his last rank was "Major General," while "Brigadier anything" seems false, and I will correct that to Colonel after I sort out the citations. Don't know where my head was when I made the changes.
- 3. As far as the hook is concerned, I just want it to make clear that Hariri was the guy who led the capture of Damascus. Most sources (not just Seale) describe him as the chief leader of the coup. "Brigade" or "forces" would work. Moubayed (I just added the link to the Biblio) uses "serving as commander of the forces on Syria's front line" and "who had occupied Damascus in the coup." If "brigade" would be the safer term as far as accuracy is concerned, then we could use that instead. --Al Ameer 06:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Good, sane work. I edited the hook, if you can take a look. I'm fine with it saying he led the occupation if the sources can back it up. If this were true, I imagine it would be a big deal and the sources would say so. If the hook is good, the article needs to update to match it (while minding the sources). Also you may want to consider contacting the Syrian History website on the image's origins, as the site doesn't say the photo is from 1963, which muddies the PD attribution. czar · · 07:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- I prefer we mention that he led the coup. I updated the article and offered an alternative hook (ALT1). The sources I used that call him the coup leader plain and simple are Rabinovich Page 235 (al-Hariri, Ziyad: The real maker of the coup d'etat of March 8, 1963), Seale Page 79 (... was the principal coup maker Ziad al-Hariri) and Haddad Page 396 (The leader of the coup of March 8, 1963, Colonel Ziad al-Hariri). Those are ones I've used, but there are more. --Al Ameer 16:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- As for the picture, I misread the title as saying the picture was taken between May and June 1963. I'm confident that the image still qualifies for PD Syria since it had to date from 1963 or prior. I'll contact the website administrator to get a clarification, but I doubt I'll get a positive response. I got more than hunch they don't want us to use their pictures, even though we're legally allowed to. I don't want the image to hold up the nomination though, so we don't have to use it if it's a problem. --Al Ameer 17:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- It's a big claim, but I think you did good work with the sourcing and I'm prepared to accept it based on what I've confirmed and AGF on the rest. I'm going to agree that the image is likely pre-1994 (PD) based on his youthfulness, but it's more of an argument from intuition than fact. See if you can verify its origins, otherwise it technically shouldn't go up (though I wouldn't fight if you felt strongly). Both hooks are cleared. czar · · 21:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm going to add another source about Hariri's leadership shortly. The basic reason Hariri's role isn't widely discussed (although the major secondary sources acknowledge it) is because the Ba'athist Military Committee, which was the only tightly organized group in the insurrection's Arabist coalition, came out on top shortly after the coup's success. The unorganized Nasserists and independents (Hariri) were played off each other and both were purged within a matter of a few months. Naturally, as in any totalitarian dictatorship, their roles were largely overshadowed by the successive Ba'athist factions who continue to control the country today. As for the image, I'm almost positive it's no later than 1963 judging by the military uniform (he retired from service completely after 1963), and it could be compared to the photos of Hariri when he went to Cairo for the new round of unity talks following the coup[6][7]. I think the picture would be very useful. It would be ideal if the DYK admins could have the final say on it, but if that's not possible go ahead and pass the nomination without the picture. --Al Ameer 00:15, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
- It's a big claim, but I think you did good work with the sourcing and I'm prepared to accept it based on what I've confirmed and AGF on the rest. I'm going to agree that the image is likely pre-1994 (PD) based on his youthfulness, but it's more of an argument from intuition than fact. See if you can verify its origins, otherwise it technically shouldn't go up (though I wouldn't fight if you felt strongly). Both hooks are cleared. czar · · 21:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Good, sane work. I edited the hook, if you can take a look. I'm fine with it saying he led the occupation if the sources can back it up. If this were true, I imagine it would be a big deal and the sources would say so. If the hook is good, the article needs to update to match it (while minding the sources). Also you may want to consider contacting the Syrian History website on the image's origins, as the site doesn't say the photo is from 1963, which muddies the PD attribution. czar · · 07:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
