Template:Did you know nominations/Julián Ladera

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 ^talk 15:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Julián Ladera[edit]

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... that Julián Ladera spent 16 years in the Venezuelan Professional Baseball League?

Comment: Not a self nomination

Created by MusiCitizen (talk). Nominated by Matty.007 (talk) at 18:58, 19 December 2013 (UTC).

There are substantial problems with citations here. First, source #2 is used to support things that it doesn't say: for example, it has him being born in Carmen de Uria, not Vargas, and it gives a record of 29-35 for the years in the North American minors, not 17-23. Moreover, the use of multiple citations for the same statement is common throughout: this makes it far harder to verify what's from what source, especially when one of the two is online and the other isn't. Nyttend (talk) 15:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Carmen de Uria is in the county (is that what they're called?) of Vargas, clarified. I'm no baseball expert, but I think that they are different stats, as it is completely different, but I will ask MusiCitizen. What do you want done (if anything) about the referencing? Mat ty.007 16:00, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Since Carmen de Uria is within Vargas, that's fine as long as your clarification (or something like it) remains in the article. The referencing really should be separated so that each statement depends on a single source, both because it makes cite-checking easier and because it makes synthesis much harder; multi-sourcing is fine in academic and professional writing because there's no prohibition of original research/original synthesis in such contexts, unlike here. Nyttend (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, since I can't see the offline refs, I am asking MusiCitizen, so please bear with me. Best, Mat ty.007 16:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Sure; I wasn't expecting you to do anything at all, since you're only the nominator and not the creator. Nyttend (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Normally I would be able to fix issues that aren't massive, but not with offline sources. Mat ty.007 16:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Dear Matty and Nyttend: Thanks for your interest (and patience) in this matter (substantial problems). I omitted Carmen de Uria as the birthplace for Ladera, therefore you have reasonable doubt. So no problem, I can add Carmen de Uria to the article for editorial reasons. Relevance? Please let me explain something. First at all, Carmen de Uria is a ghost village of the State of Vargas, Venezuela (See: Vargas tragedy and ). Second, Ladera grew up and was raised in Catia La Mar, one of the most important cities located in Vargas state. In fact, since an early age he was dubbed El moreno de Catia La Mar. An additional detail: In Spanish, moreno is a term that refers to any dark-skinned, swarthy, non-white, or not Caucasian people. Feel free to make an adequate translation for your reading pleasure. So no problem, as I said before, I can add Carmen de Uria to the article for editorial reasons. Second, the Baseball Reference source is incomplete and can be eliminated, if this is the case. Arguably, free will, by whatever criteria, North American minors is a misnomer, because BR Minors includes partial well-intentioned information from Asian, Mexican, and Italian minor league circuits. At this point, some Wiki users have required me complementary BR online info. Who's on First? Right now, the only authorized information about global baseball is registered in books and very well organised archives, many of them written in other languages than English. I think that someday all this information will be verified, enlarged and translated into English, without a doubt, the universal language. Well..., but what can or should I do in this current situation? Should we eliminate all BR minors info? Should use only literary references or delete it? Should use only BR minors incomplete info? What do you think? In any case, it's clear that the people of BR keep their mind open, flexible, capable of adaptations and developments, and include almost daily information from reliable sources and anonymous collaborators. I have been a Wikipedian since 2004. Wikipedia is a vital and valuable source of online data, and I have used it in the past 10 years with many other sources, cross referencing to check the data. I know being an open source, Wikipedia is subject to being a victim of some immature people who enjoy playing pranks. It has shown there is a policing system that monitors the site. Nevertheless, the real problem is lazy people who don't cross reference their information from different sources (including books, of course). Since then, I've also collaborated with BR and some specialized pages in baseball in many ways, specially, to correct issues such as mispelling of Spanish terms or missing order details. Besides, I have encouraged them to use the letter "ñ" [enye] and accents in the names of some players, as well as their correct pronunciation both in Spanish, Italian and Portuguese languages (please see BR for Magglio Ordóñez entry, for example). More importantly, several places of births for Hispanic baseball players are incorrect in several baseball sites and are not reliable, specially, for those players born in the first decades of the twentieth century. I am fortunate to have had a shared sense of purpose with BR and with any baseball people. In reference to my article, I await your decision and instructions to follow. I will gladly welcome you back and collaborate with you, and as long as you act accordingly. Sincerely, MusiCitizen (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2014 (UTC).

First off, thank you for the Vargas tragedy article; I've never heard of it before, and now I understand much better why you wrote what you did. Secondly, I've seen plenty of people use Baseball Reference, but I've always wished that there were a different source that looked more reliable. You speak of books: do you have one or more good-quality books with this kind of information? If so, please throw out Baseball Reference and cite them instead — after all, you've got to get your data past a publisher to get it printed, unlike on the Baseball Reference website, and the book isn't going to be subject to linkrot. No wonder your data are different from Baseball Reference, if certain books are better and more authoritative than it. Thanks for your long response, and please accept my apology for the comments that arose because I wasn't understanding what was happening. Nyttend (talk) 01:32, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

No apologies, please. On the contrary, your observation motivated me to add some topics to the article. Remember: Baseball Reference and all web resources can be updated in any moment. The books do not, but are an absolutely irreplaceable and valuable ally. Wikipedia works to unite both worlds. See the result: Thanks. MusiCitizen (talk) 18:05, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing this MusiCitizen, and sorry I couldn't have been of more help. Best, Mat ty.007 18:08, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I still have to ask a little about the statistics from BaseballReference — the numbers in the table still don't appear to reflect the data on the page; for example, his record for 1952-1953/1955-1956 appears on the website to have been 29-35, not 17-23, and it looks like he had four complete games instead of "no data". If some of the seasons (or some parts of the seasons) aren't counted toward that, could you add a footnote to the table explaining the situation? Nyttend (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Dear Nyttend: No problem. According to your concern I decided to put the BR Minors information in the article, although strictly for United States Minor Leagues : A / B / AAA (21-24 / 1-5 / 7-6 = 29-35). Doing this, we will be living according to Wikipedia plan for us. Please note that in the BR entry for Julián Ladera there is limited information on his career in the Class AA Mexican League, so it is preferable to show some official statistics of the ML that BR minors still unknown. I will try to communicate with BR to discuss this matter. For now, I invite you and Matty to review the corrected table on the article and observe the warning: Some statistics are incomplete because there are no records available at the time of the request. I think that's enough. According to your own words, you've seen plenty of people use Baseball Reference, but you've always wished that there were a different source that looked more reliable (me too). Be patient, we are just starting. As always, thank you for your deep interest in trying to dispel any suspicion of doubt. MusiCitizen (talk) 14:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

That looks great, but it means that an Alt needs proposing: Alt 1: ... that Julián Ladera was born in a ghost village? Mat ty.007 18:57, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

This may suit your needs, I do not know. I hope you have a good time on the site and can find what you are looking for. MusiCitizen (talk) 14:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

That's sufficient (thanks for the extensive explanations), and we can go with ALT1. Thanks so much for your work here! Nyttend (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2014 (UTC)