Talk:Women rabbis and Torah scholars/Archive 1

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Archive 1

February 2022

Hello - I appreciate your input but when all the major orthodox organizations say in unison that women can not be rabbbis then publishing something else is publishing a lie.

I thought it was against the rules to be a single issue editor?

Please don't republish inaccurate information.

Rav Espstien — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.86.127 (talk) 22:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

You should both be working on consensus. How is this going to come about? Nick Levine (talk) 23:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

There are two issues here to address:

1) the edits on this page and other related pages by User:68.194.86.127 (and what is clearly the same user using another IP, User:69.123.254.39)

2) the merits of the argument that there is no legitimacy to the rabbinic ordination of women in Orthodox Judaism.

Per item 1, the user's edits consist of vandalism by rewriting sections with WP:RS to make statements of personal attacks or unsourced ideological claims. Based on the all of the actions of this user on WP, I conclude that they are intentionally and repeatedly violating WP policy and editing standards.

Per item 2, this argument is addressed in a prior discussion section. Previously, it appears that the editors of this page provided excessive detail of Orthodox opposition to the ordination of women, ignoring or minimising any support within Orthodox Judaism for this change. In the current page, the essential argument of these editors that the major Orthodox rabbinical associations rejected the ordination of women is preserved and prominently displayed in several places on the page. What this current version offers is a view of the subject matter itself. For this reason, Orthodox support AND oppostion matter less than the material on the phenomenon itself as this page is NOT titled "Orthodox positions on the ordination of women". If this latter topic (namely, the debate within Orthodox Judaism) is noteworthy enough to merit its own article, I would still caution that a NPOV be taken which appears to offend editors like User:68.194.86.127.

Going forward, I will be requesting page protection for this page to discourage further vandalism. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Further to this discussion, it should noted that the claim "all the major orthodox organizations say in unison that women can not be rabbbis" is refuted by the sources which provide a variety of Orthodox voices (per the article). Some Orthodox organizational voices are that "women cannot become rabbis". Others avoid the question and merely make a policy that they will not allow member organizations to hire women rabbis (an important distinction). Others avoid the use of the rabbinic title, but do offer a substitute to ordination. And others support ordination. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 00:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Your not telling the truth.

No - it is not refuted. It is well documented that no mainstream orthodox organizations accept women Rabbis. It is a FACT. In fact the both Agudah and RSA have said that the claim that Orthodox Judaism allows for Rabbis is just a break away theology no different than previous ones, like Christianity. That is what is wrong with Wikipedia. Truth is taken over by fanatics with agendas. Furthermore, the OpenOrthodox movement has been condemned by every Orthodox organization in the US. This user qwerty, is a single issue user and needs to be sacked as an editor

https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/rca-bans-female-rabbis-again-agudath-goes-further/ RCA Bans Female Rabbis, Again; Agudath Goes Further Moves come in wake of developments in Israel.

https://hakirah.org/vol%2011%20rca%20agudah.pdf https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/yeshivish-women-clergy-the-secular-state-and-changing-roles-for-women-in-ultra-orthodoxy/ https://forward.com/opinion/385146/the-ou-is-right-orthodox-women-shouldnt-be-rabbis/

The OU, Adugah, RCA, Yeshiva Gedolah, etc etc straight do the lie. Saying that it is accepted within Orthodoxy is a blatant lie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.254.39 (talk) 17:51, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@69.123.254.39 - Per Wikipedia's Five Pillars, if you want to engage and to contribute to this encyclopedia website, you will need to adhere to some essential guidelines. Your assertions regarding this issue reflect a soapbox-style of preaching (to say the least). And your personal attacks are obviously not acceptable conduct on this site. You should desist from this type of behavior going forward. And if you want to engage productively on this site, you are welcome to do so provided that you adhere to Wikipedia policy. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 10:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

As for the merits of the argument, I will not re-litigate this again for all editors on this page as I will presume that most editors can read the article and view the quality of sources used on the page. However, I will remind all editors that since WP is an encyclopedia, scholarly sources are highly valued as WP:RS. Opinion articles and old sensationalists news headlines must be treated as less than ideal sources (and this seems to be the favorite type of source for fundamentalist religious editors on this site). For an example of how scholars approach the complexity of the modern Orthodox position, see Female Clergy in Male Space: The Sacralization of the Orthodox Rabbinate by Adam Ferziger (you may find the full text via Google scholar or you may gain access via the Wikipedia Library if your account meets the criteria). In this article, Ferziger distinguishes the exact grounds for the Orthodox Union's 2017 opposition to "women rabbis", which in that case was not opposition to Orthodox women functioning as Torah scholars but only if they were functioning clergy members in Orthodox synagogues in specific ways. Additionally, the opposition was deliberately not based on Jewish law (that is, clear legalism) but on a vague notion of "tradition" (i.e. rabbinic convention). This added complexity to the debate is important to incorporate on WP in order to make certain that WP offers nuance and context for topics on the site. This is just one example of how the inclusion of scholarly sources enables editors to do a better job at refining Wikipedia articles. A review of the major changes on this page will reflect that there is now many more uses of scholarly sources in place of the sensationalist news items or opinion pieces placed on this page by past editors. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 11:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

qwerty seems to have a problem reading plain language. All three major Orthodox institutions (as was notated here) oppose Women rabbis and ostracized any rabbi to challenge this Halachah. She also does other things that are not fully honest, like saying that Charadi and Orthodox are somehow different. They are not different. They all follow under the same umbrella.

https://forward.com/life/127571/rca-no-women-rabbis-no-matter-what-theyre-called/

there is no mainstream orthodox group that doesn't strongly oppose Wommen Rabbis. NONE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:6301:6800:5C35:BBAD:8EF1:A6FA (talk) 17:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

You can protest that women rabbis are accepted by Orthodox Rabbis from here to when Meshiach comes, but it will change nothing. Orthodox torah Observant Jews will never ever accept women Rabbi's. That is a different church

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/rabbinical-council-of-america-bans-female-rabbis-1.5416278

RSA Due to our aforesaid commitment to sacred continuity, however, we cannot accept either the ordination of women or the recognition of women as members of the Orthodox rabbinate, regardless of the title. Finally, even if the absence of women rabbis throughout Jewish history is not fully dispositive, this phenomenon does establish a baseline status quo. We feel that the absence of institutionalized women’s rabbinic leadership has been both deliberate and meaningful, and should continue to be preserved.

OU https://www.ou.org/assets/Responses-of-Rabbinic-Panel.pdf

Finally, even if the absence of women rabbis throughout Jewish history is not fully dispositive, this phenomenon does establish a baseline status quo. We feel that the absence of institutionalized women’s rabbinic leadership has been both deliberate and meaningful, and should continue to be preserved. Our group believes that the combination of these two considerations, precedent and halakhic concerns, precludes female clergy. Given the status quo that we feel is meaningful and intentional, the burden of halakhic proof rests on the side of changing the established practice. The Halakhic Ethos of Gender Roles The Torah affirms the absolute equal value of men and women as individuals and as ovdei Hashem, but clearly and consistently speaks of role differentiation. Kedushat Yisrael applies identically to both women and men; indeed, it is actually passed on to future generations specifically through Jewish women. Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch writes, “The concept of man created in the image of G-d embraces both sexes; together, male and female comprise the term ‘human.’ G-d has created them both equally close to Him and for the same active purpose according to His Will: “zachar u’nekeivah bara otam.”25 Similarly, expectation of, and capacity for, personal spiritual achievement does not differ between the genders, 26 and the vast majority of halakhic obligations apply equally to women and men.27

Agudah https://shalhevetboilingpoint.com/torah/2015/02/10/female-ordination-a-ruse-says-spokesman-for-agudath-israel/

Rabbi Shafran: It most certainly does, but that divisiveness was and is caused by the movement that insists on calling itself Orthodox when, by any rational measure, it is not. There are times when a principle – whether it be free speech or assembly, or consumer protection, or (as here) truth in labeling – has to be defended. And that may cause divisiveness. But the fault lies with those who try to bend the principles beyond their breaking points.

https://hakirah.org/vol%2011%20rca%20agudah.pdf To place the following two articles, regarding the ordination of women as rabbis, in perspective we present, in chronological order, the following statements issued by Agudath Israel and The Rabbinical Council of America. Ed. Statement of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of America (10 Adar 5770) [February 25, 2010]1 Rabbi Avi Weiss has conferred “semikha” upon a woman, has made her an Assistant Rabbi at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale where she carries out certain traditional rabbinical functions, and has now given her the title of “Rabbah” (formerly “Maharat”). He has stated that the change in title is designed to “make it clear that Sara Hurwitz is a full member of our rabbinic staff, a rabbi with the additional quality of a distinct woman’s voice.” These developments represent a radical and dangerous departure from Jewish tradition and the mesoras haTorah, and must be condemned in the strongest terms. Any congregation with a woman in a rabbinical position of any sort cannot be considered Orthodox. Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of America Rabbi Simcha Bunim Ehrenfeld Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky Rabbi Yitzchok Feigelstock Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler Rabbi Dovid Feinstein Rabbi Avrohom Chaim Levin Rabbi Aharon Feldman Rabbi Yaakov Perlow Rabbi Yosef Harari-Raful Rabbi Aaron Schechter

Decisions in Orthodox Judiasm is made by gedolim, not trolls on the internet who stomp about insisting the world is flat, when it is round.

There is NO accepted mainstream Orthodox organization, not Chassidic, Not Modern Orthodox, not Sephardi, not Litvak, regardless what they call themselves, that accept women as rabbis and they uniformly rebute it and they chastize anyone who makes such false claims. There is no exception to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:6301:6800:5C35:BBAD:8EF1:A6FA (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Reb Moshe Fienstein https://tzitzit.tallit-shop.com/rabbi-moshe-feinstein-women-tallit

Rav Moshe Feinstein On Women And Tallits 11th Jan 2014

Though the issue of women wearing a tallit has evolved over time, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein’s remarks on the topic reverberate to this day. In the 1970's feminist Orthodox Jewish women consulted with him to inquire whether a woman can wear a tallit. The following is an excerpt from his responsum to them, dated 19 Elul 5736 (1976).

"First, it must be clear that one of the fundamentals of our pure faith is that the entire Torah, both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah, were given by HaKadosh Baruch Hu Himself on Mt. Sinai through Moshe Rabbenu a”h and not even the slightest change can be introduced, whether the intention is to be more lenient or more stringent. However, we were commanded that when a need arises to establish limitations and boundaries, the Sanhedrin and the leading Torah scholars had an obligation to establish regulations, creating certain prohibitions and requirements, while clearly stating it is a Rabbinical regulation or limitation…

"That the Torah exempted [women] from positive, time-bound mitzvahs is itself a Torah law, and the Sages did not add on a requirement because they saw no need to obligate women. In fact, it seems there is a need to exempt them for the very reasons the Torah exempted them.

"In addition to the Torah’s reasons – which are not known to the average person and not even to the greatest Torah scholars, and we have an obligation to believe that HaKadosh Baruch Hu, the Giver of the Torah, has profound reasons – there are also openly revealed reasons. For instance, most women are not wealthy and therefore the task of raising boys and girls – which is the most important type of work to Hashem Yisbarach and to the Torah – is incumbent on them. Furthermore, Hashem Yisbarach created all species such that the females raise the offspring. Humans are no exception, for women are more capable of raising children, and as such He lightened their load, not obligating them in Torah study and positive, time-bound mitzvahs.

"Therefore, even if the human condition evolves – even for all women, and for wealthy women in times past and present – and the task of childrearing can be passed onto others, as we see in the U.S., Torah law does not change, not even Rabbinical law. It does not matter that a battle is being waged, for there is no power to make any changes – even were there to be a worldwide consensus. Those women who insist on trying to wage a campaign to introduce change are considered deniers of Torah (Rambam, Hil. Teshuva, Chap. 3, Hal. 8). According to the Rambam there are three types of deniers of Torah: one who says that Moshe introduced even a single letter on his own, one who denies the interpretation, which is the Oral Law, and one who says a certain [mitzvah] has now changed. Each of these three denies the Torah and they have no portion in the World to Come…Although the Rambam writes that [the third type] refers to one who said the Creator changed a certain mitzvah, he stated it in a more inclusive manner, i.e. even one who says the Creator changed a given mitzvah, for this applies even more in the case of one who says people have the authority to make a change, for in making such a statement one in effect says the Torah is not forever, which rejects various verses that show that the Torah is forever, as the Kesef Mishneh writes.

"Every woman is indeed allowed to fulfill even those mitzvahs which the Torah does not command them to do, and they earn reward for performing these mitzvahs; in fact, according to the Tosefos, they can even recite a blessing over the mitzvah, and [the Ashkenazi] custom is for them to perform the mitzvah of shofar and lulav [i.e. the Four Species], and they recite a blessing on them.

"Therefore on the mitzvah of tzitzit is would also seem to apply if a woman wants to wear a four-cornered garment – though it should differ from typical men’s clothing – and tie tzitzit to it and carry out this mitzvah. Only in the case of tefillin did the Tosefos write (Eruvin 96a) that they should be prevented from doing so…But this is clearly if she has a heartfelt urge to keep mitzvahs, even when not commanded. However, since [in the present case] this is not the intention, but rather resentment toward Hashem Yisbarach and His Torah, this is not an act of performing a mitzvah at all, but the very opposite: a prohibited act, the prohibition of heresy, for she thinks Torah laws can be replaced."

Before concluding, Rav Moshe notes that none of this implies that women are on a lower level of santity than men. He explains that all the places in the Torah where the Jews are exhorted to be holy are addressed to both men and women alike. Therefore, he writes, women recite blassings that contain the words, “Who sanctified us and commanded us,” even regarding mitzvahs from which they are exempt, "for this exemption is merely a leniency granted to them, as noted above, not an indication of any sort of inferiority, G-d forbid.”

Finally, Rav Moshe points out that a husband’s obligation to honor his wife is identical to a wife’s obligation to honor her husband. In closing, he writes that these obstinate women should not be countenanced “and the holy Jewish custom should not be altered in any manner.”

- Excerpted from Iggros Moshe, O.C. 4, 49

moshe feinstein # tallit # woman # women # — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:6301:6800:5C35:BBAD:8EF1:A6FA (talk) 19:02, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:SOAP, I will be closing this discussion as this user appears to be engaging in bad faith edits and distruptions on WP. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 06:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)