Talk:Women in the Israel–Hamas war

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POV[edit]

Never have I ever seen such a one-sided POV disaster, without even a shred of effort made to balance the obvious two sides in a conflict. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Every article referred to the Israeli side in this terrible war in which Hamas murdered about 1400 Israelis and kidnapped about 250 Israelis to Gaza, including babies and small children and women over 80. You have a contrary opinion. Hanay (talk) 17:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your inability to find news on Palestinian women doesn't mean that there isn't any coverage of them, or that they don't have a role in this article. Salmoonlight (talk) 19:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323 I did as much as I could to find information and reliable sources on both sides in the conflict. I would much appreciate if you could help me with this.Eladkarmel (talk) 18:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can say POV POV without any specific reference? Please consider withdrawing this. TaBaZzz (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here are a few more sources that can be used to improve this page:
Marokwitz (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, we can have this article, but its also going to cover Palestinian women, and issues being denied water and healthcare, issues with prenatal care and feminine hygiene, PTSD and mental health challenges from their children being maimed and killed. Among the sources we can use are [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. This article as it stands is an absurdly POV article, even calling it "The Home Front". This is not the Israeli Wikipedia. And this article will cover the topic of its title, not a propaganda piece pretending to do so. nableezy - 21:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The Home Front" currently starts with women of Gaza. Only the 2nd part deal with the Israeli side. TaBaZzz (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah and it pretends like the issues women in Gaza face are caused by Hamas lol. nableezy - 21:31, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. WP:NOTAFORUM. TaBaZzz (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Im sorry what? What foruming? Im bringing sources showing that the astoundingly poor conditions women in Gaza are living under are the result of Israeli actions. That isnt foruming, that is showing the propaganda piece that is this article is wildly non-NPOV. Ill be working on this article quite a bit I guess, and it isnt going to look like how it started. nableezy - 22:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think instead of getting upset, the right way is to actually help and improve the article. The issue of women in war (in any war) is a very important issue. The Palestinian women don't get enough space in the article in your opinion? Come on let's expand it.Eladkarmel (talk) 05:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am. nableezy - 15:30, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Take it to AfD[edit]

if that procedure hasn't yet been applied. This article is a farce from top to bottom, and any utility retrievable from it seems improbable. Some Israeli women were apparently raped: that is showcased. The evidence is messy. These rapes are put on a par with the slaughter of some 3,000 women and no doubt thousands o f their children (many girls) by indiscriminate bombing of civilians. Given the fact that several major propaganda images: the roasting of children, the beheadings of children turned out to be astute manipulations, all issuing from Israeli official sources, we should not deal with this until something less newspapery comes out. The editor appears to think wikipedia is a forum for extending these infowars to affect public opinion into its mainspace. Nishidani (talk) 22:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the topic is notable, the only thing to argue about at AFD is WP:TNT, but I think this can be corrected. Just takes a from the bottom up rewriting. Might be worth moving to Draft space though. nableezy - 23:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It will be notable when, rather than citing rubbish from the IDF of numerous Israeli Hebrew sources wedded to the war, independent secondary sources in English deal with the topic. Take just one thing I noted, the 14 women soldiers 'murdered' when 'in battle'. That clumsiness, if your enemy kills you in battle, at least in Engtlish, you cannot say they were murdered. But secondly, they are called 'field observers'. Perhaps we need an article on that. These field observers are female soldiers who monitor the electronic surveillance cameras, which sit next to an automatic firing system. They have the authority to press a button that activates an armament which shoots dead anyone within 500 metres of the fence, and have picked off many Palestinians even before the war this way. No indication in the text which just recapitulates what the crap sources assert. The israeli wiki is fairly notorious, and we should not be shovelling in its rubbish (any more than would translate something of the sort from a Palestinian wiki) into the English wiki where many eyes, of a great many different backgrounds, can check every source. One Haaretz article on this gives a different angle on some of those deaths from that POV pressed on the page by the main editor. Nishidani (talk) 23:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nishidani I didn't write a perfect article, and that's the advantage of Wikipedia, that we as a community can create something better together than a single editor's work. Saying "crap sources" or attacking me personally is unnecessary.
The issue of women in war in general and in the wars of the current era is a very, very important issue. Let's make a reliable article together that will present the place of women in this sad war. Eladkarmel (talk) 05:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Parham wiki (talk) 16:28, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If this article is to survive it does present a very lopsided view. Currently the fate of 3 Israeli women is given multiple times more weight than the fate of 11,000 Palestinian women and children.
It's also not clear what women serving in the IDF have to do with women killed by either Hamas or Israel?
@Eladkarmel are there any sources that treat this as a unified topic? Otherwise stitching together such unrelated items could constitute SYNTH. VR talk 01:31, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on the weight, i left the overall topic half done tbh, will need to continue updating effects on Gazan women. But in the meantime, there is no need to an extended bit about three individual hostages here, that is covered by the line on 100 women being taken hostage. And ive reduced it to that line. nableezy - 01:44, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Eladkarmel, you are welcome to join the discussion, but there isnt consensus for including long sub-sections on three individual women while thousands and thousands of women killed by Israel are given a sentence or two. If those cases are notable they can have articles, and they do have articles, but they do not merit individual coverage in an overarching article on women in the war. nableezy - 15:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for pictures[edit]

Does anyone have a picture of a Palestinian woman to add to lead so we dont have npov? Eladkarmel (talk) 14:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

false edit summary and WP:PRESERVE[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Hey Iskandar323, I saw this edit. And I have a concern that this is an incorrect editorial summary. You wrote that you removed mention of the al-Shifa hospital (which should be left in IMO because it is a notable controversy), but you also removed the US support of the human shield claims. I also' if I understand correctly there is WP:PRESERVE here, Want to explain? Eladkarmel (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your link is not to an edit, and I couldn't find any mention of "al-shifa hospital" in the edit summaries over the past few days.VR talk 18:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I'm editing via phone right now and can't see the edits. I will get to the computer later today and fix the link. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I think I succeeded with the cell phone. This was a mistake and is discussed in the edits in another article. Can you tell me if you can see? (I will move the discussion to the talk page of the correct article).[13]Eladkarmel (talk) 18:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can see an edit now. I'll close this discussion. Don't move this, but start a new discussion at the relevant page.VR talk 18:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disproportionate suffering endured by women and children -- unfactual[edit]

The article as of 7/1/2024 states that

"In the Gaza Strip, thousands of women have been killed in Israeli strikes. Two-thirds of the then 11,000 Palestinian casualties reported by the Gaza Health Ministry in early November were women and children, highlighting the disproportionate suffering endured by these groups."

This is unfactual. More than 50% of the population of the Gaza strip are children, and therefore about 75% are women and children. If two thirds of casualties are women and children, this means that women and children are underrepresented among the casualties. The death toll is horrendous, but wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and should not include false information.

The article is locked and I cannot edit it, but I suggest to simply remove the false clause "highlighting the disproportionate suffering endured by these groups."


Eladve (talk) 12:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UN Report[edit]

Israel/oPt: UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls

19 February 2024

Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women considers report of Kuwait “Commitments for women’s rights: time to turn empty promises into concrete changes for women.” Statement by Mr. Ivan Šimonović, Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights at the special event at the 57th session of the Commission on the Status of Women on “Obligations and Practical Measures to Support Women Human Rights Defenders”, 12 March 2013, UN Headquarters, New York

GENEVA (19 February 2024) – UN experts* today expressed alarm over credible allegations of egregious human rights violations to which Palestinian women and girls continue to be subjected in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Palestinian women and girls have reportedly been arbitrarily executed in Gaza, often together with family members, including their children, according to information received. “We are shocked by reports of the deliberate targeting and extrajudicial killing of Palestinian women and children in places where they sought refuge, or while fleeing. Some of them were reportedly holding white pieces of cloth when they were killed by the Israeli army or affiliated forces,” the experts said.

The experts expressed serious concern about the arbitrary detention of hundreds of Palestinian women and girls, including human rights defenders, journalists and humanitarian workers, in Gaza and the West Bank since 7 October. Many have reportedly been subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, denied menstruation pads, food and medicine, and severely beaten. On at least one occasion, Palestinian women detained in Gaza were allegedly kept in a cage in the rain and cold, without food.

“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online.

The experts expressed concern that an unknown number of Palestinian women and children, including girls, have reportedly gone missing after contact with the Israeli army in Gaza. “There are disturbing reports of at least one female infant forcibly transferred by the Israeli army into Israel, and of children being separated from their parents, whose whereabouts remain unknown,” they said.

“We remind the Government of Israel of its obligation to uphold the right to life, safety, health, and dignity of Palestinian women and girls and to ensure that no one is subjected to violence, torture, ill-treatment or degrading treatment, including sexual violence,” the experts said.

They called for an independent, impartial, prompt, thorough and effective investigation into the allegations and for Israel to cooperate with such investigations.

“Taken together, these alleged acts may constitute grave violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, and amount to serious crimes under international criminal law that could be prosecuted under the Rome Statute,” the experts said. “Those responsible for these apparent crimes must be held accountable and victims and their families are entitled to full redress and justice,” they added.

  • The experts: Reem Alsalem, Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, its causes and consequences; Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967; Dorothy Estrada Tanck (Chair), Claudia Flores, Ivana Krstić, Haina Lu, and Laura Nyirinkindi, Working group on discrimination against women and girls.

The experts are part of what is known as the Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN human rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms. Special Procedures mandate-holders are independent human rights experts appointed by the Human Rights Council to address either specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures experts work on a voluntary basis; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent of any government or organisation and serve in their individual capacity. Azeezm4r (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is not reported in the wikipedia page despite being 3 days old. Interestingly, apart from CNN, The Independent, Voice of America, and BuzzFeed, prominent media outlets like The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The Guardian, The Telegraph, PBS, CBS, CNBC, and BBC also did not publish any news, reports, or journalistic materials discussing the latest United Nations report at the time of this report's writing. Normally, these outlets cover almost everything issued by the United Nations organization. Azeezm4r (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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