Talk:Wilhelma, Palestine

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Abandoned?[edit]

The village was not abandoned during World War II. It was transformed by the British into an internment camp for German settlers in Palestine and served in this capacity until April 1948. And the new Israeli locality built there, was not built there right after the war, but after the camp was dissolved (i.e. after 1948). I have added sourced info about some of this to the article but the text below and above needs to be clarified and sourced. Tiamuttalk 00:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Three new settlements were established on the land of the ex-German colony of Wilhelma, between Lydda and Petah Tikvah, in 1948. The first was abandoned on May 15 (1948) and overrun by the Arab Legion. The second was established by a Hapoel Hamizrahi group which had lived for five years at Nehalim in Upper Galilee. Their former site has now been occupied by a younger group of the Kibbutz Meuhad. The third was established by the Tehiya group of the Hapoel Haizrahi. The settlements are all of the Moshav type."' -- Jewish National Fund. (1949). Jewish villages in Israel. Jerusalem: Jewish National Fund. page 178.


Proposed move[edit]

  • Shouldn't the article be renamed to Wilhelma, Palestinian Mandate or Wilhelma, Israel instead of Wilhelma, Palestine considering that today it is in modern-day Israel? Snakeswithfeet (talk) 05:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The more I mull it over, the more convinced that the name should be changed back to your original Wilhelma, Israel and my reasoning follows. The German Templar village was founded in the modern era, 1902, in the region known as "Filastin" under the control of the Ottoman Empire until ~ 1917-1922. From 1917 - April 1948, under control of the British, Wilhelma was apparently an internment camp, not a village at all. Since May 1948 it has been a part of Israel. These pictures from the Commons appears to show that the area is still known as Wilhelma, even if it is also known as Bnei Atarot. I think it more correct and specific to place Wilhelma in Israel given the geography, the history and the currrent situation, (that for the better part of the time it has been occupied freely, ie not a prison camp, it has been occupied by Jews and Israelis. Snakeswithfeet (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • As noted in our discussions, I disagree with the move. Wilhelma only existed as a village in the pre-Mandate era - hence the DABs of Mandate Palestine or Israel are inappropriate. Israel is a particularly inappropriate DAB, as since Israel was founded the site has been called Bnei Atarot. Number 57 22:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Number57 that neither Mandate Palestine or Israel are approriate. Tiamuttalk 19:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Mandate Palestine is not appropriate. But Israel is for a number of reasons. The most compelling argument (I believe) has to do with the Category of Templer settlements (shouldn't that be Templar settlements?) itself category:Templer settlements lists a half dozen other Templer settlements, of which only Wilhelma is listed as being in Palestine. The categories included on this page have mostly to do with Israel: Category:History of Israel, Category:Palestine, Category:Populated places in Israel, Category:Christianity in Israel, cs:Kategorie:Templerské osady

  • As does this web-cam page: [1]
  • The winery known as Villa Wilhelma draws on the history of the region " Not far from there in Moshav Bnei Atarot, an old Templar colony, Villa Wilhelma produces wine from grapes of the Galilee. They are located in a villa built in the 19th century, where they hold tastings and seminars. "

The following books too place Wilhelma in Israel, not in Palestine:

  • Jewish National Fund (1949). Jewish Villages in Israel. Jerusalem: Hamadpis Liphshitz Press. p. 178. Book places Wilhelma in Israel
The current name (Palestine) is inappropriate, if not misleading. There was never a county called Palestine. SWF's position makes far more sense.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you are concerned that there was never a country called Palestine, then "Ottoman Empire" is the solution. Number 57 19:17, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am still of the opinion that Wilhelma was a Templer village in (what is now) Israel, though I don't intend to make a federal case of it. Reliable sources above put it in Israel today. This Ha'aretz article which is a reference for this article, says this:

"In 1868 the first two Templer colonies were established in Palestine - in Haifa and Jaffa - followed by Sharona (now next to where the Kirya military complex sits in Tel Aviv), Wilhelma (today Bnei Atarot), Bethlehem in the Galilee, Waldheim (today Alonei Abba) and a subsidiary of the colony in Jaffa, called Valhalla, where the Lorenz Cafe was located."

Only the previous Templer village in Bethlehem is said by Wikipedia said to be "a Palestinian city" and by that they are talking contemporary Palestine not the Mandate nor the Ottoman Empire. For the rest, Wikipedia places these towns in contemporary Israel. Alonei Abba has an article that puts it in Israel, and the disambiguation page for Waldeim puts it in Israel. Waldheim does not have its own article, just a section as part of the history of Alonei Abba. The Templers also apparently founded Haifa, and Wikipedia puts Haifa in Israel. A name change doesn't make it a different place. A different name does not change either its geography or its history. I suggest considering a merge of Bnei Atarot and Wilhelma in the same way as Alonei Abba and Waldeim. Snakeswithfeet (talk) 21:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing the point, i.e. that Wilhelma effectively ceased to exist in 1917, whereas all the other places still exist (Bethlehem, Haifa etc). Parallel cases are (for instance) Roman towns which no longer exist - and they are disambiguated by the Roman Province which they were in at the time, and I have found several examples of this form of disambiguation being used, such as (note they are not restricted to the Roman Empire) Rama (Gaul), Feronia (Etruria), Ad Turres (Latium), Traianopolis (Phrygia) etc.
As for merging it into Bnei Atarot, as you noted above, "Wilhelma is not totally identifiable with Bnei Atarot". Number 57 09:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Number 57, I did not make the statement you claim - "As you noted above, 'Wilhelma is not totally identifiable with Bnei Atarot.'" What I said was that Benny Morris, in the reference I provided, "seems to imply that Wilhelma is not totally identifiable with Bneit Atarot..." "Merely" would have been a better choice of words than "totally," but please don't parse my words to fit your own agenda.
Wilhelma as a Templer village has indeed ceased to exist, but it remains a populated place with a name change. It's Templer tradition as a winery has continued with the Israelis, and its history is noted by same, and a number of sources (above) continue to place Wilhelma in Israel.
If, however, you want to use the convention you describe for Gaulish towns instead of following the example of say, Alonei Abba, we should name it Wilhelma, (Palestine) noting clearly that its effective life as a Templer village was 1902-1917. I would recommend the following small changes to the article to make it clear that we are talking about a Templer colony that no longer exists.
Wilhelma (Hebrew: וילהלמה‎, originally in German: Wilhelma-Hamîdije) was a German Templer colony established in Palestine region of the Ottoman Empire. Located southwest of al-'Abbasiyyah near Jaffa, it was originally settled by German settlers in 1902. Wilhelma-Hamîdije was named in honour of King William II of Württemberg, Emperor Wilhelm II and Sultan Abdul Hamid II, however, only the first half of the name prevailed.
Since November 1917, Wilhelma ceased to exist as a village since it was transformed into an internment camp by.....etc"
In that case, I believe that much of the part about Wilhelma in Israel should be removed from the article and inserted into the Bnei Atarot article instead, with only the smallest mention that the geographical area that was once Wilhelma is now in Bnei Atarot, Israel. Snakeswithfeet (talk) 17:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be an article about the German colony. It was in Palestine (the official name of the place it resided) and it did not exist after 1948 even if the place name is still used. The current name is in line with usual naming conventions. Also it is not true that it was an internment camp from 1917 onwards. The given source (Glenk) does not say that at all and the text needs fixing. The inhabitants were interred in Egypt in 1918 after the British takeover but returned in 1920. It was turned into an internment camp in 1939. Between 1921 and 1939 it was a functioning colony. Zerotalk 12:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelma airport??[edit]

Google gives lots of hits for "Wilhelma airport", with some newspaper-level claims that it was the original name of Ben Gurion airport. However, neither "Wilhelma airport" nor "Wilhelma aerodrome" seem to have been used in the Palestine Post, while "Lydda Airport" and "Lydda Aerodrome" appeared lots of times (even before the airport was complete). Zerotalk 13:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I checked on a map and the closest place of the airport was Wilhelma and so that may not be impossible the aiport was called Wilhelma airport but that is indeed a little bit strange. Noisetier (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A British 1939 survey map (1:100000) shows the airport exactly mid-way between Lydda and Wilhelma. The airport itself is labelled "Lydda Airport". I'm inclined to believe that "Wilhelma airport" is a myth. Zerotalk 00:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I will not fight for 500 m [2]. Noisetier (talk) 11:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The road distance to the center of Wilhelma and to the center of Lydda was immeasurably different. [3] ;) Zerotalk 12:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Never heard of Wilhelma Airport. Maybe the newspapers cited Wikipedia's BG Airport article ;) In any case, I have a book called An Empire in the Holy Land, about the British administration in the mandate, and it does not mention a Wilhelma Airport as far as I can tell. Still, if the official IAA site mentioned this name, I don't think we should discount it entirely. Maybe I can find other sources later. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many newspapers consider Wikipedia as a reliable source... ;) Noisetier (talk) 11:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Noisetier (talk) 11:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC) The Times also calls it only Lydda Airport, starting in 1935. Not one reference to Wilhelma Airport. Zerotalk 10:28, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could the German have built a small aerodrome (read a landing pist) before 1920 ? Noisetier (talk) 11:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From 1918 to 1921 they were in a detention camp in Egypt. Before then would have been very early for an airport of any sort. But who knows? Zerotalk 12:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well. My hypothesis makes no much sense... From the Palestine Post articles that widely use "Lydda aerodrome" or "Lydda airport" wordings even before it was built, I don't see any other research direction than the existence of a (private ?) small "airfield" in the area and that would have been named Wilhelma...
Maybe some German aviators (with recon aircrafts) fought alongside the Ottomans during WWI and had installed their "airfield" there ? ([4])
Noisetier (talk) 08:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Naming[edit]

I'm not sure what has happened with the naming of this page, but it looks the name fell victim to edit-warring. The proper naming seems to be Wilhelma (colony), in line with other Templer colony articles. Wilhelma, Palestine is nice as a second name, but it is rather confusing because it was founded in Ottoman Mutasariffate of Jerusalem, later was in British Palestine and now colony remains are in Israel. I guess all options Wilhelma, Mutassarifate of Jerusalem (or Wilhelma, Ottoman Empire?), Wilhelma, Mandatory Palestine and Wilhelma, Israel are problematic.GreyShark (dibra) 12:50, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The title is the original one from the article and there was never any warring over it. I presume left it as "Palestine" as the colony existed during both Ottoman and Mandatory era, but was abandoned by the time Israel came into existence. I am not convinced that "colony" is a good option as most people think of a colony as a territory rather than an individual settlement. "Templar colony" might be better though. Number 57 15:48, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I dont see any reason to change the name. nableezy - 16:09, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Palestine" was the common name for the country over the full life of this place, both in English and German. Zerotalk 20:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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