Talk:Welsh Gold Dragon

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This is the talk page of a redirect that has been merged and now targets the page:
• Welsh Dragon
Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at:
• Talk:Welsh Dragon
Merged page edit history is maintained in order to preserve attributions.

Notability[edit]

I found this page because you linked it from a page I watch. Per WP:DEMOLISH I will give this some time for you to establish what it is that you are building here, and won't edit or otherwise interfere on the page. However I wonder if you have considered whether this subject is notable for an article. The Gold dragon banner of Owain Glyndwr is well established, but I am unaware of any "Gold Dragon of Wales". Your lead at the moment is problematic because it reads: The Golden Dragon (Welsh: Y Ddraig Aur) is a symbol used by Celtic Briton leaders, Uther and Arthur Pendragon and later by Owain Glyndwr, the last native Prince of Wales. I have read the whole of your source for use by Uther and Arthur. William Ferris proposes some sources that establish a dragon banner, at least once called Gold. But the primary sources cited are just Geoffrey of Monmouth and others, and have little if anything to do with a historical Arthur. I don't think the lead should say it was used by these leaders, because we don't even have any good evidence that these people existed. OK, so it is legend, but the lead doesn't seem to tell us that. In any case, these can't be counted as a Gold Dragon of Wales. So all we really have is Glyndwr, and although he used the standard, he did not make that standard a national emblem for Wales. Where are the reliable sources that state that there is a gold dragon of Wales? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These are fair points. I will do some further research to clarify over the next few weeks. You're welcome to make additions to the page. Titus Gold (talk) 20:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are diligently adding a lot of sources, and indeed, WP:OVERCITE may be an issue, but I think we need to talk about WP:RS. For instance, the text this dragon would also have flown throughout his campaign for Welsh independence is supported by 4 sources but these are 3 newspapers and the BBC website. All of them are reliable published sources for news (although quality varies) but per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, none of these are a reliable source for the claim that Glyndwr's dragon flew throughout the campaign. This is being presented as a history article, so what historians have said there is such a thing as a Welsh Gold Dragon standard? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am also hitting a wall verifying this: Celticists have suggested that the original Welsh dragon was of a "ruddy gold" colour. You quote this from Ferris (1959), but he references Scott-Giles (1951), that is "The Romance of Heraldry". Scott Giles has the statement exactly as you have it here. Yours is a direct quote, but Scott-Giles provides no reference. We remain in the dark as to who these Celticists are, and on what grounds they make the claim that the red dragon was originally "ruddy gold". In any case, suggesting this implies there was an earlier Welsh gold dragon smacks of WP:OR. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And now you have added another source, Fox-Davies (1909), and it looks like this is where Scott-Giles (1951) got the claim quoted by Ferris (1959) and now by you that the dragon was ruddy gold and not gules originally (but with speculation it was not Welsh at all). Again, however, there is no source for the statement. The "many Welsh scholars" are unnamed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:24, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree there is still some development left to do. Would appreciate any help you can provide. I will try to find a better source for Glyndwr's campaign. Titus Gold (talk) 11:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agreee with the merge proposal; when the unreliable, unfindable, and over-imaginative sources are removed, there isn't enough material to make a useful article.

Incidentally, in St Thomas's church in Salisbury, there's an Elizabethan - not quite sure what to call it, heraldic achievement maybe - anyway, heraldic thing, with a recognizable dragon which is definitely gold rather than red. I'll see if I can dig out a picture from an old hard drive. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could you add these comments and future comments about a merger on to the talk page on Welsh dragon please? That sounds interesting indeed. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 17:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]