Talk:Tsoureki

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On the ethymology of çörek/tsoureki/choreg[edit]

I am not interested in the origin of çörek/tsoureki/choreg or whatsoever, as it would be a nonsence attempt. Even, I argue that it is part of a collective culture. What I would like to argue is that the ethymology of the word directs us to the Turkish word çevre-k (çevirmek) for to round, rounded et cetera (cf. An Ethymological Dictionary of Turkish Language, Sevan Nişanyan). Every language also transforms words from other languages, in which case the borrowed word becomes distinct in some sense. Hence, I propose the three words to be under different titles instead of redirecting to the Greek word tsoureki, as otherwise it would be unjust to the other languages. Furthermore, I recommend the ethymology also be mentioned under each title, as it is so in many entries in Wikipedia.

The reference [3] says "the Persian word chörek", this does not even qualify as a reference. Persian does not even have the letter ö. This is obviously a Turkish word.

On Vasilopita[edit]

I do not think you can have the entry on Vasilopita without noting that a "kings bread" -- which is what Vasilopita also literally means -- complete with token for luck or debt is a pre Christian phenomena. The name, while atrributed to the St. Basil, obviously harkens back to quite ancient Kings bread. Basil comes from Vasileos, meaning King and Pita means cake.

This is a pre-Christian tradition marking the end passing of the apogee of winter. We know for a fact the kings cake was part of the rebirth of the sun festival mentioned complete with a bean or figurine as a token some three centuries before Christ. It probably originates much ealier in Mediterannean antiquity.

To simply say it is named after the St. Basil ingores its true origins 71.252.84.249 19:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you can not mention it since the two are completely separate and not connected, one is based on Western European folkore while the other is based on Anatolian and Eastern European folkore. Any connection they might have does not happen until France turns to Christianity in 496 A.D. when Chlodovocar (Clovis, or Louis), converted most of the Frankland to Christians...that is a century after St. Basil and the story of the Vasilopita. So basically the Vasilopita and what you call the 'pre-christian' "kings bread" have absolutely nothing in common and are not related. The American cajun king cake dates back to France and to the Carnival Season which have some similarities with the Vasilopita but not really, and the king cake might have some origins to some pre-Christian tradition of French-Gaul since they come from the same region but the Christian Vasilopita that is talked about in this article and which is named after St. Basil and originates in Asia Minor has absolutely nothing in common with the origins of what you call "kings bread". Placing tokens or money in Greek sweet breads are not only found in Vasilopita; Christmas Bread and Easter Bread also have tokens put in them. And yes, we know very well that the etymology of vasili is Greek and means king. As well as the fact that any other languages who use the term are derived from the Greek meaning.BeNNoulA 29 June 2006
PS:What I meant by "we know very well what the etymology means" is that anyone of Greek origins knows very well what the names Basil, Vasilis, Vassiliki, Basiliki, etc. etc. mean and from where they are derived from.BeNNoulA 29 June 2006

the story of vasilopita[edit]

I also agree, that the vasilopita has nothing to do with the "king's bread". Its name derives from Vasileios and pita (i.e. kind of bread). As for the story of vasilopita, when i was in school i was told the follow story for the vasilopita: Caesaria was besieged (maybe by Persians) and was strong need for soldiers and, of course, for money for having and paying them. So Vasileios asked the people of Caesaria to contribute with everything valuable one could give. And so it was done. After the success repulse of the enemy, many gold things, jewellry and the similar were left and it was necessary to return them to their proprietors. As it was extremely difficult to return what one were given, Vasileios got the idea of the pita and inserted one of the remainings in the little breads he had ordered. Thus everyone would receive something valuable. And this became the custom of vasilopita. Thank you Yannis

(as my english's quite bad, you may correct it, if this comment is to appear as part of the article).

Merge with Cheoreg[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was to merge Quite (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This bread called tsoureki, çörek or choreg appears to be the same as described under the title Cheoreg.  --Lambiam 14:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Just the Greek and Turkish names for the same delicacy. Dimadick (talk) 09:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Tsoureki seems to be a seasonal holiday bread - choreg is made all year (Armenian). -- 9 February 2009

Comment: I agree - as an Australia of Armenian descent, we only each choreg at Easter - in fact I only heard about it being a daily occurence looking on the web today. 1 March 2009

I, too, am pro merging the two pages. This would make easier, if anything, the comparison of ingredients, techniques and use of this festive bread in various cultures.Zafran59 (talk) 01:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Image![edit]

Is it really a Turkish corek? It says it's for Paskalya (Pascha/Easter), and to my knowledge most Turks are Muslim not Orthodox. So is it a Rum (Byzantine/Greek from Turkey) corek? Or is it a Yunan (Greek from Greece) corek?

Arkadaslar, resimdeki corek Paskalya Bayrami coregidir. Yani, Turk coregi degil. Su corek Yunan mi, Rum mu? Ermeni mi? Dusunuyorum ki su corek Rum bir coregidir. (ok this is in Turkish maybe a Turk could answer us if this is the kind of corek that the Greek minority in Turkey make for Pascha).

Filoi mou, afto tsoureki einai enas Lambrokouloiuras ap' ti Tourkia (ap' ti Poli), i ap' ti Ellada; (and in Greek) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru (talk • contribs) 16:17, 5 December 2010

The following are high-quality, freely licensed images of Greek tsoureki, which could be used in this article:

Melchoir (talk) 09:49, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure about the use of "Turkish" in the caption, however, the cited Oxford reference confirms a braided Tsoureki variation with dyed easter eggs. All the non-blog/user generated Tsoureki recipes I've seen are for a slightly sweet bread with egg.[1][2][3][4] This is called paskalya cörek in Turkish, but there are other types also. The common usage of Tsoureki in English is for "Greek holiday breads" - it includes variations with a cross decoration for Christmas, dyed eggs for Easter, and another type for St. Basil's day.[5] This holiday bread is usually flavored with mastic or mahlab. (Here's some more about that).[6] (Most daily breads are not flavored with mastic.) Seraphim System (talk) 18:22, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are christian/orthodox Turks, not just in Turkey (ie Agauz). Yes, it is a Turkish cuisine. Do not forget that there were several kingdoms just a century ago and cultural borrowings are pretty normal.

This topic should be merged with choereg because Paskalya çöreği is just a variety of a coeteg/çörek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.167.103.165 (talk) 11:58, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Greek Easter Bread". Food Network. Retrieved 2018-07-22.
  2. ^ "Tsoureki (Greek Easter Bread)". Martha Stewart. 2013-02-28. Retrieved 2018-07-22.
  3. ^ "Tsoureki bread (Greek Easter bread)". BBC Food. Retrieved 2018-07-22.
  4. ^ "Paul Hollywood's Tsoureki- Greek Easter Bread Recipe". PBS Food. 2018-03-12. Retrieved 2018-07-22.
  5. ^ The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets. Oxford University Press. 2015-04-01. ISBN 978-0-19-931362-4.
  6. ^ Davidson, Alan (1981-01-01). National & Regional Styles of Cookery: Proceedings : Oxford Symposium 1981. Oxford Symposium. ISBN 978-0-907325-07-9.

Tsoureki vs Christopsomo[edit]

Does any Greek confuse these two? --Xoristzatziki (talk) 20:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 July 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 03:04, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tsoureki → Çörek – This dish originated in Central Asia and should move to its original name çörek - unlike Tzatziki (which is also a loanword) this is not a WP:COMMONAME - see the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery for discussion of the dishes historical origin Seraphim System (talk) 05:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources:[1][2][3]

  • Oppose without reference to the common name used in English sources. The original name is not that relevant. —  AjaxSmack  18:33, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I guess there can be two articles. This one discusses the etymology and there is a lot of content for a second article. I could compromise on cheoreg since it's easier to pronounce. That's what The Oxford Companion to Food uses. (choerek)[4] Seraphim System (talk) 18:41, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need for two articles either; this one's short enough. Redirects will get readers here just fine. Find out which name is most commonly used in English-language sources and go with that. —  AjaxSmack  18:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think I made a mistake proposing a move as they seem to be completely different things. Tsoureki is a holiday bread, çörek isn't. According to Oxford this is paskalya coregi in Turkish, but there are many other kinds of çörek also.Seraphim System (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NB this merge discussion above where editors felt the topic was best dealt with in one article. —  AjaxSmack  16:08, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a good idea to merge a lot of the food stubs until an editor is willing to expand them. That doesn't mean that they can never be recreated just because they were merged. (I removed the non-reliable sources from this article yesterday. If the unsourced content was removed from this article, there wouldn't be much left.) My approach to food articles is to follow the usual procedure for creating articles - first the parent, then the spinouts. The reason I prefer to follow this order for article creation is because some variations of foods have enough content to justify a spinout to avoid overburdening the parent - but it's hard to predict what needs to be spun out before actually writing the article.Seraphim System (talk) 17:47, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closer Just to keep things simple, I've already basically withdrawn this nomination.Seraphim System (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The Horseback Kitchen of Central Asia". Food on the Move. Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery. 1996. p. 246. Retrieved 2018-07-16.
  2. ^ Csato, Eva Agnes; Csató, Éva Ágnes; Isaksson, Bo; Jahani, Carina (2005). Linguistic Convergence and Areal Diffusion: Case Studies from Iranian, Semitic and Turkic. Psychology Press. ISBN 978-0-415-30804-5.
  3. ^ Gavin, Paola (2005-10-11). Mediterranean Vegetarian Cooking. Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 978-1-59077-191-4.
  4. ^ Davidson, Alan; Jaine, Tom JaineTom (2006). "Choerek". The Oxford Companion to Food. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-280681-9. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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