Talk:The Stig/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Black Stig series question

Wasn't the black Stig series 1&2, and the white one starting with 3 (the picture captions say 1-3 and 4+) 84.56.106.60 15:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I just checked and that is correct. The white Stig was introduce on episode 2 of season 3 (Nov 2, 2003). I'll update the page to reflect this. PS2pcGAMER 09:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The Stig's real identity

There seems to be a one-man discussion at Ben Collins (a page with no other useful information) about the identity of the Stig -- should we move that discussion here, and/or write an actual article for Ben Collins [1] Ojw 11:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that Heikki Kovalainen the Renault F1 test driver and GP2 race driver admitted that it was him that drove the Renault R24 F1 car around the top gear track in the 2004 series, masquerading as The Stig. I can't find where I read it though. --202.1.119.192 05:31, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that, if the most common theory is that the stig is Ben Collins, that he should be mentioned. I recall that that was part of the article Duke toaster 19:44, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

If you read the Ben Collins article, it's actually claiming that Collins is The Stig. APclark 20:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The statement made on Ben Collins' article is not verifiable so cannot be taken as fact. - Dan`C 14:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

the Ben Collins thing is a Red herring. It has been for a while. He filmed something for Top Gear once and since then people in the motoring industry have joked that he was the new Stig. Ben Collins has been out of the country for mojority of the past two years - so he has not even been around for Top Gear filming.

Back in the summer Davina McCall was booked as a guest and pulled out on the very day they record (it's a wednesday) she appeared at a later date in the end, but the show was all set up and ready to record and they had no guest - the only celeb they had on the location was Damon Hill - why was he there? because he is there every week, Jeremy played it quite well - "first time we have ever had a F1 driver, "you took that corner differently than the stig" - "everyone thinks you are the stig etc" and of course they had to come up with a new board for F1 drivers.

Colin McRae is used on the days that damon hill is not free.

Do you have any evidence to back this claim up, James? So far, this is just hearsay Stephenb (Talk) 20:55, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Stephen my friend did four weeks work experience on the show in the summer. He was there - he met both damon and colin. Damon was the Stig on 8th, 15th and 22nd June (when he was the guest as well) and Colin was the Stig on 29th - they record on a wednesday in dunsfold. And what is the evidence that you have that ben collins is the stig? jameshb

I don't have any evidence - but your edits without any proof looked a lot like pure speculation/wish fullfillment added to the article. Now at least you've explained yourself (although it's still hearsay!) I will let the changes remain (though that's not to say that others need to believe you, or that I do, but I'm no petrolhead :-) ). Anyway, thanks for finally making your case, rahter than making edits without any summary backing them up. Stephenb (Talk) 20:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I also know someone who worked on the programme for a few weeks. He said there were several Stigs but did not mention anyone as famous as MaCrae/Hill. Apparently some took part in the Aygo football match. That makes a lot of sense to me, as I would have thought they'd have been keen to say they had Hill or MaCrae as test drivers, but would be much more keen to keep the identity quiet if the Stigs were comparative journeymen. (I know several of the footballers were British touring Car Champions, but that's hardly the same as F1 champions like Hill or World Rally champs like McCrae) JRJW Feb '06

The News of the World published an article claiming The Stig was Ben Collins as stated in a subsequent news item on another website 1. -- Feenix^{(talk • email)} 21:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Er, that satirical site doesn't mention Ben Collins. The line there is, hilariously, "regular tester "The Stig" (whose real identity was revealed in a News of the World sting to be Bob Willis)". The News of the World article appeared on December 4th and simply says they can "exclusively reveal" Stig's identity. Clarkson and producer Andy Wilman are quoted basically refusing to comment, and there is no interview with Collins. In fact, there is no actual evidence in the article at all. --143.52.5.181 15:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, the information was correct as of 5 December 2005 when I posted the link and checked the website. It must, therefore, have been subsequently edited. In either case it is academic as a scan of the newspaper has been posted here. -- Feenix^{(talk • email)} 21:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Another part of The Stig's mythology I've heard is that he was one of the presenters of the previous incarnation of Top Gear who'd defected to Channel 5 after cancellation (See Top Gear). For contractual reasons he (or she) couldn't be seen to appear on the BBC, so the alias of "The Stig" was invented. This is purely hearsay, and until this crackpot theory becomes as popular as any other, it obviously doesn't belong in the main article for The Stig. Astatine 16:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I have the Jeremy Clarkson latest DVD ("Heaven and Hell" - good work Jeremy) and the Stig appears on it with "Simpson" on his helmet. Could it be Adrian Simpson of Fifth Gear? (Added by a Jeremy Clarkson Fan, 11:50am on 26 December 2005 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.85.89 (talk • contribs)

Simpson is a brand of racing helmets (http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/), hence the word appearing on the Stig's helmet on the DVD. I don't think they'd be careless enough to put his real name on his outfit anyway. —This unsigned comment was added by 81.106.214.110 (talk • contribs) .

I think that this section should have the theories listed and then have the supporting evidence bulleted beneath like so:

The Stig is a woman.

He was seen wearing a dress in season six, episode #3
He seems to drive green cars the fastest

That would make it easy for readers to see the various theories and the reasons for/against them. —This unsigned comment was added by 65.31.174.161 (talk • contribs) .

After speaking to Perry McCarthy (he was hired as a special guest at a track day) when asked about the real identity of the current stig, he said there are multiple drivers whom drive as the stig on top gear instead of one single driver. —This unsigned comment was added by 86.139.245.41 (talk • contribs) March 21, 2006.

Is there any possibility that it is Sabine Schmitz - the german Nurburgring expert that attempted to drive a van round the ring faster than Jeremy had gone in the deisel Jag? After the video Jeremy said that we'd probably be seing a lot more from Sabine in the next series yet to my knowledge she has never returned. I don't have any evidence and haven't uncovered much online but was wondering if others where thinking the same thing. It would make sense as she's increadibly competent behind the wheel, relatively unkown in the UK and also relatively androgenous in a race suit so would not be considered as the stig is usually believed to be a male? forgive me if I posted this in the wrong place - 1st time I've ever ventured onto Wikipedia.

I have heard (though I cant think where) that the Stig may in fact be ex F1 driver and current ITV commentator Mark Blundell. Any theories on this?--Edchilvers 10:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Adding a phrase

I was trying to think of a way to work-in the phrase "tame racing driver", but gave up :) - Gobeirne 15:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Nothing is impossibe ;) - vw12 05:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

"Known" fact question

What exactly does "He can accumbularate." mean? Is it just made up, or is it misspelled? If it is I'm not exactly sure what it's supposed to be... Has anyone seen the episode where this was said? --Poody

I can't name the specific episode, but I seem to remember it. Then again, I could be making it up. Sounds like Clarkson, though. --DarrenBaker 16:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Known" Facts about the stig Section

I have to ask this question: How big is "too big" of this section? It seems that the section might suffer from what other articles have been dubbed with Banishment to Wikiquote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantthinkofausername (talk • contribs)

I tend to agree with you. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

So, how big is too big?--Cantthinkofausername 07:59, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Well since the quotes take up over 50% of the entire article's vertical space, I consider that too much. Therefore, I think we should just move the quotes to wikiquote. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 08:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I have created a wikiquote page for Top Gear (as I didn't think the Stig could justify his own). I haven't removed the duplicated quotes from the article yet as I am about to go to sleep (Someone else feel free to removed them). --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 11:03, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

American Stig and more

To avoid a potential revert war, I'll go to the talk page first. Discussing who the American Stig is just doesn't make sense to me. For one, AFAIK, Top Gear America hasn't been picked up and only a pilot was made. In Top Gear Magazine, they stated that the Stig used for the pilot was the white Stig from the British show. Two, citing "some automotive forums...Names flown about include..." isn't a source or fact, it is pure speculation by people and as such, doesn't belong in an encyclopedia entry. While I am on the subject, the Colin McRae paragraph should also be removed in my opinion, as again, it is all speculation. At least the Ben Collins and Julian Bailey claims are backed up with a source, even if it is a questionable one. PS2pcGAMER (talk) 10:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Colin McRae I didn't write, so it's not my worry. The American part, I think should be included. Isn't it a past time to wonder who the Stig really is (with can be loosely associated with speculation)? To make an arguement, it has been proven at least twice that the person behind the Helmet wasn't the "regular" Stig (Frank Mountain with the MC12, Heikki Kovalainen with the Renault F1), so it does lead creedence that more than one person have been under the helmet. However, I really loathe to clutter up the area with {{Future TV series}} along with the 3 images already in that area.--Cantthinkofausername 10:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The info about the American Stig should not be included. It is speculation, and counts as original research. It also contains the ever-annoying weasel words. It's pretty much indefensible, and as such, I'm removing it. If you find another verifiable source to cite for the information, then re-add it with better wording. And please, for gods sake, cite your source. --DarrenBaker 19:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Not a valid reason for deletion in my honest opinion. Look, speculating whom the Stig is one of the unique hallmarks of him. Even if it is "original research" it and not right, is an undeniable part of The Stigs background. Fans have and will continue to speculate whom is underneath that helmet. You can't have a bio about The Stig without mentioning fan speculation on whom he is and what names have been tossed about. If you deny that aspect, then your not giving him his due and not giving him a better bio. --Cantthinkofausername 08:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, if your gonna delete my POV, it also helps to delete the POV about Colin McRae as well. Don't do a sloppy job.--Cantthinkofausername 08:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It is a most valid reason for deletion, and here's why: The Wikipedia is not an outlet for speculation or research. You may add only things that have already been published in reputable sources. Period, full stop. You may state that there is speculation, but not the speculation itself. There is a world of difference. I apologise fully for not deleting the stuff on Colin McRae. I'll be more thorough next time. --DarrenBaker 08:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

This sentence opens up a problem that is addressed by adding that fan speculation: Many racing drivers are often asked if they are the Stig by the public. So say John C. Student is doing a report about The Stig for his school paper, and he needs to cite several racing drivers that have been linked to possibly being The Stig. But it's not in this article. So other than searching who knows how many websites for a list of names (which could number possibly thousands), it would be prudent to put some common ones for him to look into further. Otherwise, it defeats the educational value of Wikipedia.

So tell me, would you like to be the main reason when this student gets a lower grade because we didn't add that relevant info? I prefer to add the info to help, otherwise, I seriously question the educational validity of Wikipedia in adding such info. If not, then I think Creationism and Evolution should be excised due to the fact that it's merely speculation as well.--Cantthinkofausername 05:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

What the Wikipedia is and what you would like it to be are somewhat at odds with each other. The rules of the Wikipedia are simple. Only information that has previously been published may be added. That's all, end of story. If you can find a reputable source that lists the drivers he has been linked to, then by all means please add it. Otherwise, it stays out.

From the article on verifiability:

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources.

2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor.

3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

Incidentally, if the student gets a lower grade because he chose to write his essay using only one source, that's his or her own fault, and they deserve the grade they get. That's what search engines are for. Creationism and Evolution are not articles containing original research and speculation not contained anywhere else. They are reflections of already available information. --DarrenBaker 10:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Futhermore, if "John C. Student" uses wikipedia as his only source, it is his own fault. See Wikipedia:Risk disclaimer. As mentioned before, talking about the speculation surrounding the Stig's identity is valid, but not who. Besides, if we were to list all of the speculated identities as the Stig, the article would become quite lengthly and none of the claims would be verifiable. In any event, I am adding Template:unreferenced to the page as I feel an article of this nature really needed sources for the claims that it does make. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 10:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

(minor addition). I should have used the {{fact}} tag instead. The three things that I felt that most needed a citation (either via a link or using the proper reference format) are now tagged. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 12:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

You two missed the ball completely. I never implied that "John C. Student" never used Wikipedia as his only source, rather use it as a "gateway" to other research. If he can't even get a list of names to work on, then what is the point of the article other than to glorify The Stig? When one search string for the Stig produces this result on Google, with Wikipedia on top, then what good is Wikipedia when it's missing infomation?

Like it or not, fan speculation is a critical part of The Stig, and just denying it or pulling up the rules doesn't resolve nothing. I prefer and demand mediation on a reasonable compromise to address this problem than tossing around rules, as I do believe that denying fan speculation is not in the best interests of this article. --Cantthinkofausername 12:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't just demand satisfaction, seek it thyself. --DarrenBaker 14:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not denying that there is a ton of speculation about who the Stig is. Mentioning the speculation about the Stig's identity should be included as I think it would be pretty easy to find a source/sources and it is a major part of the identity of the character. All that I am asking for is a source for any names that are included in the article. I spent some time this morning and wasn't able to find a published source on the internet saying that Hill was the Stig, but if anyone else has any better luck, please add any (about any person) that you may come across. Your point that Wikipedia is the first result for Google is important. A number of people are going to come across this article and if there are no sources to back up any claims made, then it looks poorly upon Wikipedia. IMO, it looks better to omit a name than a "my friend's brother's sister's boyfriend...says the Stig is" or "some people on the internet speculate the Stig is..." type thing. As Darren suggested, if you still disagree, feel free to take this to mediation and we'll get an outside opinion about the issue.

Out of curiosity though, why do you want the American part included? The show hasn't even been picked up yet AFAIK and the American Top Gear producers probably (my own speculation, which is ok as this is a talk page, but feel free to cite any sources that would correct me) haven't even chosen a potential American Stig. It would be premature to include such speculation, especially without a source. At least the Stig for the British version actually exists (and is verifiable), but I still feel that no names should be mentioned without a source.--PS2pcGAMER (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

New Stig?

I've been watching the new series of Top Gear and I can't shake the feeling that they've changed the Stig. His driving style is different (both the way he behaves in the cockpit and the way he pilots the car) --82.76.30.78 13:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Stig of the Dump?

I think the latest revision (removing reference to Stig of the Dump and Stig Blomqvist) is a retrograde step. Really think there should be some mention to Blomqvist, at least.

Thoughts? --Gavinio 23:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Personaly I think that as Jeremy Clarkson has already explained the reason behind The Stigs name I don't see the need to add any further commentary intimating that there may have been other reasons/people that influenced the choice of name as this can only be speculation, unless of course there is a sourceable comment from someone connected to Top Gear mentioning Stig Blomqvist or Stig of the Dump in that context. Regards. Death Eater Dan (Muahaha) 08:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Image:Articlestig.jpg

I removed this from the article. As it was being used, it was not proper fair use of the image. Instead, please use {{cite news}} to cite the newspaper story instead of a picture of the article. howch e ng {chat} 20:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"The truth is out" section

So sometime has gone by without nobody citing this source. Delete?--293.xx.xxx.xx 05:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Damon Hill Stig "Proof"

I've removed this phrase from the article: "On August 02, 2006 rumors of Damon Hill being the stig have been uncovered and he is indeed the stig. Proof can be found here: [2]" Rich 19:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll support the notation, under one caveat. The source of the article must be noted (and not via an imageshack link), and it's noted as a speculative assumption by a media organization rather than definitive proof. Otherwise, it's fair game to be deleted. --293.xx.xxx.xx 09:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for removal

Thanks to Symon for removing The job has now been taken by ex F3 driver Ben Collins (the White Stig) from the article. I was just about to delete it when it was suddenly gone! ;-) Darkfearytales 10:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think his name is out?

I think the name we're looking for is Tiff Needell. I've been trying to find the exact moment, but while listening to BBC Radio FiveLive on Thursday 21st September, one of the commentors, after Tiff had spoken about the sad tragedy involving Richard Hammond, then mentioned the Stig, in reference to Tiff? I'm trying to find it, but won't get a written source.... Any comments/thoughts? --Nunners 11:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Massive edits made to the article

I reverted the article back due to the massive ammounts of info that was excised without a through discussion on what is proper and what is not. While minor edits would be okay, I feel that the massive edit was extremely unconstructive and uncalled for. Discussing it would've at least cleared up some misconceptions, as I thought the edits was a vandalism attempt. --293.xx.xxx.xx 00:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I subscribe to the bold, revert, discuss philosophy myself. My edits were definitely NOT intended as vandalism. BTW I consider them to have been constructive and definitely called for. IMHO the article was going down the rocky road to fancruft. Ok, let's get cracking:

A lot of the article (TWO whole sections!) is unreferenced speculation and pure fancruft i.e. identity of the Stig. This isn't the problem in and of itself (in fact it is one of the major aspects of "The Stig" character), but the sheer amount of detail and episode by episode analysis and speculation conducted in the article IMHO runs into fancruft and could be construed as original research. An encyclopedia is supposed to give a "arm's length" treatment of the subject. This constitutes the MAJOR part of my edit so please pick this apart. I also summarised the "mystery of the Stig's identity" in my rewrite so that hopefully none of the essential points (i.e. that in the show he is intentionally presented as this "mysterious figure" and no-one knows his true identity) were lost.
I rewrote the lead-in paragraph in a way I thought "reads better" (by my own subjective judgment).
Removed what I consider (again, a personal judgment call) to be excessive detail and quoting in certain sections, and condensed a lot of the information in the article by writing it more concisely.
Remove the "Other appearances" section. Two of those "other" appearances were actually in Top Gear episodes (which hardly qualifies as "other" does it?), leaving only a single "other" appearance which was just of his overalls in a cupboard (which also happened to be in a Top Gear related DVD).
Rewrote the article in an out-of-universe style more appropriate for an encyclopedia. See WP:WAF (quote: "Wikipedia is an out-of-universe source, and all articles about fiction and elements of fiction should take an out-of-universe perspective.").

Everyone please jump in and discuss. Zunaid 07:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, you did wrong on several accounts:

1. Your recent collaboration history (Went back about 10 pages) shows no attempts to any Top Gear related article. Had you taken the time to look around and see whats what, you might've seen a few things that you edited out that were needed.

2. The {(Infobox_Celebrity)} was made in order to keep some sort of similarity to the current presenters Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond, and James May pages. The edit was uncalled for.

3. The Stigs "identity" is one of the unique things about him. What you edited out was an essential because people still claim (insert drivers name here) is the Stig, and the show has pretty much directly and indirectly pushed the myth that a Formula One driver might be The Stig. I found your edit extremely reckless in regards to this. In that respect, you neglected to keep Damon Hill's apperance on Top Gear, reduced Mark Webber to a picture, and completely dismissed the apperances and mentions made by Jeremy Clarkson of Nigel Mansell and Jenson Button. Plus they were properly referenced, and not fancruft.

4. The rest of the stuff, I really don't give a damn. The only thing I can think of is incorporate Listening Habits and Introductions inot Identity. Or at least split claimed identities of The Stig into a seperate section. Like Identity' and Who is The Stig?.--293.xx.xxx.xx 08:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

To answer your points:

Besides the Stig's identity, are there any other things I've edited out that "were needed"?
The infobox celebrity on this page (unlike on the pages on the other presenters) serves no purpose. Birth unknown? Occupation "tame racing driver"? Where is the "info" in that infobox? It looks like cruft, and as i said in the edit summary, I primarily changed it to a picture for reasons of spacing. Can we agree on this one?
Re: the stig's identity:
1. Reference number 4 is a blog/forum containing public speculation and thus is not a reliable source. It can be used as a reference for the opening sentence, but reporting the actual speculation that the blog contains should be avoided since it is not reliable info.
2. "The rumours that the Stig is Damon Hill were confounded when Hill appeared..." Were confounded? Really? Where is the evidence? Where is the citation? Hill's appearance proves/disproves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
3. I take your point about Webber, Mansell etc and shouldn't have blanketly excluded them, however:
4. I think the current section gets too bogged down in the details (Clarkson said this, Webber took this line, Mansell took that line, The stig takes this line etc etc) instead of presenting it in an "overview" style that one would expect from an encyclopedia. Also, some of the language used in the section reads like an analysis i.e. trying to figure out who the Stig is/isn't. This is not appropriate for Wikipedia (WP:NOR). The facts can/should be summarised and presented in a more "hands off" way.
As for the rest of the stuff, my only concerns are the "level of detail/minutae" (which can be cleaned up by summarising info) and the out-of-universe perspective.

Please respond to my above points so we can find a compromise. As a starting point, I intend working on the version I edited and fleshing out the Identity section, rather than the other way around. Zunaid 11:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The Damon Hill info was already on here and I just incorporated it into the section. I was thinking of "borrowing" parts of the stuff on Damon Hill's page, but my idea was to take the entire section there and just transplant it here. Maybe just steal the references.

Plus I reedited the info about the F1 guys and put it into the main Identity section. Limited Clarkson's observation to one driver, and again deleted info that was deleted before due to unsourced statements. The only other thing that I woulds like to stay is The Stigs Musical Habits. That should be incorporated into Identity. --293.xx.xxx.xx 08:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Current article looks great and very concise. I've had a go at merging my version with this one: reworded the lead-in and general style of the article to an "out-of-universe" and "arm's length" perspective. Commented out "other appearances" again as per above. Reworded the "Identity" section to read more "flowingly" (if I've removed anything important please add it back in). Wikilinked the dates in the references. Wikilinked racing line in the Jenson Button section.

After re-reading the identity section, I decided to break out "listening habits" into its own section again as it doesn't quite fit in (it doesn't link with the real-world identity of the Stig). Maybe some sort of "The Stig character" section could be done, which deals specifically with the in-universe identity of the Stig. Zunaid 14:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)