Talk:The Return of the King/Archive 1

Merge in Scouring of the Shire

It is all plot repetition except for about two sentences of commentary on what the significance of the scouring was and Tolkien's inspiration for it. After that, the Scouring should redirect here. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 04:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• Agree with merger proposal: Scouring of the Shire is one particular chapter in the 6th book, contained in the third volume of the singular novel. Its significance easily can be explained within the context of Return of the King, including the fact that it is missing from the film adaptation. Group29 (talk) 19:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Over-long article?

It seems to me that this article is over-long, do we really need a chapter by chapter breakdown of the book? This isn't very common in other book related articles. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 11:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the following. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 08:21, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Chapter summaries

The Return of the King is divided into books five and six. Book Five follows Aragorn and Gandalf up to the opening of the Black Gate. Book Six begins with Frodo and Sam's journey to Mount Doom.

Book V

• I - Minas Tirith - Gandalf and Pippin arrive in the great but decaying city of Minas Tirith, where they talk with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Pippin enters the service of the Steward to repay the debt he owed Boromir. Pippin then is taken through the city by Beregond, a soldier of the Guard, and later by Beregond's son Bergil. Pippin and Bergil end the day watching men from other lands in Gondor march in to defend the city. The Darkness begins.
• II - The Passing of the Grey Company - The story continues back at Dol Baran, where Gandalf and Pippin left the company. Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Théoden, and Éomer are overtaken by the Grey Company riding from Rivendell. They ride to Helm's Deep, where Merry offers his sword to Théoden and Aragorn looks into the palantír of Orthanc, reveals himself to Sauron, and wins the struggle for the Stone. Aragorn then decides to take to the Paths of the Dead and goes to Edoras and then Dunharrow. There, Éowyn tries to both dissuade Aragorn from taking to the Paths and attempt to accompany him on the journey. They pass through the underground tunnel of the Dead and come across the remains of an heir of Rohan. The Grey Company comes to the Stone of Erech in Gondor where they summon the Host of the Dead to fulfil their oath. The Company then rides into the darkness of Mordor.
• III - The Muster of Rohan - Théoden, Éomer, and Merry come down from the hills into Dunharrow and climb the stair of the Hold. There they learn that Aragorn has travelled the Paths of the Dead, and Théoden explains to Merry the story of the deadly road. Théoden then receives an emissary from Denethor, bearing the Red Arrow, who begs him to come to the aid of Minas Tirith. Merry is ordered to stay behind on account of his small stature, but he is secretly taken to Minas Tirith anyway by a rider called Dernhelm.
• IV - The Siege of Gondor - The story returns to Gandalf, and Pippin, who goes to wait on the Steward. Pippin and Beregond witness the return of Faramir and his remaining company, and the Nazgûl's attack on him thwarted only by Gandalf. Faramir comes to the city and reports that he had met Frodo and allowed him to continue into Morgul Vale. Faramir endures his father's wrath until Gandalf quells the argument and states that the Ring would not have in the end saved Minas Tirith. The next day Faramir is ordered to go and command the hopeless defence of the ruined Osgiliath, and is returned gravely wounded. After the Orcs overrun the Gondorian defences on the Pelennor, Minas Tirith is besieged. Denethor, mad with grief over the apparent loss of (now) both his sons, withdraws from leadership and leaves the defending of the city to Gandalf. The Orcs set the first circle of the city on fire and Denethor in his madness tries to burn himself and Faramir alive on a funeral pyre. The gates of Minas Tirith are broken, leaving Gandalf, Pippin and the Tower Guard of Gondor alone to stand against the Lord of the Nazgûl until the army of Rohan arrives.
• V - The Ride of the Rohirrim - The Rohirrim pass through the Drúadan Forest and the Stonewain Valley, with the aid of the native wild men and their leader, Ghân-buri-Ghân. The army arrives at Minas Tirith to see the breaching of its gate, and then charges into the battle.
• VI - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields - The warriors of Rohan and Gondor desperately engage the armies of Mordor, Rhûn and Harad. Théoden is thrown and crushed by his horse, mortally wounded. Dernhelm, now revealed to be Éowyn, slays the Lord of the Nazgûl with Merry's help. The Black Fleet arrives, heartening Sauron's forces. But the first ship bears the standard of the King of Gondor; Aragorn has arrived with Gondorian reinforcements. Together, the Gondorians and Rohirrim destroy Sauron's forces.
• VII - The Pyre of Denethor - Pippin tells Gandalf of Denethor's madness. The two return to the hallows where Beregond is defending the wounded Faramir from immolation. He has been forced to kill several men in the process. Gandalf ends the conflict and takes Faramir off the pyre, and Denethor momentarily appears to regain his senses. However, it is soon revealed that Denethor has been using a palantír and has thus lost all hope of victory, and that he does not wish to serve under Aragorn. Denethor then sets himself on fire. Faramir is taken to the houses of healing. Gandalf explains how Denethor rejected Sauron in the palantír but was tricked by the Dark Lord and despaired of all hope.
• VIII - The Houses of Healing - Théoden is laid in state in the main hall of Gondor. Éowyn, Merry, and many others are injured and placed in the houses of healing where Gandalf calls for Aragorn to come and assist, stating that the "hands of the king are the hands of a healer." Aragorn uses kingsfoil to save Faramir, Éowyn, Merry, and many more who are injured. The people of Minas Tirith now begin to see that their true king has come back among them.
• IX - The Last Debate - Gimli and Legolas enter Minas Tirith and meet Merry and Pippin again. The Captains of the West hold a counsel on their next action; they decide to send 7,000 men against Mordor to march on the Black Gate to keep Sauron distacted, giving the Ringbearer time to complete his task.
• X - The Black Gate Opens - The army, with Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Pippin (but not Merry) marches to the Black Gate. The Mouth of Sauron comes out to discuss terms, and presents tokens which were owned by Sam and Frodo. The Mouth of Sauron calls for an unconditional surrender and claims the lands east of the Great River for Sauron. Gandalf asks to see the hostages, but the emissary hesitates; thus Gandalf rejects the terms. The Mouth of Sauron then departs and the entire might of Mordor assails them. Pippin and Beregond are attacked by a Troll chieftain who is slain by Pippin. They ready themselves for death; but Pippin hears the cries that the Eagles are coming before losing consciousness.

Book VI

• I - The Tower of Cirith Ungol - Sam goes to find Frodo in the Orc tower. Sam discovers that the Orcs have killed each other in a quarrel over Frodo's possessions — especially his mithril coat. Sam finds Frodo in the top chamber of the tower and returns the Ring to him.
• II - The Land of Shadow - Sam and Frodo make their way into Mordor. They discover that Gollum is still on their trail. As they approach the vale of Udûn, they are captured by an Orc company. Just as Frodo nears exhaustion and death, Sam engineers an escape off the road.
• III - Mount Doom - Frodo and Sam reach Mount Doom. Gollum appears and tries to attack them, but Frodo overpowers him. Sam prepares to kill Gollum, but relents out of pity when Gollum begs for his life. Moments later, Frodo succumbs to the Ring's power and puts it on, exposing him at last to Sauron. Gollum knocks aside Sam and attacks Frodo, biting off his finger and taking the Ring, but then he slips and falls into the Cracks of Doom, destroying himself and the Ring. Frodo and Sam witness the fall of the Dark Tower as the mountain collapses around them.
• IV - The Field of Cormallen - The story returns to the Field of Cormallen, continuing from Book Five, chapter X; the eagles arrive and the Captains of the West stand as they witness the destruction of Mordor and hear Gandalf proclaim the success of the Ringbearer; Gandalf then mounts an Eagle and flies south to Mount Doom where he and the Eagles rescue Frodo and Sam; Sam awakes to find himself in Ithilien and realizes that he has not dreamt; Frodo and Sam are honoured on the Field of Cormallen near Cair Andros with a great feast; they are reunited with Strider—now proclaimed as King—and the rest of the Fellowship.
• V - The Steward and the King - chapter begins in Minas Tirith at the Houses of Healing after the armies departed for the Black Gate. Éowyn, ill at ease from her wound and brooding over Aragorn, is taken to see Faramir, who is immediately attracted to her. Merry is also in Minas Tirith and tells Faramir much of Éowyn's suffering. Éowyn and Faramir slowly fall in love and agree to marry. Later they see the arrival of the armies with Aragorn, Gandalf and the four hobbits. Gandalf crowns Aragorn King of Gondor. Aragorn makes Faramir prince of Ithilien and keeps the office of Steward, appointing the pardoned Beregond as his chief captain. Gandalf takes Aragorn to Mount Mindolluin to survey the lands of his kingdom where they find a sapling of the White Tree, which Aragorn uproots and plants in the court of the King. On midsummer's eve, Elrond, Galadriel, Arwen and the elves arrive in the city from the north, and Aragorn weds Arwen.
• VI - Many Partings - The company rides north to Rohan where they bury Théoden and then celebrate his life and reign in a great feast at Meduseld. They then ride to Isengard where they find that the Ents have replanted the trees in the valley, but have released Saruman and Gríma Wormtongue out of pity. Gimli and Legolas head north through Fangorn; Aragorn, taking the keys to Orthanc, returns to his kingdom; the rest of the company heads north where they meet Saruman and Gríma. Saruman refuses to repent and even steals Merry's pipeweed pouch. Galadriel and the Lórien elves leave over the pass of Caradhras; and the hobbits and Gandalf later arrive in Rivendell where they visit Bilbo, who has now grown incredibly aged.
• VII - Homeward Bound - The hobbits and Gandalf travel to Bree where they stay at the Prancing Pony, and are told by Butterbur that there has been trouble in Bree while they have been away. They assure Butterbur that things will become better because Aragorn, who Butterbur knew as Strider, is now the King, and then depart for the Shire. Gandalf leaves the hobbits near the Barrow-downs to visit Tom Bombadil, affirming their abilities to handle their own affairs from this point forward.
• VIII - The Scouring of the Shire - The hobbits arrive in the Shire to find it taken over by Frodo's distant cousin Lotho Sackville-Baggins, who is a puppet of 'Sharkey.' The Shire has been submitted to tyranny by the bigger men and their dupes—the Sheriffs—with the exception of the land belonging to the Tooks, which is under a state of semi-siege. Merry and Pippin help "raise the Shire" and lead a revolt against the ruffian Isengard men and half-orcs controlling the Shire. The Battle of Bywater is fought in which the main group of ruffians are defeated and expelled from the Shire. The hobbits find Saruman ('Sharkey') and Wormtongue at Bag End and expel Saruman from the Shire, which has suffered vast ecological damage from Saruman's forced industrialization. Saruman tries to kill Frodo but is foiled by the mithril coat. Frodo spares the evil wizard, but Wormtongue—who has murdered Lotho—kills Saruman, and is then killed himself by hobbit archers, thus ending the War of the Ring at the doorstep of Bag End.
• IX - The Grey Havens The cleaning up of the Shire. The hobbit resistors are released from prison. Sam discovers the gift that Galadriel has given him and uses the dust in the box to replant the Shire, culminating in the planting of the mallorn tree of Lórien. Several years pass, and Frodo begins to show signs of declining health and damage due to his wounds and the long burden of the Ring. Sam and Frodo go to meet the elves, Galadriel, and Bilbo travelling west through the Shire, and they travel to the Grey Havens where they meet Gandalf. Merry and Pippin arrive; Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf and the elves set sail to the west; Sam returns to Rose and their daughter Elanor at Bag End. In the later appendix it is noted that a lone ship eventually returned to the Grey Havens. Samwise Gamgee, the one time Ring-bearer, is at the end of his life taken to the Undying Lands.

Why did the fact of the planting of the Mallorn tree not make it into the article? Tigey (talk) 06:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the chapter summaries again, we're not a fan site and shouldn't be putting that much of a break down into the articles. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 19:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Appendices

Should discuss them a little, and the fact that they weren't part of the original publication... AnonMoos (talk) 00:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Title of Book 6

This has been reverted twice even though the article currently gives the title as The End of the Third Age with a reference in the Title subsection. Also see this picture of the cover art on the Millennium edition. --DocNox (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

It should really just be 'Book 6'. Generally in 3 volumes and single books don't have book titles. Millennium should not take precedence. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 18:29, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't disagree. But what's currently on the page is wrong and should be corrected one way or the other. --DocNox (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I will remove the title, as they aren't included in most editions of the book.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

This was resolved years ago. The inclusion of the titles is common across the articles for all three volumes. Please gain concensus if you wish to remove the titles from the three articles. Deagol2 (talk) 10:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge of the Scouring of the Shire

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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While The Scouring of the Shire is an important chapter, I don't think it needs its own article. This is a small article that is not likely to grow. I propose that it be merged here, where it can be read in context.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Just under a month ago the AFD for this ended in KEEP. [1] You suggested merge then, and others gave their reasons against it. My argument is there, no sense repeating it. I did add The_Scouring_of_the_Shire#Influences to the article, a notable writer of a popular series mentioning it like that, and reliable sources quoting him on that, I think adds to notability of this. Dream Focus 17:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support - even though there was a recent AfD, looking at it, the consensus appears to be either merge or redirect, rather than keep, yet somehow it was closed as keep. I didn't !vote at the AfD, but agree with Jack Upland that researchers would probably better be served if this was included in the target article, for contextual purposes. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 19:28, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: I've been advised that there is nothing wrong with having a merger discussion after a deletion discussion. "Keep" does not preclude merge.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:28, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Just under a month ago the AFD for this subject ended in keep. A merge is not appropriate. WP:NOTPAPER Lightburst (talk) 23:34, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support, at least in the short term Same reason I gave here, with the extra caveat that Andrew should be TROUTed for the talk page disruption he's been engaged in (my !vote actually predates all the others). (Or perhaps he should be indef-blocked at this point, since it shortly thereafter he also removed a maintenance tag without explanation. This kind of disruption from a long-term contributor cannot be taken as a good-faith mistake/misunderstanding.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:04, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

  It's also worth noting that Andrew duped the AFD closer with a list of sources he clearly hadn't read. This is the same kind of disruptive behaviour that he later engaged in at Hodor but fortunately was unable to convince the admin there, perhaps because the AFD remained open long enough for others to respond. He also canvassed all of the other keep !voters. I find it baffling that the community continues not only to allow such behaviour but to applaud and reward it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

  @Hijiri88: even if there were irregularities in the AfD, I don't think this is the proper venue to address it. You could discuss the AfD with the closing admin, bring the AfD to Wikipedia:Deletion review, or renominate the page for deletion. But trying to re-hash the decision here seems problematic. BenKuykendall (talk) 05:36, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Support I stand by my previous vote. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 15:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
• Merge Nothing presented justifies this content fork for a chapter in a book.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:26, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. This merger doesn't seem to give the AfD result to keep a fair chance. Admittedly, there are still a lot of problems with sourcing on the page. But that justifies improving the article (and/or taking it back to AfD in a couple of months) not circumventing the result of the AfD by merging. BenKuykendall (talk) 03:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

  BenKuykendall, I have been advised that "Keep" includes "Merge". Are you telling me this isn't true?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

  @Jack Upland: I don't know if there is a policy, but it is certainly not in the spirit of the deletion discussion in this particular case. To me, it appears from the AfD that the consensus was to fill out this article with the RSes given, NOT to redirect to a more general article. BenKuykendall (talk) 05:29, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose It looks like there are plenty of sources that could be used to reference the article, certainly enough to justify its existence as a separate entity. It woud be swamped in the main Return of the King article. Deagol2 (talk) 09:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - there's no future in wasting time on one AfD after another, one Merge discussion after another. It's astonishing that after more than ten years, the articles on both the book and the chapter are so badly cited, and so unscholarly (qua, unencyclopedic). Once we've added some of the excellent sources that are available (and, tell it not in Gath, whisper it not in the streets of Askelon) even maybe brought some of these LOTR articles to GA, the discussions will become more muted. Come on guys, let's do a bit of work together on the whole subject area. I've added a section on Significance already. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:29, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per the excellent work done so far (by Chiswick Chap) at The Scouring of the Shire#Significance. There is a need to discuss how to handle the main The Lord of the Rings article versus the articles on the three bits (volumes) it was published in (though don't get me started on whether the topic should be split up by the actual six books and the appendices...), and whether the three 'volumes' should mostly be spin-off plot summary, and if the critical reception and so on should be limited to the main article. But that is a separate discussion to how to handle chapters that have clear stand-alone significance. Carcharoth (talk) 11:03, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
• Merge - This article is surprisingly horrible, so it seems like it would be best to explore the topic here and split it out later. Regardless of how much it's talked about, it's still just a part of this novel, so it should need to represent undue weight due to size issues before being its own article. Remove the summary and most of the adaptation section, and you have something that, after some restructuring, would help get this article in shape. TTN (talk) 13:51, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Which article are you referring to when saying "surprisingly horrible"? Looking at your comment overall, it feels like there is a fundamental disconnect here between how you would write the article(s) and how those who are writing the articles (and who are familiar with the sources) would structure things (and are structuring things). Are you familiar enough with the sources to make this judgment and to put into practice what you are suggesting? If not, maybe you should be guided by what the editors familiar with the topic area are doing? Yes, a summary is needed in the The Return of the King article, but that does not preclude going into more detail in the The Scouring of the Shire article. There is a balance to be struck, and from what I can see, Chiswick Chap is getting that balance right. As of the time of writing, the Significance section of 'The Scouring of the Shire' has five subsections and has around 1250 words, well-written text all rigorously cited to its sources (all 15 of them). That is excellent work, which serves the reader best if left as a standalone article and would suffer if merged into the main parent article. Carcharoth (talk) 14:40, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
    • This novel article, for being a key component of such a major franchise, is in horrible shape. Right now, the chapter article is in such a state that the primary section is basically similar to an analysis section you'd see in a FA after removing doubled up information (adaptations and plot). There is no reason for it to currently be its own entity when a third of the article is redundant. It may very well be that it'd be undue weight once this article reaches GA/FA status, but I think that should happen before there is any consideration of splitting it out. TTN (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

      WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument. However, to address your claims, it is correct for a chapter article to summarize briefly what the chapter says; it's not excessively long. Such an article should then describe in whatever detail is needed what critics and academics make of it; and then note briefly how it has been adapted or taken up elsewhere in the arts or popular culture, which the article does. It's hard to imagine what else such an article should properly consist of, other than citations, of which it has plenty. Chiswick Chap (talk) 00:01, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      It's a basic fact. No mater if it can establish notability or not, the chapter is a spinout from the main article. If it's not a justified spinout due to size issues, then anything repeated is completely redundant. If the article is a justified spinout due to size, then doubling up in information is therefore necessary to establish context for the spinout. I simply don't understand the obsession with spinouts from articles that are nowhere near even qualifying as decent. It takes away from development of the main topic for a side project that may or may not even need to exist. TTN (talk) 00:14, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      I think the problem here is the rigidity regarding article hierarchy (understandable given the background of the debates on fictional topics). Yes, the normal process is to gradually work-up and spin-out more detailed content from a parent article, but sometimes the so-called spinout article has its own validity and a wider context and the relationship is more fuzzy than just direct one-to-one parent-offspring. In this case, the article on The Scouring of the Shire is quite legitimately also a spin-out from Reception of J. R. R. Tolkien#Literary criticism (where someone else had independently used the source 'Oberhelman 2006' [another of the Tolkien Encyclopedia entries] in relation to this topic). There are various ways (in terms of Wikipedia articles) to organise and arrange the literary criticism content and academic analysis, but for now I think we should go with how those writing on the topic (and familiar with the sources) are doing it. Carcharoth (talk) 10:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      I agree that something can go directly from thoughts to an article without existing within and being split from a main article under certain circumstances, but we're literally talking about a chapter of a book. Its literary significance doesn't particularly matter when that significance belongs to the book first and foremost. It's a preemptive decision you could argue for any major section of any featured article, but that would be pointless if they do not meet criteria for splitting them. This article has yet to reach a size where it would be cumbersome to attempt to fit it within the novel article, and the novel article has yet to reach a size where it cannot fit the information from the chapter article. This is the issue with these discussions, everyone is so gung-ho to "save" things that priorities are forgotten. TTN (talk) 11:59, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      You are prioritising how others should work on Wikipedia articles and advocating attempting to fit this material within the novel article rather than letting the current article work take its course? The emphasis here appears to be less on 'saving' things, rather the emphasis is on making the articles encyclopedic. That work is being done in the actual articles, not here. Carcharoth (talk) 12:11, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      Yes, because this article is akin to taking today's featured article and saying "Design and description of battleship Hyūga" should be split out for no particular reason. It's of similar size to the core content of the chapter article, and you could easily add in filler for context to bolster it even more. But what is the point when that's a core part of the topic, and it presents no size concerns? Your arguments no more justify this chapter article than they would that article. TTN (talk) 12:16, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      It's actually larger than the proposed target, in a completely different style, radically better cited, and on quite a different topic (Tolkien's most novelistic chapter), so basically it'd fit like a mattress on a bottle of wine. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:22, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      Agreed. After a merge, I'm sure that most of the text from the Scouring of the Shire would be lost due to undue weight (just as it was left out of the movie). Esowteric+Talk 12:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      You act as if there are not ways to reformat information, and you also act as if there wouldn't be larger analysis sections in which the current chapter sections could be included as part of said larger analysis.TTN (talk) 12:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

      I was just stating an opinion, as are others. I don't see any substantive changes here since March 2013. Esowteric+Talk 12:51, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

  TTN, that's the classic WP:SURMOUNTABLE fallacy (tinged, as someone else noted, with a big lump of IDONTLIKEIT). Not a deletion/merger rationale.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose, plenty of references and lots of continuing useful work by Chiswick Chap. Esowteric+Talk 11:20, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with Esowteric about the good work of CC upgrading this article. Halbared (talk) 22:19, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
• The situation may be changing, anyhow, with the three separate book articles perhaps being merged into the main LOTR article. See WP:Articles for deletion/The Fellowship of the Ring Esowteric+Talk 15:42, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm normally a huge fan of merging "fancruft", but this doesn't qualify. There's been literary-academic material written about the Scouring being, ultimately, the entire point of the whole story (i.e. an underclass of little peasants taking on revolution, following the lead of just a couple of their number breaking out of their scared stay-at-home mould); the omission of it from the Jackson film and several other adaptations, and pointed inclusion of it in some, like the 2000s stage play, have also attracted considerable notice; and even within the fictional plot, the events are significant, and stand out. Even has a proper name. There is no question this passes WP:GNG as a fictional topic that can support its own stand-alone article here, even if we are normally heavily inclined to merge away articles on chapters and and fictional events. This is just a noteworthy exception.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:29, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Thanks to Chiswick Chap's work, the article makes a good case for itself with a decent amount of sources and content. This stance may seem at odds with my push to merge the FotR/TT/RotK articles (see: Talk:The Lord of the Rings) but I'm not automatically opposed to LotR spin-off articles, I just think any spin-off needs to demonstrate that it has a clear reason to exist. WanderingWanda (talk) 04:41, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Notice of proposal to merge to The Lord of the Rings

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

The AfD suggesting merge/delete and redirect has closed, and another discussion about merging all three LotR volumes' articles into The Lord of the Rings has now opened at Talk:The Lord of the Rings#Proposed merge of The Fellowship of the Ring etc into The Lord of the Rings, as of February 4.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Plot summaries: the way forward?

Please see my proposal at Fellowship of the Ring.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:28, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

On reflection, since we are keeping these articles, which are on books, we must have plot summaries for them (otherwise, the articles are stuck at Start class as they're obviously incomplete). Since these are necessarily shared with the combined 3-volume book, I've made the 3 summaries into templates and included them where needed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:56, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Synopsis?

Here and at The Two Towers we should say that the synopsis occurs in some editions, not all...--Jack Upland (talk) 04:37, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:52, 4 September 2020 (UTC)