Talk:Tau Epsilon Phi/Archives/2010/October

Freemasonry

The following text has been altered in the main page to remove the reference to freemansonry.

...by ten Jewish Freemason men at Columbia University...

Discussions with Sid Sontag (our living historian) have given no context in which to base this claim, and it's removed unless someone can give a valid reference to this claim. TΓ704 Timmccloud (talk) 17:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The reference may have come from the fact that many greek orders have Freemasonry in their rituals. Of course, since rituals are secret, that make it a little difficult to cite sources, eh? --CompRhetoric (talk) 22:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

TEP National Website link on wiki.com

Expressing my disgust with the national website and how it shows this great organization is falling: Although there is a link on most local chapters' websites and on the wiki site, it usually is a let down when potential new members visit the site. I feel this organization should have a legitimate national website that is updated on a regular basis. After all, it is 2009. It should include news that is actually beneficial to other chapters and potentials, a way to contact/ communicate with the national grand council via email or message board for brothers, etc. There should be a brothers only section so that the brothers can download an electronic version of the pledge book, and various other documents. I could go on, but basically I am upset with the site because it deserves a face lift.

Also, I don't know how legitimate this website is (http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.tephq.org), but the tephq.org has a worth of about $2153.50 and it brings in a daily ad revenue of $2.95. Which tells me that there is potential to, with the increase of brothers, make money off of this site for the national hq. By selling TEP merchandise and adding an ad or two, the headquarters will have a great opportunity to make money. that's my two sense.

• Wiki's Tau Epsilon Phi site offers more information and a better design than the tephq site. If we are going to put our link on wiki.com then we should have a well designed website to back it. Israelschwarts (talk) 19:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• • Israel - post that site please! TΓ704 Timmccloud (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Decline

Without getting into original research, this article would benefit from some discussion of how the fraternity went from 138 chapters down to 25 (referenced on the chapter list talk page). Is this emblematic of the greek system in general or is something else at work? --CompRhetoric (talk) 00:39, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• It would, agreed, but we don't do original research on Wikipedia, and unless you can reference valid sources for this information, it will have to remain absent from the article. TΓ704 Timmccloud (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Article Neutrality / Legal Issues

There has been a significant edit war on the article, and I see that's it's calmed down somewhat. I believe that the neutrality issue has been mostly resolved, but the Legal Issues heading still troubles me. Mostly for two reasons;

• Hazing incidents unfortunately aren't that encyclopedic for a specific fraternity article, and no other fraternity article has such a prominent mention in it's article like ours. This would be much more relevant in the Wikinews.org section, not in the encyclopedia.
• Although the neutrality of the court case description is somewhat resolved, it's still more current events than encyclopedic. Even the title "Legal Issues" troubles me, even the section title seems biased against the fraternity.

I'm close to removing the entire "Legal Issues" section, due to these two issues, and I really don't want the edit war to start again - if it does happen, I will be reporting it to the admins and having the article protected, and possibly people blocked. So discuss. Convince me it's encyclopedic. TΓ704 Timmccloud (talk) 03:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that coverage of the hazing issue seems disproportionate, although it was my understanding that UF was one of the largest chapters, if not the largest. The civil suit may be current, but it is a substantial moment in the history of the organization. bd2412 T 23:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

It's been reported in a reliable source and therefore can be reported here. I've got nothing to do with TEP for or against and came here from the last report to the neutrality noticeboard. I've been keeping an eye on it and making sure that the writing is neutral and accurately reflects the sources. If other fraternities have had hazing incidents that got reported in the papers, it should be added to those articles, not removed from this one. Yworo (talk) 00:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

All fraternities have chapters that have isolated hazing incidents at some point. I struggle to see the encyclopedic significance of such an event in the context of a hundred year old organization. Short of an endemic problem, it seems disproportionate to mention it. bd2412 T 01:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Have other fraternities chapters been shut down and ordered to discontinue using the fraternity name over the incidents? I'm curious, I have no idea. Yworo (talk) 01:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Google "fraternity", "shut down", "hazing". The reports are extensive, but that's a problem of the fraternity system, not necessarily of any particular organization. bd2412 T 02:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The results of my search showed that hazing incidents are reported in the Wikipedia articles on Alpha Phi Alpha and Alpha Kappa Alpha. I suspect that they are mentioned in other articles as well, so the claim that no other fraternity article mentions them doesn't seem to be true. Yworo (talk) 02:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yup, a Wikipedia search shows that many of the articles on fraternal organizations mention hazing incidents along with a link to the newspaper article in which they were reported. I think it should stay based on that survey. Yworo (talk) 02:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys I edited the main article with a source from the NY Post Article dated 10/24/2010 by Boniello. I think it gives both sides of this issue which I think was lacking a little in the first article from the Gainsville Sun. I hope it makes it more neutral.TEPs4justice (talk) 13:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC)