Talk:Syrian Jews/Archive 2

Surnames section

This particular section is completely unsourced and includes unreliable information that currently is not substantiated in any way. It contains numerous inconsistencies and falsehoods. The section also doesn't serve any logical purpose which connects the material to the rest of the article. In other words, if we're reading an article on Chinese culture, we don't need a separate paragraph listing names like Li, Lu, Zhang, Chang, Wang etc. to give us an example of what Chinese names sound like. Same issue with an article on Spanish culture with a paragraph listing surnames such as Rodriguez, Sanchez, Gomez, Hernandez etc. Or if perhaps there's an article on American culture with a section listing names like Smith, Jones, Davis, Williams etc. We know what Chinese, Spanish and American surnames are, and sound like. There's no connection or use for that content if it doesn't relate to the subject matter for any reason. But that's besides the point. This section contains numerous falsehoods that don't even contain a single reputable reliable source, such as:

• Martinez & Lopez are not Syrian Jewish names. They're Latino in origin. There's not a single reputable reliable source to justify or indicate otherwise.
• Sassoon and Sasson are not variants of one another. They sound extremely similar, but there's not a familial connection between them whatsoever. Again, there's not a single reliable source to back this claim.
• Friedman and Goldman are not Syrian Sephardic names. They are Ashkenaz names. There is no connection between the Syrian community and people with the surname Friedman or Goldman. And again, absolutely no reliable sourcing provided to corroborate that.
• There are no people in the community with the last name Bozo. It sounds like a piece of vandalism that was inserted while nobody noticed. A bozo is a derogatory slang term; like calling someone an idiot. Not one reputable reliable source to prove that a family surname exists in the community with the title Bozo.
• Silvera and Sitt have no family connection at all. Silvera is not even a Sephardic name. It is an Ashkenaz name. No sourcing whatsoever to reference this falsehood.

These are just a few quick examples of the numerous and erroneous claims made in this section. Wikipedia policy is not to insert unsourced information, and then at a later point in time try to insert sourcing if it can be located. Unsourced information should never be inserted in the first place, plain and simple. Unsourced information is a form of WP:OR. Phranklin (talk) 13:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Please be assured that Lopez, Sasson, Goldman, Bozo, Silvera and Sitt are well known Syrian Jews of Aleppo origin.

Some of the Sassons spell their name Sassoon. See the NY Times on Rahmo Sassoon of Aleppo who built a Synagogue in Kobe, Japan.

Cantor Bozo is the official cantor of the Ades Synagogue in Jerusalem. There is a Silvera Synagogue in Jerusalem as was in Aleppo. The Congregation Bnei Yosef in Brooklyn is known as the Sitt Synagogue and the Sephardic Heritage Museum was also established by a Sitt.

The Syrian Jewry's heritage organization is a source that features this accurate list of Aleppo and Damascus Surnames. http://www.misham.co.il/index.php?s=geni1

109.67.21.220 (talk) 15:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Please see WP:SELFPUBLISH. The Wikipedia policy clearly states, Anyone can create a personal web page and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. Personal Websites are not acceptable as sources. Therefore, the person or people running this website who can be reached at mishamorg@gmail.com are not considered a reputable reliable source. The site is not connected to any reputable journalistic organization. It is a self published website. And again, there is no connection whatsoever between the material in the article and a phone book list of names to identify people of Syrian Jewish origin. It doesn't serve any logical purpose for a reader. That's the same reason we don't insert an Italian phone book list of names in an article for Italian culture, and the same reason we don't insert a Japanese phone book list of names for an article on Japanese culture. The only helpful thing I can suggest is, if you and some other editors are so adamant in including this material, then perhaps you can insert the link in the External Links section towards the bottom of the article. However, that section itself is also getting a little out of hand. See WP:LINKFARM. Phranklin (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Other brief comment I would also like to point out, that I stand by what I say when I mention that names like Goldman, Friedman, Feldman, Silvera etc. are Ashkenaz names. I believe the people who edit that private website fail to acknowledge the situation of intermarriage between the Ashkenaz community and the Sephardic community. Those names are variants of certain Ashkenaz names like Fried, Silver, Feld and Gold. There is no connection between these families and Syrian Sephardic families. If a male Ashkenaz Jew named Goldman married a female Sephardic jew named Dweck, it doesn't mean that Goldman is Syrian or Sephardic in nature. The origin of the Goldman name is Ashkenaz and European. Likewise, if a Russian Ashkenaz male named Pasternak married a Syrian Sephardic girl named Harari, then it doesn't mean that Pasternak is Syrian in origin. The editors of that website have a one dimensional field of view without taking those complexities into account. Phranklin (talk) 22:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

This comprehensive list was compiled and edited over the years by Syrian Jews who are familiar with their community. Walter P. Zenner's book states that among the Aleppo Jews, are found names like Goldman and Marcus. These along with the Piciotto and Silvera families from Livorno, Italy, had settled in Aleppo in the Eighteenth Century. I hope that you realize the importance to preserve this material, which means so much to us. 79.176.123.55 (talk) 23:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

What your saying doesn't disprove what I mentioned. That these families came from Europe and settled in the Middle East. Intermarriage occurs not just in today's time, but perhaps in the 18th century as well, like you pointed out. The point I was trying to make was that those families didn't originate in the Middle East, which you correctly noted. Syrian Sephardic culture goes much farther back than the 18th century. But regardless, this material cannot be inserted into the article for the reasons listed above. The article is not a White Pages telephone directory. It does not fit in with the content of the page. Secondly and most important, SELF PUBLISHED websites are not sufficient citations for inclusion into Wikipedia. As I said before, if you want to include it in the External Links section at the bottom of the page, you may do so, although I think there should be a consensus for that as well, since it violates the policy of LINK FARMS which the article seem to have a current issue with, for that segment of the article. Phranklin (talk) 00:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)