Talk:Superbone

Who is the inventor?

As of late 2006, the inventor for the superbone was changed from Dizzie Gillespie to Maynard Ferguson. Does anyone know who ACTUALLY invented the thing? The problem I have is that many of the other internet resources I find when searching "dizzie gillespie superbone" seem to crib heavily from earlier versions the Wikipedia article. -- Link to edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Superbone&diff=79783135&oldid=76905016

The Cambridge Companion to Brass Instruments (published in 1997) credits Ferguson:

https://books.google.com/books?id=jr4gAwAAQBAJ&dq=ellis+gillespie+superbone&source=gbs_navlinks_s

https://books.google.com/books?id=jr4gAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT272&dq=ellis+gillespie+superbone&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tOaLVKr0KIqKsQTW1IH4CA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ellis%20gillespie%20superbone&f=false

The attribution to Gillespie seems to come only from the original stub created in 2004, so it is likely someone's mismemory from music history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.43.86 (talk) 07:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Still a stub?

I just stumbled upon this article, and it seems to be fairly complete, i.e., not a stub. Does anyone who has contributed to this article think the stub template can go? Special-T 23:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Disagrement with Technique section

I've played the Euphonium, Baritone, Valve Trombone, and Slide Trombone for over 13 years, and now the TR395 Holton Superbone for over a year. I disagree strongly with what is written in the "Superbone Technique" section of this article. The Superbone's valves transpose wonderfully and easily. Notes normally played out in 6th and 7th postions can now be played all in the top positions (with valves depressed). This instrument is extremely versatile because of this and it instantly became my instrument of choice.
The appropriate valve is depressed according to how many steps below or above the original note you want to be. For example, 2nd position with the 2nd valve depressed is essentially then 3rd position. There might be some slight changes in intonation, but any trombone player knows how to listen and tweak his slide slightly to match pitch. It might be noted that the Superbone's slide positions appear to be different than a tenor trombone, but that is only due to the valves adding extra distance between the mouthpiece and the beginning of the slide. For example, where the bell ends on a tenor trombone is usually 3rd position, but that is 2nd position on the Superbone. This is a simple transition and the new slide positions can be learned quickly. Also, the 6th and 7th positions are quite usable, even with valves depressed.
I believe the person that wrote the "Superbone Technique" section may have never played a valved instrument of the same pitch, or a slide trombone.. one or the other. I wanted to get some feedback on this discussion page before I tried editing anything. Thanks hiredgeeks 07:20, 28 January 2007

I added the warning about tuning difficulties on 22nd June 2006. I'll just state my credentials, as they have been questioned - I'm 27, a semi-professional trombone/euphonium player who much prefers his day job to the vagaries of paid music-making. I've been playing the euphonium since I was 8, and the (double valve) bass trombone since I was 13, plus various other low brasses. I have successfully performed upon trombones pitched in various different keys (Eb and G usually, but not exclusively, in addition to the usual Bb and trigger combinations). I have some acquaintance with both slides and valves and the combination of the two.

Having addressed that, I don't agree with your assessment of the ease of mastering the many available combinations on a Superbone. I'll enumerate my points in reply:

1) There is a lot of difference between hitting a note wrong and "tweaking the slide" to bring it into tune and hitting it right first time. This is one difference between a bad and a good trombone player. The many combinations mean that you need to become, as I wrote, "an expert" to be confident of hitting each note in tune as you freely range across the valve and slide combinations.

2) Mathematically speaking, a slide that is long enough for 7 positions and only 7 positions when no extra valves are depressed is only long enough to reach 5 positions (a position being equal to a descent by a semitone) when enough valves are depressed to lower the pitch by 7 semitones. In fact, in this case, even the 5th position is likely to be too long for the slide because the combination of valves 1+2+3 when the valves don't compensate (as they don't on a Superbone) is already massively sharp without substantial slide adjustment. I wonder if what you are calling "6th and 7th positions with the valves depressed" are in fact in the same slide positions as 6th and 7th with no valves depressed? Or perhaps you are lipping these notes downwards a long way?

3) You write "Notes played out in 6th and 7th positions can all now be played in the top positions" (I've slightly reparsed that to make it make sense - let me know if I got it wrong). The much simpler Bb/F tenor trigger trombone also achieves this - and it has the advantage that you don't have to stick to one model which has a miniscule bore size, as the instrument has been subject to much more development.

Dave Taylor 15:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge into valve trombone

Does this article merit separate article status? There is definitely a lack of references and the instrument is vanishingly uncommon. I've summarised most of this article over on valve trombone § Hybrid slide-valve trombones, where we discover that the Superbone by Maynard/Holton was not very different from 19th century examples made by Besson and Conn. I'd like to propose we redirect this article there instead.—Jon (talk) 03:55, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

No; the superbone is not a valve trombone (a valve trombone does not have a slide) and thus it merits its own page. It is not common but I feel 'vanishingly uncommon' is overstating it; a quick google shows several modern manufacturers and resellers. The tromba marina, Wagner tuba and crwth are all uncommon but all have current manufacturers and performers; you wouldn't suggest deleting their wiki pages just because they were uncommon. Instead the superbone page should be improved. To start that improvement I have added a 'later developments' section mentioning modern, larger bore superbones. The description of the Schagerl instrument has been lifted from the valve trombone page but I feel it sits better on this page. 87.112.0.102 (talk) 01:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Interesting and fair, and thanks for commenting (it's been very quiet lately so it's nice to get feedback!) What do you think about this article discussing "Hybrid trombones" in general, includes the superbone and the valide trombone as well, effectively replacing the current "Hybrids" section from the valve trombone article?—Jon (talk) 02:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, you may like to weigh in on the recent discussions on the Talk:Types of trombone article.—Jon (talk) 02:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)