Talk:Sumo/Archive 1

Sumo As a Rigged Sport

Surely some space ought to be devoted to the allegations of, among others, Steven Levitt (author of Freakonomics) that sumo is partially rigged, and the evidence he provides to support that claim?

Macrons

Is the "o" at the end of Sumo a long o or a short o? WhisperToMe 04:42, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's long, so you might transliterate it as "sumou". --Auximines 08:00, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Recently, macrons were added to the Sumo article. I reverted these changes as soon as I saw them, and I did so for multiple reasons:

1. The changes were too selective (Tokyo, Osaka, Ozeki, Asashoryu, etc. were all left unchanged; only one instance of 'sumo' was changed).
2. I see no precedent on Wikipedia to support the addition of macrons to Roman representations (romaji) of Japanese words (especially when a particular form without macrons is already in heavy general usage).
3. Some of the changes were incorrect. Dohyo is not 'douyo' but rather 'dohyou' (when written out hiragana character by character). The 'uu' in Makuuchi is not an extended vowel but rather the ending of one part of the word (Maku) and the beginning of another (uchi).

I suggest the macrons remain removed from the article for the time being and their possible addition can be discussed here. --R. Durham Evans 14:09, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Some of these changes are incorrect. Please read: Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles WhisperToMe 03:06, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, in the case of Tokyo, etc, they do not need macrons as "Tokyo" is a standard English spelling. WhisperToMe 03:08, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the link to the style manual -- I was not aware it existed. It does indeed clear up some things.

The change you made to 'dohyo' is still incorrect (it is not "do-yo" but rather "do-hyo"), so I have fixed that. However, the style manual says the properly romanized form (i.e. with macrons) should only be used the first time the word appears for clarification and in the form of "English (Kanji rōmaji)". Your changes do not fit this usage.

I reverted the change to 'maku-uchi' because I see no need for the hyphen. The style manual makes no mention of hyphen usage, but the common usage is to separate the main part of a word from its suffix/prefix (e.g. "Fuji-san"). "Makuuchi" is short for "Makunouchi" and is a whole word. Hence, there is no need for a hyphen. Also, "Makuuchi" is the standard romanization as used by the Nihon Sumo Kyokai.

As for the 'Tokyo' comparison, it was made because 'sumo' is a standard English spelling as well, hence I did not see a need for the macron. --R. Durham Evans 04:27, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You were quite correct to revert sumo. Dohyō does need a macron, although admittedly not where Whisper put it (I'm afraid he does this sort of thing a lot). I was going to add the kanji for the various terms, but I'm not sure if that would actually be particularly helpful here. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 09:34, 2004 Aug 19 (UTC)

Yes, that change was my mistake. I focused on the "doh" without considering the "hyo" x_x WhisperToMe 03:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm back. My question is how can we make clear in the article that "makuuchi" is maku/uchi and not makūchi? WhisperToMe 04:02, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think it is already plenty clear. There is no reason to divide the two u's up (would you write the verb 'omou' as 'omo-u' to keep people from thinking it was 'omō'?) And as I have stated before, "makuuchi" is the standard form. --R. Durham Evans 04:29, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps mentioning (The word is NOT makūchi) would be a good idea if neither dashes or apostrophes are appropriate for placing in, because there are anime fans and casual users who would read "makuuchi" thinking it was "makūchi". (Anime fans, as you know, tend to use wapuro in naming) WhisperToMe 00:26, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---The difference between makuuchi and maku-uchi is really academic. Anyone who has listened to Japanese people talk with any speed will see that they will often pronounce supposedly distinct words such as maku-uchi as makuuchi. Kotooshu is a perfect example. Are the announcers saying Koto-oshu or Kotooshu? Sounds like both. Does it matter? -from occasional contributer ---Actually, Koto-ōshū has a short "o" followed by a long one: a triple-length "o." Interestingly, there are actual examples of Japanese people using a "w" to represent successive "u"s. One such is Katswra. I haven't noticed their name in ten or fifteen years, so maybe they're out of business (or I've become able to ignore it), but they used to do something automotive, and had their logo plastered on sporty cars. But of course I'm not suggesting we write makwchi. Anyhow, look at this to see a related discussion. Fg2 00:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The talk page sounds like a good place for that --- glad you mentioned it!Fg2 01:37, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

Link to amateur wrestling

This article links to amateur wrestling, but since sumo is a professional sport (as well as an amateur sport), the link seems odd. Of course, pro wrestling is even farther from the mark. Can anyone see a better article to link to, or would it be best to remove the link?

No, that's where it should link. Read the article in question. I think amateur wrestling is simply misnamed, but sadly I can see that being common usage. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 17:35, 2004 Aug 19 (UTC)

Misnamed, I agree. Probably Wrestling (sport) would be more appropriate, but there are a lot of links...Fg2 23:18, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

Dohyou

'dohyou' is a specific word for a sumo ring, not a generic term for 'arena'. See the Japanese wiki article on dohyou: [1]

Can't read that, but nice of you to change it back. I got that crazy idea from my dictionary. --Marco 20:41, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well it basically says that a dohyou is a lump of earth of which sumo is fought :) I double-checked it with a Japanese friend. --Auximines 22:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Personally I trust the dictionary more, but it looks like I'm alone there. --Marco 06:29, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Samurai?

The recent edits added the text "Professional sumo can trace its roots back to the Edo Period in Japan as a form of sporting entertainment. The original wrestlers were probably samurai who needed to find an alternative form of income." Can anyone cite a credible source for samurai wrestlers? It seems unlikely. Fg2 21:38, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

Samurai or farmer, which is more likely? --Philip Nilsson 13:01, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Whoever has the body—that would have been my guess (more below). Fg2 22:46, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Samurai

The Edo period ushered in a period of peace and stability in Japan. Many rank and file samurai effectively lost their jobs as retainers to a lord usually because he could not afford their upkeep, and if they did they usually could not find another master. They became ronin or masterless samurai. It is one argument that some of these people formed into groups giving wrestling and other displays of strength. These displays, which were often sponsored to help some form of local cause, did not have a good reputation at first with unauthorised fights and even deaths. However they eventually were formalised and became respectable, and in due course led to the professional organisations being formed. Personally I am sure that there may have been others, such as farmers etc. as well, but certainly the ronin group were a major influence. Nashikawa 19:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I knew about ronin, but had never heard that many of them became rikishi. My guess would have been that wrestlers were for the most part people who had the body for it, and could have come from any class (yes, including farmers), but I wouldn't write my guess in an article. Incidentally, the article 大相撲 in the Japanese Wikipedia is one of this week's articles selected for strengthening, so if you speak Japanese, you might want to contribute to it. I don't see any mention of samurai or ronin there, so it would be a valuable addition. Fg2 22:44, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Since reading the comments I have gone back through a number of English language books I have on Sumo, my Japanese is not quite good enough to read easily. The three I would consider most authoratative (Grand Sumo by Lora Sharnoff, Sumo, a Pocket Guide by Walter Long, and Sumo Watching a translation from Tsutomu Kakuma) all mention Professional Sumo's origins and the masterless Samurai issue, so I am not guessing here. Similarly there are more details on the issues related to event control issues specifically mentioned in the Walter Long book, including a period when sumo displays were banned in Edo. The stories also all fit with my understanding of Japanese history of the time. One method that the Shogunate used to keep control of the daimyo was to attempt ensure they were spending sufficient money that they could not afford to destabilise the ruling family from which the Shogun were drawn. One classic example of this is the Toshogu shrine at Nikko where all the lords were expected (read forced) to contribute lavishly. Many lords ended up in debt. This policy meant that in many cases lords were unable to retain as many warrior class subordinates (or samurai) and effectively some were let go. It is also the case that most lords would have held and trained significant numbers of samurai during the period of instability preceeding the victory of Tokugawa Ieyasu. Clearly in the period that followed such numbers would not be necessary. For a samurai who lost their master, it was difficult to get a new position with one's high class status in this climate. Furthermore, many samurai class people who retained their lords, were actually fairly impoverished. Some took to making things such as, for example polished cherry bark artifacts in Kakunodate in Tohoku, and umbrellas elsewhere to suplement their income. These "high class" art-like production activities allowed them to make a basic living without getting involved with tasks innappropriate to their class. Thus rank and file samurai class individuals did not have an easy time of it and it would be easy to see how strong individuals in the category would be attracted to a life in sumo, which as a martial art would be tough but at least an acceptable way of life. Nashikawa 20:00, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

Sumo has roots in rituals of old?

I cant exactly remember where I first read/heard it, but doesnt Sumo has something to do with old fertility rituals, (possibly Shinto), from long before Edo?

Rituals? Quite right. See second paragraph of article. As for fertility, I don't know. Fg2 10:46, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

On a similar note, it would be nice to include an estimate on the origin of Sumo. The article points to the Edo period as the source of modern professional Sumo, but I've heard the sport is incredibly old, possibly B.C. --Feitclub 01:18, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

I have added a brief origins section but am not an expert on this area. What is certain is that pre Edo period sumo was not the same as sumo today, as the belts/loincloths probably did not allow the belt grip techniques of today and the concept of a ring was still in development. Sumo and Shinto are linked in all sorts of ways. It is not possible to give a definitive start to sumo as it certainly evolved out of pre-written history forms of wrestling. One of the first histories of Japan even has the gods carrying out wrestling matches. I would certainly believe that the roots go back to BC times, and with no written data to go on, its roots will always be lost there in my view. Nashikawa 23:58, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I knew it was a lot older than the Edo period, but the article didn't go back any further. Now it alludes to a truly ancient history. --Feitclub 04:24, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

I recently heard that in Kansai sumo was primarily Daimyo challenging each other with their best fighters whereas in Edo, where the city was still developing, Sumo was used to raise money to build Shrines. I also heard that Oda Nobunaga was a "sekkachi" guy and didn't like the long drawn-out sumo so he made the ring small and changed the rules to the modern rule of any part of your body other than the bottom of your feet touching the ground constitutes a loss. I don't have references and I heard this from my Sumo Otaku hairdresser. Has anyone else heard of any of this? --Joi 02:04, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Genekirikishiichiran

What is Genekirikishiichiran? --Auximines 21:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe it is meant to be "Genki Rikishi Ichi Ran" which I think means "currently active top ranked wrestlers" or something similar. There is a clear problem here to be sorted out.Nashikawa 00:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"ichiran" means "list"; in the Japanese Wikipedia, loads of articles have "ichiran" in the title just like many English WP articles are "list of". So if the article were written by a native speaker of English the title would probably be "List of active sumo wrestlers." Fg2 21:10, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

The criteria for winning are fairly straightforward...

Famous last words? Shini-tai boggles my mind every time, personally speaking; and aren't we also missing the case of lift-out techniques where the lifter is allowed to himself step out? (For which I can't recall the correct terminology.) Alai 06:28, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've thought for some time that this section is unnecessarily long. Items 3-5 in the list are very rare, and doubtless there are other ways to be disqualified (not turning up, for example). Another exception is that a wrestler may win despite touching down first if he touched down in order to prevent injury to his opponent - Konishiki did this a few years ago. How about simplifying this section to keep only the first two items in the list, possibly with a note to the effect that there are also other ways to be disqualified. A detailed discussion of shini-tai, undone mawashi, etc. belongs further down the article or in a separate article. --Auximines 09:37, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you view re length and balance also and have modified the text to emphasise the main methods, whilst leaving comment on the more unusual methods. What do you think? Nashikawa 18:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Much better, I think: gives a better impression of what's usual, without claiming to give an exhaustive case-analysis. Alai 18:58, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree, it's a great improvement! --Auximines 22:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I notice that the section is called Winning a Sumo bout, but the contents describe how to lose a sumo bout. MikeWilson 01:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Techniques, etiquette, naming

I was wondering if it would be appropriate to put some form of a guide involving the various strategies involved in sumo. For instance, slap-outs/downs, push-outs, and throws are generally the most common types of strategy, even moreso simplified to pusher-thruster and mawashi-type sumo. Perhaps that would also go into sumo etiquette perhaps? For instance, a henka (a step-aside at the tachiai followed by a nice push down to the back of the head) is legal in the rules, but very against etiquette, and can hurt chances at promotion.

There is also the discussion of match-fixing which can be pretty well proven (there is an economic study by an economist at the University of Chicago found here that discusses the issue in quite a bit of depth, plus there is the frequency of articles complaining about the issue).

Should these appear in a separate article? Or can they be inserted into this one?

Finally, I was debating inserting the proper Japanese next to each of the romanizations in kanji, because they aren't impossible to understand to an extent even for people who don't know Japanese. Because of the extent of shared kanji within sumo (like 関脇　関取　大関), I think they could be a useful inclusion. You also would have benefits for those who watch sumo in Japan but don't understand what all the kanji that pop on the screen mean...

--Joshua Maciel 04:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi Joshua, I think the techniques deserve another article, since there are so many of them. Would you like to start one? Match-fixing might or might not develop to become extensive enough for an article of its own. Serious allegations deserve to be somewhere, and the main article on sumo might be appropriate for it, or separate. Regarding kanji, my personal feeling is that we should not include kanji for terms that have their own articles. For example, the sumo article has a link to sekiwake, and so the kanji are just one click away. Even gumbai has an article! Since the kanji are so easy to find out, I don't think we need to duplicate them here. I agree with you that they're useful and beneficial! But I think having them in one place is enough. Here's another thought: maybe Wikipedia or Wiktionary or Wikibooks would benefit from a sumo dictionary. It could have the romanized term, the kanji, and a definition (which of course people could contribute to). If it's in a different Wiki, the Wikipedia article could have a link to it so that people could find it easily to read it and contribute too. A lot of people would really appreciate it! Fg2 07:06, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I got started on filling in kanji for the sumo-related terms that didn't have them yet. And I guess that with summer vacation upon us, I could start a guide of the various techniques involved, though it will take a while to get them ALL done, as they should have pictures and whatnot, and it will require a tad bit of Japanese research to get said photos and whatnot.

Sounds like a good way to spend a few days of the summer actually. Very splendid. And I think that I'll start with a corruption section in the main sumo section around professional sumo, just to bring it up, because it is pretty prevalent, and it's interesting and beneficial in understanding sumo. I can add it with a bunch of information on how much sumo wrestlers make and the method of acquiring cash, and the various schemes for it and whatnot.

Thanks for the comments. --Joshua Maciel 07:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I just want to reinforce the interest expressed in a section on technique. That's actually what I came to the article for, and although I'm glad to have learnt about the organizational side of the sport, I'm still hungry. --Wegesrand 13:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Women in Sumo UPDATED

I notice that the current article has nearly no mention of women in sumo, either in a historical or modern context. As one of the relatively few remaining sports with nearly no female participation at the professional level (for traditional reasons), this seems like something important to mention. I could put something together based on some web resources ([2], [3], [4], [5], [6]), but maybe this topic would be more delicately handled by an expert on the subject. If no one else wants to do it, I'll try and put together a brief section this week. -- JRP 05:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Please go ahead and knock yourself out with it. Since you seem to have read the most about it, you should be the one to blaze the trail forward. You may, however, want to make it a separate page perhaps, since sumo is so traditionally male, and that anyone searching for sumo will most likely be searching for the information presented above. Putting in a mention that sumo is an all-male sport (at least professionally) and linking to another article will allow you to present all the information without having to stick in semi-relevant information to the main article.

But I'm no expert on wiki etiquette, but it would just seem to make sense methinks. Then you could link it to categories such as women's sports and whatnot as well.

-Joshua Maciel 06:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Though there was talk of this, it seems noone added anything about women, I put in a paragraph at the end of the Pro Sumo section. I tried to keep it balanced and to the point. Hope everyone approves. Malnova 01:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

How do Sumo wrestlers gain weight?

How do Sumo wrestlers gain so much weight? Are people selected to be Sumo wrestlers based on genetic predisposition for gaining weight? In addition, I'm curious when in its history the large bodyweights became an important factor in Sumo. I'm interested in knowing more how weight plays a factor in Sumo, since it is rarely mentioned in the article.

Sumotori gain weight due to muscle gain and fat gain. Muscle is gained through intensive training and often moderate weight lifting. Fat is gained by training in the morning on an empty stomach (metabolism is lower, so less fat is burned off), eating a large fat-heavy lunch (chanko), followed often by a nap (to allow the fat to be absorbed into the body before it can be used).

Looking back several decades, most rikishi were rather slim. Yokozunas Futabayama and Taiho, for example, did not have large amounts of fat (although Taiho got a lot larger towards the end of his career). More recently, however, there has been a trend towards heavier wrestlers. The most obvious examples are the Hawaiians Konishiki, Musashimaru, and Akebono, but also Takanosato and Onokuni (both Japanese) were rather large.

In terms of the importance of weight, a larger wrestler generally has greater balance, but much reduced speed. A lot of times the larger wrestlers tend to rely on their size rather than their technique, often using either oshi/tsukidashi or yorikiri kimarite. Technique and strength, I think, are more important than size alone. A good example is Asashoryu who is not all that large (though he has been gaining a lot of weight recently) but is clearly dominating. Another good example was Mainoumi who was so technically skilled he could beat wrestlers like Konishiki and Musashimaru despite being 1/4 their size.

R. Durham Evans 23:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Mainoumi was incredible. His quickness and technique were just unstoppable. I remember one bout, I believe against Konishiki or Akebono (either way, a clear mismatch in size), when the two rikishi were locked up in yotsu, and in the blink of an eye, Mainoumi ducked under his aite's arm and executed a lightning quick sukuinage or shitatenage and won very cleanly. As good as they are, I'd like to see Hakuho or Ama pull off that kind of technique against a guy Kotonowaka's size. -Tadanisakari 00:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

On a recent TV appearance Asashoryu admitted that before major matches to bulk up he eats an average of 十五、二十人前 (15 to 20 times what an average man would eat) per meal. He also said that he has to be careful not to eat to much because it becomes very hard to see when his face gets too bloated, and then preceded to smile thus completely blocking out his eyes. Just in case you wanted to know : ).   freshgavin TALK    05:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction regarding possibility of a draw

The article says "The gyoji is obliged, even in bouts too close to call, to authoritatively decide a winner." but soon afterwards states "Further deadlock can lead to a draw, which is an exceptionally rare result." --David B.

Done. It was the order in which the first paragraph explained the decision process that appears to contradict the later paragraph. Since noone had "fixed" this yet, I went in and "fixed" the order a little bit to make this more clear. Malnova 02:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

It's still just as unclear to me. The first sentence now says "The gyoji is obliged, even in bouts too close to call, to immediately designate a winner", so the words "authoritatively decide a winner" have been changed to "immediately designate a winner". And the second sentence now says "Further deadlock can lead to a draw, which is an even rarer result", so the words "exceptionally rare result" have been changed to "even rarer result". It still reads like a contradiciton to me in that at one point it says that a winner must be designated, and at another point it says that a draw is possible. --David B.

The gyoji can only designate a preliminary winner if one (or both) wrestlers have been knocked off their feet or out of the circle. IF they stay deadlocked for several minutes with noone being knocked over or out, then there is the apparent possibility of a draw. Which is just what it says, I thought. Anyway, I went in and tried to make the apparent contradiction more clear. Let me know what you think. Malnova 00:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Adding the word "preliminary" gets rid of the apparent ambiguity, but what a bizarre requirement! -- David B.

Yes, it is rather bizarre. It is also a heavy burden on the gyoji, who is said to lose a little face whenever he gets a judgment wrong, which is of course impossible to always avoid. Malnova 22:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, draws are not given out in modern sumo. I've never seen a second mizu-iri, but I imagine if the bout goes for three four-minute periods, the rikishi might be just too tired to go on... However, I believe it's true that every bout in modern sumo has a winner and a loser. Can anyone reading this page confirm whether a hikiwake draw has ever occured in the modern era? Tadanisakari 08:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Tegata

I put together a little tegata section that I want to put just before the amateur sumo entry. Is this okay with regular contributors here? Malnova 4 December 2005

Tegata sounds like an interesting contribution! Please do include it, at least somewhere. Fg2 09:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I am happy for a section on sumo memorabilia, including tegata, although another possibility is for a separate page on the topic. If it expands significantly this would be best in my view, whereas at its current length it is okay in the main article. Nashikawa 15:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

What are the arguments for/against "hand shape" and "hand print"? -- Mike Wilson 23:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

"Hand shape" is a literal translation of the two kanji in the phrase; "hand print" is a literal translation of the meaning of the compound word. Although I didn't look at a dictionary prior to changing from "shape" to "print," now that you asked, I looked it up in Obunsha's Handy English-Japanese Japanese-English Dictionary, a little pocket dictionary. The first definition they give for "tegata" is "hand print." They do not give "hand shape," although a bigger dictionary might.

This is sort of like trying to translate the word "manufactured" into a foreign language. The literal meanings of the Latin roots might lead one to conclude that the word means "hand-made," but the literal meaning of the modern word itself is quite distinct from those of the Latin roots, and usually means "machine-made," often specifically in distinction to "hand-made." Fg2 01:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Kenkyusha's big green says "a hand print". "Hand print" seems more easily understood in isolation. -- Mike Wilson 03:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The literal meaning of the kanji for tegata is hand shape, hence the use of the word "literal". The fact that it is a hand print and means so is perfectly understood from the explanation following. If you look thru the other "literal" definitions of the words used in this article you will see the same kind of thing, such as a torinaoshi meaning, literally, to "take and fix". If it is going to be an issue, we could just take out the the literal reference itself, as the explanation following explains what it means anyway.

memorabilia

It should be noted that most box seat and "tsuna-kaburi" (front row cushion seats) available to normal fans are sold through the tea houses. The tea house sell a package with the ticket and the souvenirs. The actual price charged for the package is much higher than the face-value of the ticket (the one time I treated myself to this it was around 3-4 times if my memory serves me correct). Thus the souvenirs are not included in the ticket price quoted by the sumo association. However, with few exceptions it is difficult to obtain the best seats without getting the whole package through one of the tea houses! (It is possible this has changed in more recent years as sumo attendances have dwindled). Also in my fairly limited experience the souvenirs provided by the teahouses were not items that one could obtain through the sumo shop. Usually they are a little better in quality in my view and the designs were differnt. Nashikawa 22:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

In my edit (yes it was mine, didn't see I wasn't logged in, sorry) I was trying to clarify that there is more than one way to get sumo memorabilia because your edit made it seem as if that was the only way to get memorabilia. I have no doubt that souvenirs given out thru tea houses are higher quality. If you can find a better way to word it, please go ahead, or I might take a crack at it. Malnova 4 December 2005

order of the article sections

Nashikawa, I agree with your point about the ordering of the "comparisons to other martial arts" section, and after taking a look again, I think the comparisons section should be placed last (before references). It seems it would be the least incongrous there, and it would make a nice sum-up for the article. Malnova 20:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me! Nashikawa 12:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.sumotalk.net/ sumotalk

Please note that the wikilink

• sumotalk

is inactive, at least on my computer, and I supsect many others judging by the revert battle going on here. "" can you please check the link's web address carefully and ensure that it is fully active before including it on this page. Can I also suggest that you follow the rules here and have a discussion about the issues rather than continuously overriding the deletions of various people. Admittedly it would be best if people gave their reasoning for deleting the link, but in any case it would be best if "" could add to the disucssion here before readding the link...Nashikawa 12:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I have just checked and the correct weblink is sumotalk.com, not sumotalk.net. I have added the link back in with the corrected version. The website is a sumonews one and seems appropriate in that context.Nashikawa 12:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Though this site has a news section, the majority of the content is opinion/commentary.

Does that make it unsuitable for inclusion? A website with commentary and opinion on a sport seems ok to me (as long as it is good and up-to-date). (PS can you please remember to sign your talk contributions using ~~~~. This will give a name and date/time stamp for your contribution.) Nashikawa 22:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

International Sumou

I've read at least one article about sumou's growing appeal to non-Japanese wrestlers -- primarily Hawai'ians and Mongols, but also whites. There's even been talk of making it an Olympic sport. It's kind of a big issue both because it's unusual (sumou being a quintessentially Japanese pursuit) and because some authorities have decried the foreign influence. Isn't this a worthy issue to include in here? Brutannica 04:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

As long as it's substantiated and well integrated into the article, I don't see why not. Malnova 09:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Minimum Weight

Does anyone know the minimum weight for a sumo wrestler?

75 kg (165 lb) for seniors, with a minimum height of 173 cm (5 ft 8 in). 70 kg (154 lb) and 170 cm (5 ft 7 in) for juniors (under 18). I think Mainoumi was only 170 cm (5 ft 7 in), but gained the extra height required with a silicone implant placed under his scalp.

Takanohana

The recent info added about Takanohana et al is really info for their individual articles, as the info is not about Sumo directly per se USER:MALNOVA

I agree and have deleted the text. Both Taka and Waka have their own pages, which are linked and that is the place for such detail Nashikawa 22:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yen

And how much is a Yen? The salary section told me nothing. --Striver 18:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Added a wikilink to the currency page -- this includes a dollar - yen exchange history, although it looks like it could be updated... Nashikawa 22:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Sumo names

There is some discussion on the Asashoryu talk page about whether wrestler pages should be given as family name first as most are at the moment or given as given name first which arguably conforms to the manual of style. If you have a view on this please look at the discussion and add an opinion, as what is decided here will probably have to become the standard for all sumo wrestler pages. Nashikawa 22:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sumo Rankings

Could someone add a section as to what the rankings descending from Yokozuna are? I think that'd be appropriate for this article. (Stuey 182 01:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Who fights who?

The Professional Sumo tournaments section does not seem to say anything about who fights who. I understand this is a bit of a smoke filled room process with lots of discussions of the merits of the fighters and various match ups. Can any information on this be added? crandles 19:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Added a paragraph -- what do you think.. Nashikawa 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a very small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 21:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sumo Rules

Does anybody have any more information about the rules used in a sumo match? Are there any more rules than the ones listed in the article? For example, is it a rule to touch the ground to start the bout, or is that more of a custom? More inside would be appreciated. Sneeka2 09:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

New external link

I think it could be a good idea to add a link to the non-commercial website www.sumo.it in italian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.208.36.89 (talk) 21:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Umm...this is the English wikipedia. --Auximines 21:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Answers

I have answers to most of the Sumo wrestling questions you have! Just Go to edit this page and then post them below this and I will check this page frequently and answer your questions! Thank You, Heaphy

No, people shouldn't do that. This is for discussing edits to the article, not a general discussion forum on the subject. If there's anything from Wikipedia's articles on Sumo you feel is lacking, you should edit them to correct that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review recommending delisting

The article is quite informative, but fails a number of GA criteria, in my opinion. I'm recommending for delisting. Please visit the review page to support or oppose. Bradford44 19:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The criteria for GA status are stabilized and higher than they once were. I promoted the article to A class from GA and was the one who suggested it for FA review which it failed for essentially the same reasons that GA requires. I have demoted the article to GA (recind my A promotion) but will wait for consensus before going further.Peter Rehse 04:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Since there were several supporting and no dissenting opinions I've delisted Sumo as a Good article. Below is the comments regarding shortcommings with the numbers refering to Wikipedia:What is a good article?.

• 1(a), because it is plagued by informal prose and one sentence paragraphs, especially throughout sumo#Professional Sumo (大相撲 Ōzumō).
• 1(b), for example, the article begins by explaining how to win a match, followed by how a match begins and how the ring is set up, followed by the history of the sport, then into how the sport is professionally organized. Also, some sections need to be divided into subsections. Also, several subsections are inappropriately titled.
• 1(c), the article greatly suffers from failure to adhere to WP:MOS-JP, as it uses many inconsistent methods to present, define, and translate foreign terms, and breaks various rules regarding usage of Japanese characters.
• 1(d) a number of technical terms should be better explained, and used less often.
• 2(b) this is a 41k article with only 8 inline citaions. Many large sections are entirely unreferenced - this alone should be sufficient for delisting.

Bradford44 19:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Retirement ceremony

Does anyone have any info about sumo retirement ceremonies Chris Ssk 01:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I think I could write a piece about it. As soon as I get done referencing various sumo bios. Kaiketsu 00:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

health?

Some of these people can be really fat... is that healthy? Some info on there strength and health conditions? --Colinstu 04:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Their body mass is made up of both a lot of fat and a lot of muscle. Their constant exercise and strength training pretty much counteracts most of the problems they'd otherwise experience with their weight, and their diet, while very high in calories, is very low in fat (mostly carbs and proteins) which limits cardiovasvular problems. Their high strength limits the joint and mobility issues which would otherwise be associated with their weight. Mmost sumo wrestlers are considered in great health, significantly better than the average for Japanese. However retired wrestlers can start to have problems later in life when they're no longer able to exercise as strenuously as before... they tend to have problems with diabetes, high blood pressure, and the typical problems usually associated with obesity later in life, and their overall life expectancy is about 10 years less than the overall norm for Japanese males (about 60 to 65 usually). 24.8.252.164 (talk) 01:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

sumo technique video

This is a video explaining sumo technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t1gFeIXOtI

Should a link be added?

133.11.95.55 12:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The freakonomics section should be removed. This theory has been discredited.

I agree that the Freakonomics section should be removed, but what about the theory has been discredited? If it has, perhaps that should be added to the Freakonomics entry? Jrhoadley 17:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Individual Wrestler Tournament Info

Hello, I have been toying with different ways to put individual wrestler's Makuuchi tournament wins on their individual articles. I started out with "succession boxes", but this is cumbersome and not very informative. Now I am trying out a table set up that shows the 6 basho a year system, and lists a wrestler's championships. I have done 3 rikishi so far, but the best example of what it looks like is Asashoryu because he has so many wins. Anyway, though my original idea was just to show basho wins in an easy to read format that shows the basho system, I realized that empty boxes (no yusho) could also filled with a wrestler's rank and win/loss record for each tournament (which would necessitate changing the section name to Tournament Performance or the like) . Anybody interested in making such section/tables for more wrestlers articles and/or expanding and improving the tables I have devised? I would appreciate the help. Thanks.Malnova 21:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Fantastic! And yes, the boxes for basho where the rikishi didn't win the yusho should show their w-l record and sansho awarded. It might be interesting to show kensho as well, but that might not always be available.

I'll allow some more time for discussion on this, and then get to work on a template. You might not want to bother with adding this to more articles until there's discussion on the format, so as to avoid going back and changing them all.

I'm pasting Asashoryu's table in here for easy reference. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

	January	March	May	July	September	November
	(Tokyo)	(Osaka)	(Tokyo)	(Nagoya)	(Tokyo)	(Kyushu))
2001	W Maegashira #12 (9-6)	E Maegashira #6 (9-6)	W Komusubi (8-7) O	E Komusubi (7-8)	W Maegashira #1 (10-5) F☆	E Komusubi (10-5) F
2002	W Sekiwake (8-7)	W Sekiwake (11-4) O	W Sekiwake (11-4) F	E Sekiwake (12-3) O	E Ozeki (10-5)	E Ozeki (14-1)
2003	E Ozeki (14-1)	W Yokozuna (10-5)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna E (5-5-5)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (12-3)
2004	E Yokozuna (15-0)	E Yokozuna (15-0)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (9-6)	E Yokozuna (13-2)
2005	E Yokozuna (15-0)	E Yokozuna (14-1)	E Yokozuna (15-0)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (14-1)
2006	E Yokozuna (11-4)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (1-2-12)	E Yokozuna (14-1)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (15-0)
2007	E Yokozuna (14-1)	E Yokozuna (13-2)	E Yokozuna (10-5)	x	x	x

• The wrestler's East/West designation, rank, and win/loss record are listed for each tournament.
• A third figure in win-loss records represents matches sat-out during the tournament (usually due to injury)

Pink Box=Tournament Championship

F= Outstanding Performance Prize

O= Fighting Spirit Prize

T= Technique Prize

☆= Number of Gold Stars.

I highly appreciate your enthusiasm Csernica! I was going to fill out 2007's boxes but I thought it was better with no boxes as it emphasized they haven't been held yet. But this point is trivial. The rest of your recommendations (adding sansho etc.), are all great. Malnova 23:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It's possible to mark them out in some other way, by coloring them gray for example. It's just that tables look funny when they're not completely laid out. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't keep myself from working on this. I re-pasted in my new template scheme for tournment boxes above. Opinions are welcome.Malnova 15:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that I'm all that enthusiastic -- you're doing all the good work here.

Just a few thoughts. I think we probably want to stick with a standard font size or smaller. When you get to rikishi like Kaio who've been in makuuchi since the dinosaurs roamed the earth, it will get a bit cumbersome. That will also allow more information to fit inside each cell. We don't want to get too crowded. (But not all the text has to be the same size either.)

A color scheme that's too complex may end up confusing the reader. Since at most only a handful of rikishi are awarded sansho each basho, it might not be too much trouble to just list them by abbreviation (with a key in the caption?) inside the cells. With a template this can be made relatively simple, since layout will be handled automatically.

I'll try to get a start on the template today. It will be a set of templates similar to that for succession boxes with a start, data lines, and end, since that's the easiest way to handle tables of varying size.

How do you like gold-colored gold stars? ●○✯✮✭✪★☆ Meh, it's a thought. Gold doesn't show up well against a white background, but a black background looks too ominous. There are other choices for the stars as shown. They officially use circles for shiroboshi and kuroboshi, so maybe? Just an experiment, so take it or leave it. I don't know that I'm all that crazy about it myself. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

As I suggested on Malnova's talk page...The boxes are great but needs to be "deflated" ;) Kaiketsu 00:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm....well it would be better to cut the colours for the sansho. Just add a letter instead. Would be too many colour combos. For example: Gino + Kanto = yellow, Gino + Kanto + Shukun = brown.. etc. lots of many possible combos...Though not many rikishi win even 2 sansho in one basho it still would be irritating.Akinoshima's box would be a nightmare to read. Kaiketsu 00:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I worked out a compromise for overlapping sansho etc. that can see on several rikishi's pages, such as Hakuho and Kaio. If a wrestler has an overlap (yusho + fighting spirit + outstanding etc. etc.) I colored it purple and made a note what purple means for this wrestler at the bottom. I think it is a good way to highlight such a special event. Just putting in letter codes (as I have seen in some places) looks quite drab and doesn't catch my attention at all. Malnova 07:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the goal needs to be legibility and comprehensibility. And color-coding isn't a great way to convey information to the color-blind. (It's more common than you might think.) Yes, such a combination is rare and remarkable, but I'm not sure that an astonishing color communicates that with any more immediacy than text. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know where you are coming from about the colors. At least my tables ignited feedback anyway. I kind of like the gold stars you posted. Maybe a similar "symbol" method could be used for sansho. Any ideas or suggestions for symbols besides the gold star icon? This sounds a lot more interesting than just a letter code. What about the colored box for a yusho? Should that go too? Malnova 10:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

What about "symbols" such as follows for the sansho and kinboshi?
F O T ☆

敢 殊 技 ☆

か し ぎ ☆

カ シ ギ ☆

I thought F O T ☆ looked a little drab so I tried out different Japanese approaches. The kanji ones especially would be hard to decipher for those that aren't used to looking at kanji.　Malnova 21:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the purple, but against black it's very low-contrast and at least on the monitor I'm using ATM it doesn't show up well. It should be more legible now; is that color acceptable?

I'm of two minds on the Japanese. To the average English speaker kanji, hiragana, and katakana are equally cryptic-looking, so if we're going to use that approach I'd say go with the kanji, which is more attractive to my eye. But since it is cryptic-looking it may be the wrong choice. It would be nice if there was some template-fu that would allow us to set a user preference, or base it on their language interface setting, but I don't think there is.

Anyway, I should be able to take a first stab at a set of templates soon, and I'll post examples here once I have that done. It shouldn't be too difficult to tweak as we decide on details. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried out a letter system on the test Asashoryu above. I agree that Japanese is probably best avoided. I don't really think the West/East distinction is very informative or useful and it makes the information in many of the boxes go askew, but some people will probably insist on it.Malnova 01:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It can be prettified a bit, but I'm not going to worry about that right now. I think this system is a fundamentally good one. E/W is there, so if we're recording rank at all, why not? The "askewness" may be browser-dependent, and I think we'll want to tweak the font sizes anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Malnova 02:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

My endless tweaking of the table continues (yes I do have a job). I wikilinked the sansho/kinboshi listed below the table, and wikilinked the first mention of the ranks Maegashira, Komosubi, Sekiwake, Ozeki and Yokozuna in the table. I have also applied these changes to Kaio Hiroyuki's article because I wanted to see what this all looked like for someone with lots of basho, yusho and sansho to record. On another note, since putting up Kaio's table, I have started to think we should be recording a kadoban somehow. What would be a harmonious way to add this to boxes (if we added it at all). Lastly, I am beginning to not like pink (a color I chose) to mark a yusho, could we use another color or is the current choice easy on the eyes? Again, this point is trivial. Malnova 00:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I have a job too, which is why I've made no progress on a templated version.

Perhaps for yusho wins the box can be left uncolored, but the bout record is bolded and colored? Example: (14-1). For kadoban, there are a few things we might do:

• reverse the color on the rank: Ōzeki
• outline rank in red: Ōzeki
• append or prefix rank with an alarming icon of some kind:
  • Ōzeki
  • Ōzeki
  • Ōzeki
  • Ōzeki

And how about jun-yusho? If we want to show it, maybe we can just bold the score without altering the color. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I have continued making tables for rikishi. I have added tables to all the current sanyaku and some of the better known (former sanyaku) Maegashira. I have also continued to refine the table(s). I thought about doing kadoban, but things might start to look to busy I decided. Besides, anyone who knows about Ozeki and kadoban would know just by an Ozeki's record whether or not his next basho was a kadoban; and anyone else probably wouldn't care much - or at least that's what I am thinking for now.

I have now added completed makuuchi tables to every rikishi that had his own article and was in the 07 May Banzuke, a total of 26. I think I'll take a break for a while. There are still all the original tables I put up for retired greats (10 in all) that have only their yusho recorded. Anyone feeling industrious, feel free to take a crack and filling in all their empty boxes.Malnova 15:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Source

When these are put up, we should remember to add a reference/source to show where the information is coming from. It shouldn't be too difficult to add that information, which is actually required, anyways.XinJeisan 16:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

As all the tables added so far are mine, I thought it my responsibility to add them, which I have done for every full table I have done so far. The retired wrestlers' tables (Chiyonofuji) that only show yusho have not been referenced yet. I thought I would save that for when the all tourny info is filled in.Malnova 02:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Template

Submitted for your approval, as Rod Serling used to say. See the development version in my sandbox at User:Csernica/Sandbox/Sumo. I put Asa and Kaio's tables in there for testing and so that you can see what it looks like, and if you hit the edit link you can see what it looks like from that end. You'll notice it looks kind of long, but not every rikishi is Kaio. Plus, I put every template transclusion on its own line for clarity, but you don't have to do that if you want to save on vertical space. The design isn't the same as what Malnova's been doing, but I hope it works well. Please let me know what you think.

The links above the tables are to the templates themselves. If you want to know what the code looks like, feel free to poke around. I'll hold off on documentation until I'm sure it's satisfactory, but there examples of most variations on the syntax present so how to use them ought to be clear for now. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That looks nice. I just have two suggestions or comments. 1) I have started to link the location of the basho to the arena where the event is held, like Ryogoku or Fukuoka Kokusai. Aichi Municipal and Fukuoka Kokusai don't have pages yet, but when I have some time after next week I want to make those pages, and hopefully expand the other two. If we are going to link the years, then we can link the months and the locations as well. 2) I wonder if we need to put the Japanese names of the basho. If you look at this page for tickets, [7] they just call it by month in English. I guess I could poke around for policy, but, if the sumo association uses these words in English, shouldn't we follow their lead?

Also, I was playing with the List of sumo tournament winners page today. whatever template we end up using for individuals we should also use for this page and others like it as well XinJeisan 07:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any policy exists on this subject. That's the kind of thing a project would come up with once it gets going. Part of a template's purpose is to achieve a uniform look across related pages, so whatever design we come up with for it will be the de facto policy until a different consensus is reached. I listed the Japanese names for the honbasho because among online sumo fans they're very often encountered, so anyone reading other online sumo resources are going to have to deal with them anyway. They might as well meet them here in a context where they're associated with the English month names and they don't have to get confused.

The thing we might want to consult with WP:JAPAN about are things like transliteration styles. We want to be consistent in that area. I prefer macrons to the other methods of indicating a long vowel, which mostly just look funny in English, but I don't know what's generally done in articles on Japanese subjects.

Ryogoku is just the name of the district in Tokyo where the Kokugikan is located; it's not the name of the Kokugikan as such. I'm mentioning that because it sounded odd to call the arena just "Ryogoku". While that arena is certainly worth the article it now boasts, I wonder if the same is true of all the others? If they're never going to have articles, we don't want to link.

The other issue is that links in the headers of tables can be kind of distracting, like links in section headers. I usually avoid them, and only linked the years here in a fit of madness. If it comes to linking the months, I'd rather delink the years. That kind of thing gets pointless after a while.

This template isn't suitable for List of sumo tournament winners; I made it specifically so that table entries for tournament records of individual rikishi could be entered with a minimum of hassle. It would have to be rewritten to accommodate shikona in the cells. There's also nothing too special about how it's set up as a table per se. The only nonstandard thing I did was to squeeze the line spacing down. But you don't really need a template for a one-shot table anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, very snazzy table. If I had known you would come up with such a snazzy table, I definitely would have waited on making my own. As you (Csernica) said, and I already knew, I should have waited to put a bunch of tables up, but I really didn't think there were enough interested people to even have any kind of consensus. Anyway, the table certainly follows the fundamentals of what I came up with, and I wouldn't protest my template being replaced by what Csernica has come up with if it meets with general approval. Having said that, I am burnt out on entering info into tables, and I am not keen on re-entering all the table info for wrestlers I have already finished. I could probably be talked into entering info for other wrestlers though. Malnova 11:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrestler and Stables that need articles

As I was adding makuuchi tables, I was surprised at some wrestlers that don't have articles.

Wakanosato (maybe his heyday has passed for now, but he is still in makuuchi and a cute and spunky guy Toyonoshima (up and coming for a while) Mitoizumi (he is probably before the time of a lot of editors, but he was quite popular, the rikishi who threw a huge handful of salt before every bout to get the crowd roaring, and he actually had a makuuchi yusho in 92 or so. Lots of heyas need articles, there are very few out there

Any takers on these? I might get to some after I get over my tourney table addiction.

• Akinoshima (all time sansho leader). I thought Mitoizumi had an article, how could anyone forget "ol'Saltshaker"! Kaiketsu 10:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• Tamakasuga, this guy is still around, and has been in and out of Makuuchi a number of times, he is a scrapper and definitely deserves an article

Over the last few months I have started articles on some the older guys such as Kirishima, Sakahoko, Kotonishiki and Takatoriki, and I've been meaning to get round to Mito and Akinoshima. I'll probably start them in the next few days if no one gets there first! Pawnkingthree 16:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I added all these names to the really beginning template for the Wikiproject homepage. Please tell me what you think of it. User:XinJeisan/Wikiproject Sumo

Sumo Wikiproject

I have spent the past few weeks watching and participating at Akebono watching the repeated blanking the page due to lack of sources. It seems that many sumo pages lack sources. This could be improved if we started a wikiproject. Then, the conversation above could also be done on the Sumo Wikiproject page. I am not sure about the process to create a wikiproject for sumo, but, I think it would be a good idea. What do you think here? XinJeisan 21:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It would benefit sumo on Wikipedia for sure. This talk page is practically working as sort of a semi-project page for sumo. So I'm all for it.

As far as sources go, there is actually quite good information available. Japan Times, Japan Today and Mainichi Daily are quite good sources of up to date info on sumo. I referenced (wheres citations were needed) the whole Wakanohana III article through these "newspapers". Will be harder to reference "older" rikishi, but If someone has a whole box full of old editons of "Sumo World Magazine" that would really help!

Though not many GOOD books about sumo are avaible in English, that would give in-depth info about the history and the rituals of the sport itself. The best I've come across is Mina Hall's "the Big Book of Sumo". It was published in 1997 so it's a bit outdated but I would certainly recommend it. Kaiketsu 10:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The best book on sumo I've read is definitely Lorna Sharnoff's "Grand Sumo" (1993); indeed I've used it as a source for several articles such as Takanosato and Wajima. It's excellent on the rituals and history too! Pawnkingthree 16:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I have posted a proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals for Wikiproject Sumo, please sign up! It is proposal 1.116. If someone can edit this to link directly to that section, I don't know how, please go ahead. Thanks.XinJeisan 16:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Like this: WikiProject Sumo Proposal TCC (talk) (contribs) 18:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

thanks!

I created a page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sumo so that everyone could feel comfortable to move discussions on sumo in general over there and get working on that. XinJeisan 13:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't using XinJeisan's User wikiproject page much at first, but I have since added to a lot of articles and had some more ideas and have been recording them at said page. Stop by there when you have time, anyone who wants to make the wikipedia sumo presence better by contributing ideas and article content. User:XinJeisan/Wikiproject_Sumo. Thanks for your time. Malnova 05:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly suggest that all this be moved to the main project page XinJeisan created earlier. It now has a shortcut: WP:SUMO. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, last I looked it seemed the main project page wasn't being used (or I couldn't find it anyway). I have since merged all the additions into the main project page. Thanks.Malnova 07:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Kinboshi table

I just added a table of "top kinboshi earners" to the Kinboshi article. Take a look. Any feedback, ideas are welcome. Except for the "status" of each man on the list, I got the numbers from here: [8] and there is a lot more info on this page that could be used for other makuuchi tables if anyone is feeling inspired. I am sure there are similar tables in English somewhere, but this Japanese list was the best I could find. Malnova 08:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

italicizing bot?

Following the example of the sumo kyokai's official page and the Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms, I just went through the kinboshi article and did it by hand and realized how long this would take to do on a large scale. I have very little idea of how bots work, but is there a bot already made that can go through the sumo articles and italicize and/or decapitalize the Japanese terms? I know you have to "request" one, and was wondering about the feasibility of such a bot and the consensus for doing such a thing across sumo wiki articles. Malnova 20:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

sumo glossary

I think someone touched on this a few weeks back, but there are a heck of a lot of "dictionary entries" for sumo words floating around on wikipedia. Examples being: toshiyori, fusensho and many more that elude my memory right now. Wouldn't it be better to link all the appearance of these words to one sumo glossary article? It seems to me it would be a definite improvement for a number of reasons: 1. wiki is not a dictionary, it is a type of encyclopedia, and besides the short explication given for most of these terms looks pretty sad when a user may have been expecting a full article. 2. the casual user (or not so casual) may take the opportunity to check out other words listed in the glossary. 3. It could make the over-preponderance of Japanese sumo terms on wiki articles more easily manageable. Thoughts? I just checked and there are glossaries all over wiki, including sports specific terms, so I have taken the liberty of starting a similar glossary for sumo, entitled Glossary of sumo terms and wouldn't begrudge any help (wink wink). Malnova 20:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It would certainly be useful. But I think the entries should consist of brief entries. The longer explanations should be inserted into the article covering the related subject. The bulk of what was in fusensho could, for example, be integrated into a broader article on how a honbasho is run, and a brief summary definition inserted into the glossary.

Also, consider using the "; :" syntax for entries. They're designed for just this sort of thing, and translate into DT, DD HTML tags. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources

I think it would be a good idea to try to get rid of that "no sources" tag at the top of the article. It really doesn't look good to have the core sumo article on Wikipedia having such a prominent tag. I don't remember if this tag came before or after someone put a source list at the bottom, but I suspect we are going to have to put footnotes throughout the text before we can get the tag taken off. Malnova 02:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Lots of footnotes is the usual standard, yes. Tags like this aren't too uncommon for older articles written back when a simple list of references at the end was considered sufficient. After the rule changed, many featured and good articles got downgraded. But I can see I'm going to have to start looking for books. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Online sources as well are acceptable, no? Malnova 02:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

They're fine, but they may be rather limited, depending on what we're trying to reference. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There are now enough footnotes to justify taking the tag down. Additionally, "References and footnotes" can be just called "References", but the "Books" section needs a more precise title. Were those books used as references, or are they just for further reading? There is nothing wrong with a "Further reading" section. Bradford44 14:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey all. I would love to get that last vestige of incompleteness off this article and lose that last "no source" tag floating in the "Pro sumo" section. I am however out of books and online sources. Anyone got a few more sources to add here and there so we can finally lose that tag? Malnova 21:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I've put some in and I think that should be enough to remove the tag. Pawnkingthree 16:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

improving quality, coherence

If you sit down and take a look at the sumo article it really is pretty convoluted. It has lots of extraneous info, for one thing, that is well covered in other articles. I will take a crack at reducing some of the info that is repeated in other articles (most especially yokozuna info). Malnova 20:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly recommend that the history of sumo precede any sections on modern practice and tournament structure. Bradford44 23:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I can put the history back. Anyway, the problem with the structure of this article is that it has always tried to be about Pro sumo and sumo in general at the same time, as I am sure many have noticed. I am not sure how we should go about it, but we might considering separating these into two articles, sumo and pro sumo. I understand why no one has tried this, because pro sumo is so "steeped in tradition" that it seems incongruous to leave everything else out. Any ideas? Malnova 00:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

My first impulse was to disagree with Bradford's recommendation, but I note that other sports articles also place the History section before the Gameplay section, so we probably ought to follow suit. However, since sumo's history can be rather extensive, depending on how much detail we want to cover, it might be best to develop a main History of sumo article at some point.

I had been thinking about how to handle pro/amateur sumo, and it seems to me that professional sumo ought to be treated in this general article, and amateur in its own main article with a brief summary here. It's the professional sport that's a direct outgrowth of the traditional martial art, entails a characteristic lifestyle, and still plays a cultural role in its relation to Shinto, and so on. By comparison, amasumo is kind of a pared-down version, and so is easier to describe in relation to the pro sport than otherwise. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Definitely reads much better now that the history section is first. Pawnkingthree 12:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, an external review of the sumo article dating from April 2006 (here) is generally positive but suggests that the sections be rearranged more or less as we have now done. Pawnkingthree 14:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I am glad you pointed this out. It is a pretty ringing endorsement. Makes me feel better about the work we have done here, even with all those tags. Malnova 20:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction: weight divisions

Under Bout preparation, the article says that "There are no weight divisions in sumo". Under Amateur sumo, it says that amateur tournaments under the International Sumo Federation are divided into weight classes. Presumably the first sentence just needs some words added, like "typically in sumo" or "in professional sumo" or "in sumo (except in the ISF)" or some other variation, whatever is correct. But I would not presume to know what is the correct correction, so I've just tagged the contradiction and am leaving it for someone who knows what they're talking about to fix.

Please post any discussion here. --142.205.241.254 (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Good point, this is easy enough to fix, will do so immediately. FourTildes (talk) 21:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Manual of Style Issues

I've noticed all Asian martial arts articles tend to have drifted from the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, specifically in relation to: -

Foreign words should be used sparingly. [9] Some topics are intrinsically technical, but editors should try to make them understandable to as many readers as possible. Minimize jargon, or at least explain it; or tag it using {{Technical}} or {{Technical-statement}} for other editors to fix. [10]

In the case of this article, Sumo, it appears that the lead in paragraph obeys the manual of style almost perfectly, but the further down the article you get the quality drops sharply. Rather than having to click on every foreign and / or technical word I find to learn the description, the description (which in most cases is a word, possibly two or three at most) should be used in the article with the foreign word in parentheses thereafter. BaSH PR0MPT (talk) 17:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Article surgery

I started out moving sentences around that were misplace and clarifying other areas, but I finally decided to handle some of the bloat. Sumo and shinto and Controversies were big enough (and secondary enough) to be moved to their own articles. Eastern martial arts in comparison to sumo, former rikishi in mixed martial arts, and memorabilia all had small sections and are largely irrelevant. It was a hard choice (the memorabilia section was one of my first contributions to wikipedia). They are not forgotten. I am thinking a lot of it could be integrated into a full-fledged Rikishi article, and I have saved all of the text. FourTildes (talk) 15:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

So I think the sumo article is much more digestible now. The first two sections I took out have been moved to two new not too short articles: Controversies in sumo and Shinto origins of sumo. I never really took a good look at how convoluted that Shinto origins section had become, but I tried to fix it up for it's article debut. Both of these articles are linked in the sumo article so will hopefully still get attention. The remaining sections I took out: memorabilia, difference from martial arts, mixed martial ex-rikishi, and foreign participation have all been integrated into rikishi which is no longer a redirect and which also has extra summaries of rikishi life etc. at the beginning. I made the decision to keep in Life as a pro rikishi material in the main article, because I think it touches the most on what makes the world of sumo so different, even though it might well fit in the heya article or the rikishi article. I also thought the salary info was important enough, as again it is different from most sports. I made the mistake of thinking I could look at the Japanese sumo article for guidance. I have never seen such a bloated mess in a wikipedia article. Everything is there all wiggledy piggledy (always wanted to say that. Anyway.. FourTildes (talk) 07:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Good article relisting

Is there any interest in trying to get Sumo at least relisted as a Good Article with a view towards Featured Article - I noticed the work done by User talk:FourTildes and really don't think it is that far off.Peter Rehse (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Did Sumo originate in Japan or China?

Dear Wikipedia,

The article "Sumo" is not clear as to whether or not Sumo originated in Japan or China. The info box on the right says China, and the article body says Japan.

I am not a Sumo expert and cannot clarify this issue on my own; it is my hope that among you exists an individual who can rectify this situation.

Sincerely,

Spockanori — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spockanori (talk • contribs) 01:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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The Decline In Sumo.

I feel that to improve the page there should be talk about how sumo has declined due to modernization in Japan. It guides the reader to a then and now perspective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariaAlvar40 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

missing information

This article does not mention anything about the Chinese origins of sumo. Tooironic (talk) 01:58, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

That would be a {{citation required}} problem. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 04:38, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

G'day! I just read it on Baidu. No reference yet. Tooironic (talk) 11:29, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Starting stance of Sumo

We do not seem to have anything on the starting squatting stance of a Sumo bout before engagement. --Penbat (talk) 21:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

It appears you are correct - not mention of the tachi-ai, which is a definite oversight. I'll add something.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Cool but Im referring to the stage where they just stare at each other while squatting and stomp each foot alternately. Also an image would be good.--Penbat (talk) 13:05, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Oh I see - the shikiri. Yes that is an omission too - all those rituals are important. Plus salt throwing is mentioned in the lead section of the article but not in the main body.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:12, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes "crouch repeatedly" aka "squat repeatedly". I am particularly interested in the squatting aspect - see squatting position. Shikiri looks to me like a full squat (maybe a "heels up" full squat) while the actual fighting is a partial squat as hips and knees are bent to some degree. See the categories I have put in for this article.

See sumo squat on google - I doubt if this is authentic sumo though.--Penbat (talk) 16:09, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

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Current Season

Is there a way to put that in there? I've seen it for other leagues. Sumo's only in Japan, so I think it'd be good to put it here. Alacrity25 (talk) 03:18, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

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Another Question

Are there any articles on individual bashos? If not, I'm going to try to get started on them. Alacrity25 (talk) 15:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

@Alacrity25: No there aren’t. We do have numerous articles covering individual years in sumo, see List of years in sumo. I have been focusing on expanding those, but I guess a really memorable basho could merit its own article.Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:15, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@Pawnkingthree: I don't fully understand. Aren't the bashos the equivalent of Grand Slam tournaments, in say, tennis or golf? 18:18, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

​Indeed they are, and of course there are articles on individual Grand Slam golf and tennis tournaments, but I prefer to cover the six bashos at one time in a article on the sumo "season", eg 2017 in sumo. Doing articles on individual tournaments is not something I'd considered before. But if you want to create Grand Sumo Tournament January 2018 or something similar then go ahead. You would of course, need reliable sources to use as references - some useful ones are listed at the WikiProject Sumo page.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

​ Sounds good! I will try to make a draft. I'm sure we could eventually make templates and what not for the statistical stuff, but as with the notable tournaments in other sports, those things should be supplementary to the main content. Alacrity25 (talk) 19:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)