Talk:Stewart Island shag
Split is well-established[edit]
Merge. The 2014 and 2016 papers that split this species haven't been challenged. It may exist in older lists, such as Checklist of the birds of New Zealand, Norfolk and Macquarie islands, and the Ross Dependency, Antarctica (2010) (Q59440579) (last updated in 2010, and not due for an update for ten more years), but is recognised as two species – Otago shag and Fouveaux shag – in recent reliable sources such as the 2016 Department of Conservation Conservation Status of New Zealand Birds,[1] IOC, and Avibase.[2] If anyone knows of a post-2016 publication that argues these two species are conspecific, they should supply the reference. Otherwise this article should be merged into Otago Shag, the taxon that retains the Stewart Island Shag's specific name. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 22:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Merge. It's too bad the Otago shag article (which has been in existence under various names since 2005) wasn't just updated rather than this new article being created (in 2016). But I guess there was still some potential controversy then. Anyway, I agree it should be merged into the more longstanding article. MeegsC (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Merge. IOC 10.2 lists two species and without strong reasons we should follow:[3]
- Otago Shag (Leucocarbo chalconotus) – east South Island (New Zealand)
- Foveaux Shag (Leucocarbo stewarti) – Stewart Island, south South Island (New Zealand)
- Aa77zz (talk) 11:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Merge per preceding Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Merge per preceding....Pvmoutside (talk) 12:37, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Question. Why merge it with the Otago shag rather than the Foveaux shag? It seems to me that the redirect for the Stewart shag should point to Leucocarbo stewarti. Is there a reason to dissociate the common and scientific names? — Jts1882 | talk 14:02, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Because the scientific names of Stewart shag is Leucocarbo chalconotus, as is the scientific name of Otago shag. The scientific name for Foveaux shag is Leucocarbo stewarti. This article should be merged with that of the species with the same scientific name. MeegsC (talk) 16:05, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- The Stewart Island shag is common name for Leucocarbo chalconotus when applied to a species containing both Otago and Foveaux lineages. The common name isn't a synonym of the scientific name, so the common name is not tied to the scientific name, but belongs to the population best described by the name. The shags found on Stewart Island are of the Foveaux lineage (Leucocarbo stewarti) so the common name would best apply there, although to avoid confusion they are proposing two new common names. It makes no sense to preferentially redirect Stewart Island shag to the Otago shag over Foveaux shag. A disampiguation page might be the best solution. — Jts1882 | talk 16:54, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps that would be a better solution, as "Stewart Island Shag" (never known as "Stewart Shag" in New Zealand) is certainly in use in older sources, and readers will need to know that it's been split so they can choose which article to read. The two species listed by Aa77zz above would be the appropriate content for the disambiguation page. This avoids arguments over whether the Stewart shag is "really" Otago shag or Foveaux shag; it's both. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Okay. Since the suggestion to merge has good support, I've asked Jimfbleak, who's an admin with the WP:BIRDS project, to handle the article merge. I'll create a disambiguation page at Stewart Island shag (since that's the name most books/Kiwis use), and the current Stewart shag article will redirect to that once the merge is done. Thanks all! MeegsC (talk) 11:36, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps that would be a better solution, as "Stewart Island Shag" (never known as "Stewart Shag" in New Zealand) is certainly in use in older sources, and readers will need to know that it's been split so they can choose which article to read. The two species listed by Aa77zz above would be the appropriate content for the disambiguation page. This avoids arguments over whether the Stewart shag is "really" Otago shag or Foveaux shag; it's both. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- The Stewart Island shag is common name for Leucocarbo chalconotus when applied to a species containing both Otago and Foveaux lineages. The common name isn't a synonym of the scientific name, so the common name is not tied to the scientific name, but belongs to the population best described by the name. The shags found on Stewart Island are of the Foveaux lineage (Leucocarbo stewarti) so the common name would best apply there, although to avoid confusion they are proposing two new common names. It makes no sense to preferentially redirect Stewart Island shag to the Otago shag over Foveaux shag. A disampiguation page might be the best solution. — Jts1882 | talk 16:54, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Because the scientific names of Stewart shag is Leucocarbo chalconotus, as is the scientific name of Otago shag. The scientific name for Foveaux shag is Leucocarbo stewarti. This article should be merged with that of the species with the same scientific name. MeegsC (talk) 16:05, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Robertson, H.A; Baird, K.; Dowding, J.E.; Elliott, G.P.; Hitchmough, R.A.; Miskelly, C.M.; McArthur, N.; O’Donnell, C.F.J.; Sagar, P.M.; Scofield, R.P.; Taylor, G.A. 2017. Conservation status of New Zealand birds, 2016. New Zealand Threat Classification Series 19. Wellington, Department of Conservation. 27p.
- ^ "Foveaux Shag". Avibase. Retrieved 20 Aug 2020.
- ^ Gill, Frank; Donsker, David; Rasmussen, Pamela, eds. (July 2020). "Storks, frigatebirds, boobies, cormorants, darters". IOC World Bird List Version 10.2. International Ornithologists' Union. Retrieved 25 November 2020.