Talk:Southern Mansi language

Sources

The article contains no modern sources: two links lead to dictionary entries of a 19th century dictionary (the newer dates are just reprints) and essentially no sources (the references are to the dictionary entries and, apparently, an introduction to the same dictionary as ref 2), only used for the fact that the language is extinct. Perhaps, should be merged and replaced by a redirect to Mansi languages#Varieties that already contains essentially the same text. Russian sources (and there are pretty much no other ones) use the "dialect" terminology with respect to variants of Mansi, there is preciously little scholarship on Tavda. Викидим (talk) 07:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Викидим There are sources in German, (not sure about Finnish) and yes, in Russian about Southern Mansi, they haven't been added, I have littel time to edit it in, that is why it's a Stub like the others. In Rombandeeva, E. I. (1976): Mansi language. (Mansijskij jazyk) In: Fundamentals of Finno-Ugric linguistics. Mari, Perm and Ugric languages. - Moscow, Science. 229-239, she writes about Souhtern Norhtern Western and Eastern as dialectal groups, whihc says that they aren't dialects of an individual language. And as well as in the Oxford book on Uralic langugaes, Eastern and Northern Mansi are classified as languages, Western and Southern aren't included because of their extinct nature. There is also a website collecting and analising the data from several authors on Tavda Mansi. I think addapting the information collected on the site onto Wikipedia would be enough to not merge this with the already split Mansi langugaes article. I know we should want newer and newer resources on Tavda, but since they died out so long ago, we can't have them, which wouldn't be a valid point to not have a separate artickle for the language. Ewithu (talk) 08:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I see no problem adding Russian sources here (will add the one you have just referenced and remove the tag). This source also clearly spells "dialect", as I have stated, I do not understand what "aren't dialects of an individual language" in your reply is. Викидим (talk) 16:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Викидим (talk) 17:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I have left few {{cn}} in place, as there appears to be a confusion between "southern" and "eastern" (Kovda can be either apparently). I am no expert, so feel free to change. Викидим (talk) 17:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Understood. In my eyes, it might be the fact that they aren't using the cardinal directions as distinct names, but rather as a true way of saying "It was spoken east to the main Mansi land" or something like that.

I've also was given some other sources, or source gatherings that argue for seperate languages: Ob-Ugric and Spisok jazykov Rossii Monograph 2023 [jazykirf.iling-ran.ru/(2023)_Spisok_jazykov_Rossii_Monograph.pdf] (it doesn't seem to embed :|) on page 74 Ewithu (talk) 19:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I am not an expert in the field and stumbled upon this article as part of the WP:NPP. So any sources good for you are good for me. I also have no position on "dialect" vs. "language". IMHO, ignoring the position of practically all research on the topic would be wrong, but a mere notice of terminology mismatch should suffice. Викидим (talk) 22:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)