Talk:Socionics/Archive 3

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Archive 7

My opinion on why the Socionics article deletion would potentially be a good thing taking the circumstances

First off I should probably state who I am. I am officially recognized in Russia and the United States as a practicing socionists. I studied Religion, Theology, Metaphysics, Biblical Languages, at a University in Texas for 4 years, and the German language at a University in Northern California for 3 years, where I had the opportunity to exchange to Tuebingen University in Tuebingen, Germany to study Theology, and improve my Greek. I have studied socionics since 2003 and was the owner of the largest english speaking socionics forum the16types.info since 2005 (bought from Jimmy Caretti) until I sold it in late 2008. Since that time I formed the forum metasocion.com in order to present socionics in its natural form, as I found the "the the16types.info" crowd to be both extremely ignorant and prejudiced against presenting socionics the way that the founders had originally presented it. You can see some of my socionic credentials below:

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Reuben_McNew http://www.typelab.ru/en/1.begin/index.html http://www.socioniki.info/index.php/2008-11-05-20-39-51

It is my personal opinion that all socionics articles should be deleted until it is agreed by everyone that it is a good idea to give a neutral presentation of the origin of socionics that discusses its esoteric development and gives mention to the fact that esoteric interpretations of chakras, tattwas, and psychic energy and mysticism in general were the main basis that the founders of socionics based their theory upon, and that from this socionics was formulated and later "framed to appear to be something like Jung or MBTI" and that "mystical interpretations of socionics type theory have descended directly from the founders and exist to this day" and that "there is a split between those of the opinion that socionics is something empirical and that socionics is something mystical." The multitude of sources that have been presented have already shown this. However, taking that there are people who would rather take unneutral views of socionics and present socionics in a way contrary to its origin [meaning in a frame which presents it as a form similar to MBTI or Jung with no mention of its esoteric background] I would be in favor of deleteing all socionics articles. I think that those who are opposed to an esoteric presentation of socionics should either come to terms that it would be correct to allow some information in some form to neutrally portray socionics esoteric background or to be content with the deletion of the whole of all of the information. --Rmcnew (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Minimum information?

I made edits yesterday to correct what I saw were flow problems with my earlier edits. Jbolden: what did you mean about "changing terms?" I used the same terms that Lytov uses. Tcaudilllg (talk) 17:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that the Fillipov criticism was removed. I'm putting it back. Tcaudilllg (talk) 20:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

user conduct

what is particularly distressing about the way this page is being handled is the degree to which, despite the recent deletion and noticeboard incidents, many users are continuing to police the page as if it were their own and uniformly rejecting the contributions of others. while i by no means wish to convey the message that all of these contributions are in bad faith or are unproductive towards improving the page, i think that some of them are, and that there are some conduct issues that should be sorted out before meaningful improvement of the page can take place. as we just had a bit on WP:AN/I that had no result, i don't really know what, if anything, i can do. this is a message primarily stating that i feel some conduct resolution is in order, i will not be the impulse towards this end, and i will not be taking an active role in this page until such time as this happens or the interested parties lose interest. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Conduct resolution is irrelevant. What's needed is a clear statement of the rules from on high. (that would be ArbCom) Tcaudilllg (talk) 05:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

If you think my edits are "bad", then you should say it to my face and state your reasoning for thinking such. This hiding behind character assassination to camouflage your contempt for another's point of view is immature. Tcaudilllg (talk) 05:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom does not address content they address behavior. I think what you want is mediation (like mediation cabal) or an RFC not arbcom. If the mediation / RFC process were successful and people continued to engage in bad faith edits after that then you would have an arbcom case against individuals for tendentious editing. jbolden1517 ^Talk 13:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

i do not know what action to take. it is obvious that some action will need to be taken, but also that arbcom is not warranted at this time. i don't know what else to do and i won't be the one doing it. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens (talk) 00:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Well here is what needs to happen, IMHO:

There needs to be a separation of issues.
There needs to be a consensus on the talk pages regarding what are reliable sources and what aren't.
After 1 and 2 are complete new sections need to be collaboratively written.
I think we need to put a halt to major edits without consensus.

I think (2) is probably the easiest to work with. Lets make a list of sources and then classify them as: reliable, fringe, not reliable. We can just RFC that. Then we do (1), given any statement of fact we require 2 RSes for the citation. We do this throughout. If there are 2 RSes one side of an issue and 2 RSes on the other, we indicate the topic is disputed and give both positions. After we have this article clearly up to a reliable standard we start to deal with fringe sources. jbolden1517 ^Talk 00:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

These sound like good suggestions, Jbolden. I could see (1) and (2) happening somewhat concurrently, because in organizing the available sources, it will probably make sense to categorize them to some extent. This grouping would inform the separation of issues you mention in (1).

Tcaudilllg approached me about helping with disputes on this page, and this seems to be a good place to jump in. Would it be best to start with sources already used in the article, and then decide if more should be added. -GTBacchus^(talk) 14:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The socionics article page in my opinion is only completely neutral when it contains factual information that can be used by both proponents and critics without any extreme bias towards either. The main beef I have with the majority of the editors in the main socionics article is that there are a few who have an utter intent to intentionally hide factual, verifiable information on the developement and current status of socionics in order to fulfill a personal agenda to make socionics seem much more scientific and acceptable than it actually is or to only express the empiricle,protoscientific or pseudo-scientific view of socionics and entirely neglect the legitimate mystical socionics viewpoint that actually exists within the theory. It seems I am the only one who is writting any information so far concerning the mystical views and esoteric origins in socionics theory and I have to fight constantly with other editors who want to totally exclude these viewpoints or portions of the viewpoint, which from my standpoint is an unneutral action on the part of these editors. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for expressing your concerns, Rmcnew. I think I understand what you're saying. I agree that all viewpoints need to be represented, with appropriate weight given to various views.

Do you agree with the plan voiced above by User:jbolden1517, about getting our reliable sources straightened out first, identifying points of contention, and then working on those one-by-one? I expect you can help us considerably, because you might know more than the rest of us about sources representing the esoteric perspective. What do you think? -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I think jbolden's plan would work in the event that it is also in line with what I have stated, because otherwise it would just be the proponents of one side attempting to oppress the other side. I have good faith that what I have been telling people about socionics is true, though I agree that I have stated things in the past in ways people do not want to hear and that I have been lacking all but seemingly reliable fringe sources in english. There are sources in the russian language that deal with socionics esoteric developement and the mystical view that uses new age techniques and sources, chakras and such that are not professionally translated and difficult to cite unless everyone knows good russian. Those have been posted as source material in the past with mixed results from other editors. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think we're trying now to make sure everyone is on board, and that all perspectives are appropriately addressed. Why don't we start listing some sources, perhaps organized by which article section they most apply to? Foreign language sources are more difficult to work with, but the scope of WikiMedia projects is global, and we can certainly get help with translation if we need it. My grasp of Russian is almost non-existent, but I know we have a Requests for translation page. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

PHD in psychology associated with Moscow Socionics Research Institute

According to this link there are a couple of people with batchelors in socionics that run the schools as teachers and staff, and at least two PHDs in psychology with an emphasis in socionics leading and advising the institute. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably the most authoritative and credible reference to an introduction to socionics

The following is authored by Tatyana Prokofieva, PhD. in socionics. It would be found on this link. Information from here should go into the wikipedia article: http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=256&Itemid=37

Cannot have "chakras" and "scientific" in the same context

Hmmm... the current version contains the following sentence:

Socionic theorists have considered certain speculative comparisons between aspects of hindu philosophy, the information elements and chakras as they relate to the central nervous system scientific. In socionics, the sociotypes, as they relate to chakras, can be studied as a means to understand disease, and thus find cures to disease and to create health. This is both the scientific position of the founder Aušra Augustinavičiūtė and also the official position (according to this article) of the Socionics Research Institute in Moscow, Russia.

You cannot have anything that gives the impression that any research involving "chakras" is in any way scientific. As chakras are a religious concept and are not scientifically verifiable, anything that builds on the use of chakras is by default, equally unscientific.

Please consult the disputes and ultimate consensus achieved at homeopathy for more about this issue.

We would need to either label this entire subject as a new-age type system and remove all references to scientific validity, or else relocate references to such non-scientific statements to a distinct area, separate then from the science relevant work and disallow anything that implies there is scientific validity to such concepts. Manning (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

You are correct that this would be the case, in the western world. Alot of what socionics calls scientific is not really scientific in the western sense. That is exactly what I have been saying over and over and over again. Hindu comparisons and chakras as they relate to health and healing is a part of socionics as it came from ausura augusta in what was a considered by her a "scientific" sense, as well as the development of protoscientific methods that could be considered alternative medicine. When one looks at how the methods were done by early socionists, that obviously wasn't scientific in a western sense, even though some of the proponents may have tried to claim such --Rmcnew (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

That's fine, but it can't go in Wikipedia in that form. The Arbitration Committee ruled on this a few years back (see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience. Hence we have a strict usage of the word "scientific" and only the western version is ever allowed. See Wikipedia:Scientific_consensus. Manning (talk) 18:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Changed the statement to "While considered unscientific by western standards, socionic theorists have considered certain speculative comparisons between aspects of hindu philosophy, the information elements and chakras as they relate to the central nervous system" and replaced "scientific position" with "position". --Rmcnew (talk) 23:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

If you're going to include that, then you're going to have to mention that such links are a point of serious contention. That will at least allow the scientific socionists to distance themselves from the non-scientifics. Tcaudilllg (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

What would be the consensus of the mathematical theories in socionics theory? The relationships as came from Reinin are basically just logic gates with the assumption that there is "energy between two different types of people" according to sociotype. So, basically some mathematical laws (booleon algebra) used to direct "electric currents" are assumed in socionics to exist in one to one curcumstances between two people, correspond to "information metabolism", and therefore influence mental perceptions and actions from their types by relationship. That is both esoteric and pseudoscientific in my opinion. Ausura Augusta even authored a whole book on the theory by Reinin, stateing that the mathematical deductions he made on socionics fits with the theory. This means that if the intertype relationships are to be included in the socionics article, then this information should also go along with other esoteric and protoscientific stances that are also a part of socionics theory. They came from Reinin's mathematics.

Basically, there really is not much that can be claimed empirical or scientific according to a western standard. Whether that means a movement to a categorization of socionics as a new age system, I don't know ... I do know that there is a bunch of unscientific nonsense in socionics theory that people are trying to claim is either scientific and/or turn into something scientific according to a western standard, but I do not really understand how that can be done short of abandoning socionics for other theories. There is just too much at its base that doesn't comform to that standard. --Rmcnew (talk) 19:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, so now mathematics is also esoteric? Tcaudilllg (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

taking the statements made above

Much of socionics would fit under the current category. Giving the time cube as an example, Ausura Augusta and some other proponents claim that socionics is scientific, when there are obvious non-scientific things about the theory, would put socionics in the same category as the time cube.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Obvious_pseudoscience

Questioning that Ausura Augusta was the one who introduced the function shapes

The following text states thus:

"Of all the aspects of socionics study, "aspectonics", as the study of information elements is called, may be the most difficult to grasp. Although Augusta argues that every information aspect belongs to one of the eight elements, she does not submit that there cannot be further categorizations in the context of the eight. To impress upon her students that what was being spoken of were strictly intuitive abstractions, Augustinavičiūtė introduced geometric symbols for each information element. These symbols are still in use today, although other notations have been proposed. In common usage, Viktor Gulenko's system , which uses Latin symbols, is favored in Russia and other non-English speaking countries, while the two letter MBTI convention is favored in English-speaking forums."

Now, the statement here:

"Augustinavičiūtė introduced geometric symbols for each information element. These symbols are still in use today"

Book sources that have not been translated professionally into english

I think actual print book sources that are not translated into english should not count as viable sources unless there is a viable other internet or similar source that could be compared, such as from Dmitri Lytov or similar person. Otherwise, it could be possible for basically anyone to make any rediculous claim that has no proof of backing (looking right at some specific editors, who have been doing this, ones name starts with a T), while using the "Dual Nautre of Man" or any other prime socionics book as a source. For example, some editor could claim that "Ausura Augusta" said such and such in "Dual Nature of Man", when very few english speaking people can even read this book. It can not be readily refuted in the event the editor was making a shakey claim. This book has never been professionally translated.

Tatyana Prokofieva, PHD, certified article mentioning tattva (same as tattwa) and socionics information element connection with hindu beliefs in chakras

Tatyana Prokofieva who has a recognized Ph.D. in Socionics, approved the following article for publication on her website, which represents the socionics stance of " The Research Institute for Socionics" located in Moscow, Russia. It should be noted that the following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The following article is peer reviewed and PHD certified. The PHD who certified the article is Tatyana Prokofieva who has a recognized Ph.D. in Socionics. Tatyana Prokofieva chairs theThe Research Institute for Socionics, as a Ph.D. in Socionics.

THE ARTICLE IS SIGNIFIGANT IN THAT, AS IT IS A PHD CERTIFIED SOCIONICS ARTICLE ON THE OFFICIAL "RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR SOCIONICS" WEBSITE. THE EARTH TATTWA, A YELLOW SQUARE IS EQUATED TO INFORMATION ELEMENT OF THINKING. THIS IS A PHD CERTIFIED ARTICLE ON AN OFFICIAL SOCIONICS WEBSITE.

Source: (origional) http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm

Source: (translated) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm&ei=8YmySrNcksQ2v9aVzQs&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%2B%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%2Bsocionics.ru%26hl%3Den

According to T.N. Prokofieva, the subject of Socionics is a "study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche." It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers, to draw parallels between these ancient teachings and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and functions socionic awakened centers. In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases.

1. 1. The lowest chakra - root (basal), or Muladhara ( "mule" - root "adhara - support).This chakra is considered as a link between the physical and subconscious worlds. It is located in the coccyx. Manages the processes of purification of the body and corresponds to the sacral nerve plexus. Its endocrine gland is the prostate is associated with male sex organs, rectum and colon. Of the organs of perception and action conform to her nose (sense of smell) and legs. When unbalance the Muladhara Chakra there hemorrhoids, constipation, sciatica, prostatitis, an inflammation of the ovaries......

1).....Indeed, the Muladhara chakra corresponds to the primary element (Tattva) earth, the planet Saturn.

2).....The most relevant Muladhara chakra socionic functions - business logic (P).

OLGA KARPENKO, Peer reviewed PHD article from http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua ... speaks on the relationship between Chakras, Hindu Philosophy, Astrology, and other Esotericism.

OLGA KARPENKO, from the KIEV SOCIONICS SCHOOL headed by ALEXANDER BUKALOV, discusses CHAKRAS, ASTROLOGY, and SOCIONICS as it relates to HINDUISM, NEW AGE PHILOSOPHY, and in a way consistent with SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS AND BELIEVES IN HINDU OR SIMILAR PHILOSOPHY.

Source: (origional) http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/t/olly295.html

Source: (translation) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/t/olly295.html&ei=cyK5SpvtG4eaMb-EudsP&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25D0%2595%25D1%2581%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%2B%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B5%2B%25D0%25B3%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D1%258C%2B%25D0%25BE%2B%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B7%25D0%25BD%25D1%258B%25D1%2585%2B%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%2B%25D1%2587%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BB%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%2B%25D0%25B2%2B%25D1%2582%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%2B%25D1%2582%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BB%2522%26hl%3Den

What are we talking about?

В центре внимания соционики, безусловно, человек. The focus of Socionics, of course, man. Но в разных культурных традициях человека принято рассматривать с разных точек зрения. But in different cultural traditions of the people taken viewed from different points of view.

Традиция, обращающая основное внимание не столько на "информационное" сколько на энергетическое существо человека, выделяет определенные центры и уровни. Tradition, focuses less on "information" as to the nature of man power, allocates certain points and levels. Их число в различных источниках варьируется. Their number varies in different sources. Например: For example:

Эти центры, называемые в Индии Чакрами находятся не в нашем физическом теле, а в другом измерении, хотя концентрация в них бывает временами столь интенсивна, что у нас возникает острое локализованное физическое ощущение. These centers, called Chakras in India are not in our physical body, but in another dimension, although the concentration in them is at times so intense that we get a sharp localized physical sensation. На самом деле, некоторые из них довольно близки к различным нервным сплетениям нашего тела, хотя и не все. [Сатпрем] In fact, some of them quite close to the various nerve plexuses of the body, though not all. [Satprem] Если же говорить о разных планах человека в терминах тел или оболочек: физическое тело, эфирное, астральное, ментальное, каузальное, - то можно проследить некоторую закономерность: наличие в каждой оболочке "особых точек", определяющих, в конечном итоге, ход развития соответствующего тела. If we talk about the different plans in terms of human bodies or shells: physical body, etheric, astral, mental, causal - then we can trace a certain regularity: the presence in each shell of the "special points" that determine, ultimately, the course of development of the body . Так, если обратиться к физиологии, то развивающееся существо (особенно на ранних стадиях) обладает скрытыми (непроявленными) особыми точками, деятельность которых приводит к формированию органов и тканей тела. So, if we turn to the physiology, developing being (especially in the early stages) has a hidden (neuter) singular points, whose activity leads to the formation of organs and tissues of the body. Известен эксперимент, в котором на крыле развивающейся бабочки удалялась одна-единственная чешуйка - в центре будущего концентрического узора, и узор не просто нарушался, он вообще не возникал. Known experiment in which the developing butterfly wing in removed one single scale - in the center of the future of a concentric pattern, and the pattern is not just broken, it does not arise. Иммунологи пользуются гипотезой о существовании в человеческом организме единственной клетки, ответственной за процессы кроветворения и иммунитета. Immunologists favor of the hypothesis of the existence of the human body the only cells responsible for the processes of hematopoiesis and immunity. Б. В. Болотов говорит о клетке-лидере. BV Bolotov said of the cell leaders. Органы внутренней секреции и нервные сплетения являются центрами поддержания и регуляции функций нашего организма, подобно "особым точкам фазовой плоскости" нашего физического благополучия. Bodies glands and nerve plexus are the centers of maintaining and regulating the functions of our body, like the "special points of the phase plane" of our physical well-being. Аналогичную роль выполняют чакры в эфирном теле, определяя его "конфигурацию" и особенности функционирования. A similar role is performed chakras in the etheric body, defining its "configuration" and operating features.

Физиологи и анатомы изучают центры нашего физического тела. Physiology and anatomy study centers of our physical body. Тому, что сенситивы видят (ощущают) чакры и иные образования эфирного тела, мы уже не удивляемся. Tom, that sensitives can see (feel) the chakras and other education etheric body, we are not surprised. Несколько неожиданными оказались результаты опытов, проводимых А.В.Букаловым с сотрудниками [6], подтвердившие наличие неких энергетических образований, вполне соответствующих функциям информационного метаболизма. Several unexpected were the results of experiments conducted by AV Bukalova and colleagues [6], confirmed the presence of certain power structures, it is relevant functions of information metabolism. Более того, их локализация в проекции на физическое тело соответствует их положению в ментальном и витальном кольцах модели А: витальные функции в области живота (что, в свою очередь, соотносится с витальным планом), ментальные - в области шеи и головы. Moreover, their localization in the projection on the physical body corresponds to their position in the mental and vital rings model A: the vital functions in the stomach area (which, in turn, is related to the vital plane), mental - in the neck and head.

Можно представить такую многослойную, просвечивающуюся картинку, где каждый слой соответствует определенному уровню, где нервные сплетения, чакры, ФИМ, иные образования словно проявляют в различных фазовых плоскостях непроявленные, скрытые особенности, присущие тому ядру внутри нас - Я, душе, монаде, надевшей на себя все эти оболочки, эти все более и более плотные одежды, позволяющие воплотиться и существовать в различных пространствах, использовать их в качестве инструментов. I can imagine a multi-layered, translucent image, where each layer corresponds to a level where the nerve plexus chakra, FIM, and some education like a show in different phase planes undeveloped, hidden features inherent to the core inside of us - I, soul, monad, who had put on themselves, all these shells, these increasingly tight clothing, to translate and exist in different spaces, use them as tools.

Интересно, что янтры (символы), соответствующие чакрам, имеют в своем начертании некоторые нумерологические признаки - число лепестков, окружающих центральное поле. Interestingly, yantras (symbols), corresponding to the chakras are in their mark some numerological signs - the number of petals surrounding a central field. С этим числом можно соотнести некую классификацию по тому же количеству признаков (некоторую типологию), например, чакре муладхаре с 4-мя лепестками, находящейся в зоне физического, соответствует, в частности, типология 4-х темпераментов, идущая от Гиппократа (сангвиники, холерики, флегматики и меланхолики), или классификация по типам телосложения. With this number can be correlated to a certain classification of the same number of characters (some typology), such as chakra Muladhara with 4 petals, located in the zone of physical, corresponds, in particular, a typology of 4 temperaments coming from Hippocrates (sanguine, choleric , phlegmatic and melancholic), or classification by type of physique. Чакра анахата с 12-ю лепестками определяет астрологическую типологию по основанию 12 (зодиак, восточный круг животных), но существуют и менее используемые типологии по основанию 6 и 10. Anahata Chakra with 12 petals astrological defines a typology of the base 12 (zodiac, eastern range of animals), but there are less used the typology of the base 6 and 10. Чакра вишудха представляет для нас наибольший интерес, поскольку отвечает за возможность построения 16-ти типных классификаций, с одной из которых и работает соционика [4]. Chakra vishudha represents for us the greatest interest, as responsible for the possibility of constructing a 16-tipnyh classifications, one of them and works socionics [4]. Существует классификация и более плотного уровня по основанию 2 - разделение полов, присущее большинству биологических видов. There is a classification and a more dense level of the base 2 - the separation of the sexes, inherent in most species.

Каждая типология наиболее четко разграничивает понятия, касающиеся именно своего уровня, своего плана, и бывает беспомощной на других уровнях. Each typology is most clearly defines the concepts related to it on its own level, its plan, and is helpless on the other levels. Так, если астрологическая типология по основанию 12 по своей семантике привязывается к чакре анахате, то наиболее сильной ее стороной является выделение различных проявлений эмоциональной сферы человека, особенностей его витальных и астральных мотивов и устремлений. So if astrology typology of the base 12 and its semantics is tied to the Anahata Chakra, the most powerful of its side is a selection of different manifestations of the emotional sphere of rights, especially its vital and astral motives and aspirations. Физиологи любят работать с классическими темпераментами, выделяя их не только у людей, подмечая взаимосвязь функциональных особенностей организма с особенностями нервной деятельности (но физиологии нервной деятельности). Physiologists like to work with the classical temperaments, singling them not only from people noticing the relationship of the functional characteristics of an organism with features of neural activity (but the physiology of nervous activity). А соционика, обращаясь с понятиями, семантически близкими уровню чакры вишудха, наилучшим образом отличает нюансы ментальной (и все же более рассудочной) деятельности человека, значительно хуже описывая эмоциональную окраску его действий или физиологические особенности. A Socionics, referring to the concepts which are semantically close to the level of chakra vishudha that best distinguishes the nuances of mental (and still more rational) human activity, much less emotional in describing his actions or physiological features.

Типологии по разным основаниям в определенном смысле независимы друг от друга: встречаются "Габены" холерики и "Габены" флегматики, мужчины и женщины принадлежат к одним соционическим типам, под одним зодиакальным созвездием, даже в один и тот же день рождаются люди разных соционических типов и различных темпераментов. Typologies for different reasons, in a sense independent of each other: there are "Gabeny" choleric and Gabeny "phlegmatic, men and women belong to one of Socionics types under one zodiacal constellations, even in the same day are born people of different types and socionic different temperaments. И в то же время все эти уровни влияют друг на друга: особенности ментальной деятельности мужчин и женщин, а в конечном счете их соционические характеристики, различны, но общие типные свойства сохраняются; холерический темперамент представителей двух различных ТИМов может иметь одинаковые проявления; у родившихся в одном знаке зодиака черты сходства могут проявляться ярче их соционического (ментального) различия. And at the same time, all these levels affect each other: particularly the mental activity of men and women, and ultimately their socionic characteristics are different, but the general tipnye properties are preserved; choleric temperament representatives of two different TIMov may have similar manifestations, in-born One sign of the zodiac similarities may appear brighter than their socionic (mental) differences.

Итак, мы должны признать, что предмет соционики принадлежит совершенно определенному (и не наивысшему) уровню ментального плана. So, we must recognize that the subject of Socionics belongs absolutely certain (and highest) level of the mental plane. Это уровень речи, слуха, второй сигнальной системы, уровень собственно разума, мышления, коммуникации, общения. This level of speech, hearing, the second signal system, the level of your own mind, thinking, communication, communication. Соционика наиболее сильна в описании явлений именно этого среза сознательной деятельности человека. Socionics is strongest in describing the phenomena of this particular slice of conscious human activity. Существуют более высокие уровни: мышление не связанное с речью, невербальные каналы общения. There are higher levels: thinking is not associated with speech, nonverbal communication channels. Но поскольку наш разум пытается охватить и интегрировать все пласты нашей психики, то и соционика в своей модели пытается "открыть представительства" на всех уровнях сознания. But since our mind is trying to capture and integrate all the layers of our psyche, then Socionics in his model tries to "open a representation" at all levels of consciousness. И, возможно, роль таких "полпредств" отводится определенным местам функций в модели А. And, perhaps, the role of such "embassy" is given a certain duty functions in the model A.

Дело в том, что говоря о витальном кольце модели, о витальных функциях, мы практически не сталкиваемся с собственно витальными - подсознательными реакциями. The fact is that in talking about the vital ring model of the vital functions, we do not face the fact vital - subconscious reactions. Это скорее предсознание, некие смутно, но все же осознаваемые реакции. Rather predsoznanie, some vague, but still conscious reaction. Человек, даже не знакомый с соционикой, но имеющий высокий уровень рефлексии, способен вполне дать отчет о своих действиях и их мотивах по аспектам витальных функций. The man did not even familiar with socionics, but having a high level of reflection, is able to fully to account for their actions and their motives on aspects of vital functions. Но в таком анализе он все же не сможет сравниться с тем, у кого эти функции развиты в ментальных блоках. But such an analysis, he still can not be compared with those who have these features developed in the mental block. Если нам удастся услышать беседу двух таких людей, то, будучи достаточно чуткими, мы уловим, что за рамками разговора осталось очень много недосказанного (с ментального блока) и невыразимого (с блока витального). If we can hear the conversation of two such people, then, being sufficiently sensitive, we caught that in the framework of conversation left a lot of things to discuss (with the mental block) and ineffable (to block vital). Диалог дуалов, который в буквальном восприятии кажется не несущим информации, не стыкующимся ("про Фому и про Ерему"), тем и замечателен, что эти области недосказанного и невыразимого чудесным образом перетекают друг в друга, нет необходимости все проговаривать, достаточно лишь намекнуть, нет нужды все прорисовывать, достаточно лишь обозначить. Dialogue duals, which in the literal perception does not seem to carry information, not stick (about Thomas and about Eremu "), and the remarkable fact that these areas of unspeakable things to discuss and miraculously into one another, and no need to pronounce, it is sufficient only to hint do not need all the draws, we need only designate.

Но, обратившись к функциям ментального блока, мы замечаем, что и здесь все не так просто. But, turning to the functions of the mental block, we notice that here is not that simple. Об аспектах первой функции говорить не так уж легко - слишком свернута, спрессованна информация, ее просто не успеть развернуть за сколько-нибудь разумное время. On aspects of the first function to speak not so easy - too discouraged, spressovanna information, it simply did not have time to deploy for any reasonable time. Поэтому мы чаще оставляем больший кусок в тени, и только "тождик" или "родственник" способен его там рассмотреть: им-то слова не нужны, им самим приходится откалывать по камешку от той же глыбы. Therefore, we usually leave a bigger piece in the shadows, and only "tozhdik" or "relative" is able to consider it there: they are certain words are not needed, they themselves have to get off stone by stone from the same block.

Вторая функция оказывается в более выгодном положении. The second function is in a better position. Это уже не спутанный клубок ниток - за какой конец ни потяни - не знаешь, куда придешь. This is not the tangle of threads - for what end or pull - do not know where to come. Нет, тут аккуратненький моточек: покатился - вот тебе и дорожка. No, this is neat motochek: rolled - that is the path. "Хотите, мы все вам расскажем на этом языке, а не хотите - на том". "Do you want to, we will tell you in that language, but do not want to - on that. Словарный запас тут - подспорье в изложении - речь течет плавно, широко, полноводно. The vocabulary here - an aid in the presentation - it runs smoothly, well, deeper. И перевод с языка образов и смутных ощущений на собственно язык - прост и естествен. I translate from the language of images and a vague feeling in their own language - simple and natural.

А третья функция уже не дает такой свободы. A third function is no longer gave such freedom. Ее язык очень беден синонимами и оттенками, но зато предельно конкретен и точен - это словарь, а не поэма. Its language is very poor synonyms and shades, but very specific and accurate - this dictionary, not a poem. Лаконизм же четвертой функции способен другие ТИМы привести в замешательство. Conciseness is the fourth function is capable of other TIMy confusing.

Функции витального кольца еще труднее переводят свой "внутренний язык" в общепонятную речь. The functions of the vital ring even more difficult to translate their "inner language" in the commonly understood language.

Анализ этих явлений породил понятие размерности функции, или представление о разных векторах, составляющих механизм действия разных функций. Analysis of these phenomena has created the concept of dimension functions, or of the various vectors that make up the mechanism of action of different functions. Оба эти понятия достаточно изящно описывают разницу в восприятии различными ТИМами одних и тех же аспектов мира. Both of these concepts are quite elegantly describe the difference in the perception of different TIMami the same aspects of the world. Для нас же сейчас принципиально другое: на уровне нашей сознательной, мыслительной деятельности, на том уровне, которым, собственно, и занимается соционика, функции информационного метаболизма являются проекциями особых энерго-информационных образований различных уровней. For us it is fundamentally different: at the level of our conscious, intellectual activity, at a level which, in fact, engaged in Socionics, an information metabolism are the projections of the special energy-information education at various levels. Чем "глубже" ("ниже") этот уровень, тем "меньше размерность" функции или "слабее эта функция", чем "выше" (ближе к плоскости проекции), тем "больше размерность", тем "более развита" эта функция в ТИМе. What is "deeper" (below) this level, the "less than the dimension" function or "weaker than the function" rather than "above" (closer to the plane of projection), the "large dimension", the "more developed" this function in Thieme. Чем длиннее путь проекции, тем больше искажение, тем менее полно соционика описывает функционирование ТИМа по данному аспекту. The longer the projection path, the greater the distortion, the less full socionics describes the functioning of TIM on this aspect.

Итак, для нас принципиальными являются следующие моменты: Thus, the principal for us are the following:

1. 1. существуют различные планы человеческого сознания; There are various plans of human consciousness; 2. 2. уровни (и планы) взаимодействуют друг с другом, словно просвечивают один через другой; levels (and plans) interact with each other, like a translucent one over the other; 3. 3. соционика имеет дело с определенным пластом ментального плана; Socionics is dealing with a particular layer of the mental plane; 4. 4. на каждом уровне соответствующего плана существуют свои типологии; each level of the plan has its own typology; 5. 5. типы в типологии дискретны. types in the typology of discrete. Последнее положение требует некоторого пояснения. The latter provision requires some explanation. Человек (в норме) имеет генетически заданный пол, особенности телосложения и функционирования систем организма, которые выделяются методами физиологии. Person (normally) has a genetically defined sex, especially the constitution and functioning of body systems, which were isolated by physiology. Он рождается в определенный момент, и это задает его астральный тип. He was born at a certain point, and this gives him an astral type. Он принадлежит к одному типу ИМ. He belongs to one type of IM. И, при этом, он не исчерпывается ни одним из типологических описаний, ни какой бы то ни было их комбинацией. And, while it is not limited by any of the typological descriptions, or whatever it was their combination. Типы всех типологий суть координаты некоторого многомерного пространства, а человек представляется в этом пространстве некотором многомерным объемом, и все те заданности, о которых было сказано чуть выше, есть лишь проекции на соответствующие оси координат. Types of typologies are the coordinates of a multidimensional space, and the person appears in this space, some multi-dimensional volume, and all those assignments, which are mentioned just above, there is only a projection on the corresponding coordinate axis.

Длительное время обсуждается вопрос о возможности перехода из типа в тип. For a long time discussing the possibility of transition from type to type. Одна из сторон этого вопроса связана с особенностями любого рода проектирования: имея проекции на все координатные оси, мы рассматриваем лишь ту, которая, в силу выбранных нами критериев, имеет наибольшее значение. One aspect of this issue is connected with the peculiarities of any kind of design: having a projection on all axes, we consider only the one which, because of our chosen criteria that matter most. Чем более "объемный", сложный человек перед нами, тем менее полным будет такой взгляд на него. The more "volume", a complex man in front of us, the less complete will be a look at him. Другая сторона сродни проблеме вживания в образ у актеров. The other side is akin to the problem vzhivaniya in the image at the actors. Если у человека принадлежность, например, к астральному типу подчеркивает эмоциональность, то даже будучи логиком в соционической классификации, он чаще и проще, чем прочие логики, будет использовать эмоциональное воздействие на других (разного рода "этические штучки"). If a person belongs, such as the astral type emphasizes emotion, even as a logician in socionic classification, it is more likely and easier than other logic that will use the emotional impact on others (a different kind of "ethical things"). Если же на разных планах повторяются одни и те же черты (а наши возможности в их дифференциации ограничены хотя бы потому, что не безграничен наш язык), то такому человеку труднее "выскочить из типа", сыграть другой тип ИМ (хотя такая черта - способность к перевоплощению - тоже может стать типным признаком). If, however, on different planes repeated the same traits (and our ability to differentiate is limited, if only because that is not infinite, our language), then such a person difficult to "jump out of the type" to play a different type of infarction (although such a feature - the ability to to reincarnation - may also become tipnym sign).

В порядке отступления. By way of derogation. Очень интересными бывают попытки актера сыграть человека другого ТИМа (надо сказать, что, к чести режиссеров, они довольно точно подбирают на роли именно нужные типы, в тех ситуациях, где типные особенности достаточно выражены). Very interesting are the attempts of another actor to play a human TIM (I should say that, to the credit of directors, they fairly accurately pick up on the role of types is needed in situations where tipnye features quite pronounced). Зрителю, в случае несовпадения, часто приходит в голову, что события так тоже могли бы развиваться, но в их ходе есть некоторая натяжка, искусственность, игра. The audience, if different, often comes to mind, so that events could also develop, but in their course have some stretch, the artificiality of the game. Еще интереснее, когда, например, пьесу, написанную о героях из одной квадры, ставит другая (еще лучше - ортогональная) квадра. Even more interesting, when, for example, a play written about the heroes of a quadra, put another (even better - orthogonal) squares. В этих ситуациях постановщики часто идут к явному гротеску, шаржированию, иначе очень трудно осмыслить мотивы и логику поступков героев. In these situations, directors often come to a clear grotesque, sharzhirovaniyu, otherwise very difficult to comprehend the motives and logic of the actions of heroes. Да, достаточно лабильный, способный к перевоплощению, вживанию в образ, наблюдательный человек может изобразить, сыграть реакции, присущие другому ТИМу, но это лишь игра, которая не может длиться вечно. Yes, quite labile, capable of reincarnation, vzhivaniyu in the image, observant person can portray, to play the reaction specific to another Tim, but it's only a game that can not last forever.

В этом свете можно рассмотреть и проблему подтипов: не пытаемся ли мы очень часто выдать за подтипы ТИМов это "просвечивание" других уровней, ведь оно неизбежно будет сказываться и на построении соционических отношений. In this light, we can consider the problem of subtypes: do not try we often pass for subtypes TIMov a "translucence" of other levels, because it will inevitably have implications on the construction of socionic relations. Астральные влияния уже рассматриваются (Шульман) и существенно дополняют соционический анализ при разборе конкретных, жизненных ситуаций. Astral effects already discussed (Shulman) and substantially complement socionic analysis when examining specific, everyday situations. Также важным представляется аспект доминирования различных центров. Also important is the aspect of the dominance of the various centers.

Наблюдения показывают, что у дуальных супружеских пар с одним доминирующим центром процесс дуализации может столкнуться с проблемами на других, недоминантных планах. Observations show that the dual couples with one dominant center of the process of dualization may face problems in the other, nedominantnyh plans. Так, например, для пары с доминантой третьего (ментального) центра может оказаться затрудненным собственно эмоциональное общение, - люди жалуются, что при полном понимании друг друга не находят живого естественного отклика, ищут большей теплоты и задушевности. For example, for couples with a dominant third (mental) of the center may be impeded proper emotional communication - people complain that a full understanding of each other are not living a natural response, seek a greater warmth and intimacy. При доминировании второго (витального) центра могут не сразу гладко складываться именно физические, близкие взаимодействия, но имеет место глубокая душевная, эмоциональная связь, сохраняющаяся даже на расстоянии. With the dominance of the second (vital), the center could not immediately smooth shape is natural, close interaction, but there is a profound spiritual, emotional connection that even at a distance. В паре с доминантой первого (физического) центра часто неудовлетворенными оказываются ментальные потребности: трудно понять интересы, цели и дальние планы другого, хотя повседневная жизнь складывается благополучно. In tandem with a dominant first (physical) center are often unmet mental needs: it is difficult to understand the interests, goals and long-range plans for another, although daily life consists safely. Если же у дуалов доминируют разные центры, то картина иногда, как ни странно, смягчается, не находящие отклика внутри диады запросы обращаются вовне - к родным, друзьям, знакомым, социуму; если же этого "экстравертирования" не происходит, то отношения могут, напротив, резко обостриться. If you have duals dominated by different centers, the picture sometimes, oddly enough, is softened which have no response within a dyad inquiries turn outward - to family, friends, society, but if this "ekstravertirovaniya" does not occur, then the relationship may, on the contrary dramatically worsen. И все эти варианты - лишь оттенки дуальных отношений, которые партнерами расцениваются как вполне хорошие, но не идеальные. And all these options - only shades of dual relationships that partners are regarded as quite good, but not ideal. Реальный человек всегда выдает помимо сигналов собственно соционического уровня (чего ждет его дуал) прочие сигналы, определяемые, например, его астрологическим типом, темпераментом или иными особенностями. A real man always gives out signals in addition to the actual socionic level (which is waiting for its dual), other signals are defined, for example, his astrological type, temperament or other characteristics.

Возможно, что собственно ментальные подтипы, т.е. It is possible that the actual mental subtypes, ie связанные с особенностями деятельности разума, мы видим гораздо реже, чем все вышеперечисленные варианты - целостная природа человека неизмеримо богаче любого набора классифицирующих признаков. associated with the peculiarities of the mind, we see much less often than all of the above options - holistic nature of man is immeasurably richer than any set of classifying attributes.

Если многообразие проявлений различных людей в одном и том же типе столь велико, то закономерен вопрос: для чего же нужны эти типы и не было ли их выделение результатом некоего произвольного волевого (или мыслительного) усилия. If the manifold manifestations of different people in the same type of so great a logical question: why did we need these types and whether their selection was the result of a random strong-willed (or thinking) effort. То, что методы факторного анализа подтверждают наличие 16-ти типов личности, не устраняет вопроса: "зачем?". The fact that the methods of factor analysis confirm the presence of 16 personality types, does not eliminate the question: "Why?". Вероятно, затем, чтобы каждый тип выполнял свою особую, специфическую роль. Perhaps, then, that for each type, its special, specific role. Откуда же могла возникнуть такая специализация? Whence could such a specialization? Нельзя ли сказать, что некоторые из этих ролей лучше (нужнее, полезней, удобней), а другие - хуже? Can we say that some of these roles better (get a useful, convenient), and others - worse?

Вернемся опять к шкале уровней и типологий. Returning again to the scale levels and typologies. Первичное разбиение на 2: "+" и "-", мужское и женское. Primary partition into 2: "+" and "-" male and female. Выкрики сторонников (сторонниц) эмансипации или феминизации будут слышны еще долго. Shouts supporters (supporters), or the feminization of emancipation will be heard for a long time. Но вопрос оказывается более глубоким: признавая равноправие, равноценность, равнозначность полов, нельзя закрывать глаза на существование асимметрии. But the question is more profound: recognizing equality, equivalence, equivalence of the sexes, one can not ignore the existence of asymmetry. Известно: на создание женской гаметы идет значительно больше энергии, чем для мужской; мужских зигот достоверно больше чем женских; мальчиков рождается 105 на сотню девочек, но в дальнейших возрастах число уравнивается, а после 60 лет перевес женщин заметен уже и без статистики. It is well known: the creation of female gametes is much more energy than for men, male zygotes significantly more than women, 105 boys are born for a hundred girls, but in later ages the number of calls, but after 60 years, the preponderance of women is evident and no statistics. Что это, если не яркое выражение явной асимметрии? What is it, if not clearly expressed a clear asymmetry?

Иной пример: меланхоликов меньше чем флегматиков, холериков или сангвиников. A different example: less than melancholic phlegmatic, choleric or sanguine. Еще пример: и в течение года, и по месяцам, и в течение суток существуют подъемы и спады рождаемости. Another example: in the year, and for months, and within days there are ups and downs of fertility. Анализировались даты рождения многих видных ученых - явная асимметрия в распределении по годам и в течение года. We analyzed birth dates of many eminent scientists - is a clear asymmetry in the distribution by year and within a year. Да и в народной медицине накоплены многочисленные рекомендации, привязанные к различным временным периодам. Yes, and in folk medicine has accumulated numerous recommendations that are linked to different time periods. Не известны аналогичные исследования в типологии по основанию 16 - они были бы чрезвычайно трудоемкими, но что подобная асимметрия может иметь место - вполне допустимо предположить. There are no known similar studies in the typology of the base of 16 - they would be extremely time consuming, but that this asymmetry can take place - it is quite possible to assume.

Все типы равны, но их роли асимметричны. All types are equal, but their roles are asymmetrical.

В нашем асимметричном (в физическом смысле) мире социон также имеет асимметричную "конфигурацию" и потому роли одних типов проявлены, а других - скрыты, находятся словно по ту сторону нашей реальности, и в чисто социальном смысле непроявлены. In our asymmetric (in the physical sense) the world socion also has an asymmetric "configuration" and therefore the role of one kind of manifest, and others - are hidden, are like on the other side of our reality, and in a purely social sense neproyavleny. Подтверждение этому мы обнаруживаем в совершенно неожиданной области - в магической практике мексиканских индейцев фигурирует Команда Нагваля из 16-ти членов, описание ролей которых удивительно совпадает с соционическими описаниями ТИМов [11]. Confirmation of this we find in an unexpected area - in the magical practices of Mexican Indians appeared Nagual team of 16 members, a description of roles which surprisingly coincides with the descriptions socionic TIMov [11]. Цель, к которой они стремятся, может быть достигнута только совместным действием [15]. The purpose for which they seek can only be achieved by the joint action [15].

Признавая за каждым типом ИМ особую, выделенную роль не только в соционе, но и в Мире, нельзя не задаться вопросом о тех механизмах, которые наделяют человека ТИМом. In recognition of each type of them by themselves, highlighted the role not only in socion, but in the world, it is impossible not to wonder about the mechanisms that confer rights Tim. То, что новорожденный обладает определенным, но еще не проявленным, не обнаруживаемым обычными методами, ТИМом, было убедительно доказано в работе Букалова [2]. The fact that the newborn has a certain, but not yet manifested, not detectable by conventional methods, Tim, has been convincingly demonstrated in Bukalova [2]. На основании анализа исследований С.Грофа, в ней сделаны выводы, что фиксация в памяти, в психике индивидуума определенных фаз его перинатального развития является решающим фактором в формировании его типа ИМ. Based on analysis of studies S. Grof, it concluded that the fixation in the memory, in the psyche of the individual certain phases of its prenatal development is a crucial factor in shaping the type of IM. Но должен существовать какой-то механизм, выбирающий те моменты из 9-месячной истории развития плода, которые окажутся самыми важными, самыми "запоминающимися". But there must be some mechanism that selects the points of the 9-month history of fetal development, which would be the most important, the most "memorable." Особенно странными при этом кажутся факты, что ни объективный ход беременности (анализируемый с медицинской точки зрения), ни самочувствие матери не отражают сколько-нибудь полно (за исключением случаев значительных отклонений от нормы) состояние психики плода. Especially when it seems strange that neither the objective course of pregnancy (analyzed from the medical point of view), or being a mother does not reflect any complete (except in cases of significant deviation from the norm) state of mind of the fetus. Остается предположить, что уже при зачатии задается некоторый кармический сценарий, который вначале "проигрывается" в перинатальном периоде, определяя узловые его моменты, а затем становится скрытым движителем всей дальнейшей жизни человека. One could assume that even at conception is given some karmic script that initially "played" in the perinatal period, determining its nodal points, and then becomes a hidden engine of the entire future of human life. Подтверждением этому могут служить (пока немногочисленные) примеры совпадения целых "кармических блоков" в судьбах людей, принадлежащих к одному ТИМу. Proof of this can be (so far few) examples of coincidence entire "karmic blocks in the fate of people belonging to the same Tim.

К этому же вопросу можно подойти и с другой стороны, используя "сценарный анализ" Э.Берна [10]. The same question can be approached from the other side, using the "scenario analysis" Eric Berne [10]. Есть факты, говорящие о том, что сценарии различных людей одного ТИМа содержат очень похожие сцены, картины, действия. There are facts which show that the scenario of different people one TIM contain very similar scenes, pictures, actions. Если еще учесть, что мировая драматургия знает лишь 16 различных сюжетов, а все ее разнообразие - различные их производные и комбинации, то мысль о сценарии жизни и карме ТИМа покажется не столь уж нелепой. If you still consider that the world knows drama, only 16 different subjects, and all its diversity - the various derivatives and combinations, then thought about the scenario of life and the karma of TIM did not seem quite so ridiculous.

И тут в наших рассуждениях можно сделать еще один шаг: осознание своего типа ИМ, освобождение от жизненного сценария и искупление кармы суть проблемы взаимосвязанные. And here in our reasoning can make one more step: awareness of its type infarction, freedom from life-script and the redemption of karma are interrelated problems.

Мы рассматривали типологии на различных уровнях сознания и при этом обошли супраментальный уровень. We examined the typology of the different levels of consciousness and thus bypassed supramental level. Вопрос о существовании какой-либо типологии этого уровня представляется чрезвычайно тонким - о закономерностях этого плана можно судить лишь со слов тех, кто достиг этих высот. The question of the existence of a typology of this level is extremely thin - about the laws of this plan can only be judged from the words of those who have reached these heights. Но, вероятно, некие различия есть и там. But perhaps there are some differences there. Спускаясь же на низшие уровни, просветленные (аватары, риши, йоги...) неизбежно пользуются одним из существующих на этом уровне каналов передачи информации (на соционическом уровне - это ТИМ, на физическом - конкретное физическое тело). Going down the same at lower levels, enlightened (avatars, Rishi, yoga ...) necessarily enjoy one of the existing at this level of information channels (for socionic level - a TIM, the physical - the specific physical body). И человеку, чтобы открыть путь, необходимо осознать все инструменты, которыми он пользуется на различных уровнях взаимодействия с Миром. And the man to open the way to realize all of the tools which he uses at different levels of interaction with the world.