Talk:Shūkyō nisei

Article title

@Penerrantry: Hi. Thanks for your effort of creating this article, my issue is the title and translation of 宗教二世. I don't think it's a good idea to mix English and Japanese Romaji unless the phrase has already been in widespread use. The English version of NPR, Mainichi and Japan Times use "second generation" for translating "nisei", so I think it's more appropriate to change the title to "second-generation follower". -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 04:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sameboat. Thanks for your comment. I think "nisei" has already been incorporated in the US English lexicon, like "karaoke" and "sushi." This is a Wiki Education project. I will discuss this issue with the participants on Monday and let you know the result. Penerrantry (talk) 04:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sameboat, we discussed revising the title. We'd like to maintain the current one for two reasons. (1) "Nisei" is a well-known word in the US; (2) we don't discuss second-generation followers in general, but only those in Japan, which is clearly indicated by "nisei." Thanks for editing the draft. We like your edits a lot, especially in the lead section. We think the last sentence (about 祝福二世) intervenes in the smooth flow. Isn't it better to move it to a footnote? Penerrantry (talk) 05:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I am afraid I need more editors to get involved in this discussion, so I started a new topic on Village pump (policy). On the other hand, may you explain who you're discussing with? I'd like to mind you that if you're editing Wikipedia article on behalf of a specific organization, you're obligated to disclose that relationship publicly according to our Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline. If the past edits involved other Wikipedia users, please list their wiki user names. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 06:24, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a Wiki Education project. https://wikiedu.org/teach-with-wikipedia/ The translation is a collective effort of the participating course, which is legitimate. Penerrantry (talk) 03:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Penerrantry, I don't think "nisei" is as incorporated into English as you think it is. I for one never heard of the phrase until seeing this article, and I have an interest in religious topics. It's certainly not as widespread as "karaoke" or "sushi." Relinus (talk) 14:05, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I believe the term is most often used (in English contexts) to the internment of Japanese Americans during the Second World War. The term is used throughout the Wikipedia article on the topic, although an explanation of the term is given in the lead.

That being said, I'm not sure if the use of Nisei is appropriate here – especially as most of the reliable sources translate the term into English, and I agree it is not as integrated into mainstream English as karaoke or sushi – but this is worth bearing in mind.—QueenofBithynia (talk) 21:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Yes I like how the internment of Japanese Americans article makes it clear what Nisei means the first time it uses the word; it feels like this article's author(s) are writing for readers who already have a level of familiarity with Japanese religion/culture/language. As for this article's title, I agree that it should either be fully English (second-generation follower) or fully Japanese (shukyo nisei) since it seems to be focusing exclusively on the Japanese use of the phrase and not the general concept of the children of religious converts. Relinus (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@Penerrantry, Relinus, and QueenofBithynia: As many of us have stated already "religion nisei" is an original research, and Wikipedia is strongly against this practice. Unless Penerrantry can provide actual reliable source to back Penerrantry's prefered title (instead of a group of Penerrantry's unspeakable contributors), then I will revert the title back to romaji version. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 13:00, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Someone shanged the title to "Shukyo nisei," and we restored the original title. This article is a translation of the Japanese Wikipedia article "Shukyo nisei." We did no research on the topic and did not add any extra information. We prefer the title "Relegion nisei" because "nisei" is already incorporated into American English (probably more so in the western US than the eastern half because of the Japanese American internment during World War II). "Religion second generation" is also possible; however, "Shukyo nisei" is undoubtedly incomprehensible for most English speakers. Penerrantry (talk) 13:24, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you properly understand the concept of "wp:original research" within the framework of Wikipedia. You can and should "research" the subject thoroughly when editing the article. What Wikipedia opposes is inserting unsourced idea into the article. "Religion nisei" (not "nisei") as a whole is nowhere to be found in any reliable source. "Shukyo nisei" on the hand actually appears in professional sources with slightly varying English translations, that's why I prefer to keep the romaji for the entire phrase. Since you have demonstrated your failure to comprehend basic editorial guidelines of Wikipedia, unless you can provide actual source to support the academic use of "religion nisei" (not "nisei" I must stress again), another rollback to the "religion nisei" title would leave me no choice but to report you to the wp:administrators' noticeboard for misconduct. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 14:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be consensus, with the exception of Penerrantry, around Shukyo nisei. I support reverting to that title. As for Penerrantry's issue with the title, while it's true that the average reader would likely not know what "Shukyo nisei" means, that's what the article is for, and the definition is clearly stated in the first paragraph. Relinus (talk) 14:05, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Unreasonable Dogma

"Many are suffering from being forced to accept unreasonable religious dogmas. Examples include prohibitions on watching television, reading manga, attending a friend’s birthday party, freely expressing love with the opposite sex, visiting temples and shrines of other religions, and participating in other religions’ events, such as Christmas."

While I think these prohibitions ought to be listed at some point; there are not at all "unreasonable" by any means within a religious upbringing. Better examples of unreasonable would include the drinking of blood mixed with wine. 68.114.225.218 (talk) 00:32, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I have some WP:NPOV concerns with this article to be honest. It may need some heavy rewrites, especially by someone familiar with the subject matter, which I unfortunately am not really. I took a stab at fixing the sentence you mentioned though.

EDIT: Also, it would be nice to have some English language sources, I'm unable to check information with the sources provided. - Relinus (talk) 01:50, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately English reliable source on this matter prior to Abe's assassination is practically non-existent. I can inspect the cited Japanese sources in case you want to verify if the language used in this article adheres to the sources, as long as you tell me which specific source you want me to check. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 10:40, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Regarding your revision of "freely expressing love with the opposite sex", this probably comes from the NHK source "学校行事であっても異性と手をつなぐことも", literally it means "holding hand with the opposite gender [is forbidden] even during school event", so it doesn't really suggest sexual intercourse, but banning any close body contact. Although having said that the Unification Church does forbid premarital sexual intercourse (婚前交渉) (this report specifically interviewed a shukyo nisei to give his account about the UC's doctrines on sex.) -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 11:04, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I looked and the edit history and I see you've already gone through and improved the article, so that gives me more confidence in it. I don't have any particular sources for you to look at.

I changed the phrasing to "physical contact with the opposite gender" would you say that gives an accurate impression of the source? Or maybe "physical contact of a sexual nature with the opposite gender"? Relinus (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

This is good enough. Thank you. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 00:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Clarification

Neither of the sources mentioned murder and suicide crisis (which was ongoing at the time), but I don't know how that plays into the assassination. Was he shot because of the crisis and his ties to the church? AFAIK the crisis didnt play a role in it DarmaniLink (talk) 06:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this edit by anon 175.143.59.4 (talk · contribs) was what derailed the neutrality of this article. I should have reverted it much earlier instead of waited until now. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 09:34, 9 October 2023 (UTC)