Talk:Sephardic Jewish cuisine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Bibliography

The following titles were simply translated into English along with the rest of the original Spanish article (see discussion topic "Translation" following). They are references that exist only in Spanish and are not accessible to Englsh-speakers. They should be removed unless someone has a compelling reason why not to:

• Abecasis de Castiel, Mimí, Ed., “My prescriptions of the Sephardic kitchen”, Area of Culture of the City Council of Malaga (2002)
• Cohen, Rivka, Ed. “The Pleasures of my Jewish Kitchen in the Sephardic Tradition”, Parsifal
• Juderías, Red, Ed., “Recipe book of the Sephardic kitchen”. (2001)
• Uriel Macías Kapón “The Jewish kitchen. Sephardi Laws, Customs… and some Prescriptions”

Chefallen (talk) 22:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I will remove them. Chefallen (talk) 04:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

• Jawhara Piñer, Hélène, “Sephardi: Cooking the History. Recipes of the Jews of Spain and the Diaspora from the 13th century to Today”, Boston: Cherry Orchard, 2021. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hélène Jawhara Piñer (talk • contribs) 21:43, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Translation

This article a translation of the Spanish version of this page. Please move over refrences if you can, and edit the poor grammar that exists. Hopefully, we can see a specific article on the cuisine of Ashkenazi Jews soon, as well as others. Epson291 07:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Poorly written

This article is poorly written and the content is very insubstantial. Serious rewriting is required.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gilabrand (talk • contribs) 09:37, 8 June 2007.

Please sign your posts on talk pages. Epson291 14:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

True. The article should not be about how Sephardic cuisine compares to Ashkenazic cuisine as this is predjudicial and a classic convention of Ashkenazic teaching. The article is about Sephardic cuisine in its own right. Information on the article needs to be based solely on the merit of Sephardic cuisine, not how it compares to Ashkenazic cuisine. Alternativehushhush (talk) 18:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The statement, "In recent decades, it has become politically correct to differentiate between this community and other non-Ashkenazi Jews." is completely inaccurate. Political correctness has nothing to do with it. This again, is vandalism to continually replace such inaccurate material on this page. Stop it. Please. It is not accurate to not distinguish between a wide swath of people. Ethiopians, Mizrahim, Sepharadim are different people. Just because you are not White and Eastern European or Central/Northern European does not mean you are not entitled to an identity. Alternativehushhush (talk) 18:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Sephardi and Ashkenazi cuisine: similarities

Like Jewish cuisine everywhere, Sephardi cuisine was influenced by the laws of kashrut and the observance of Jewish holidays, with its array of symbolic foods. Although Judaism spread throughout the world, most Jewish communities abided by a core of religious law that was universal: They kept kosher, observed Shabbat and celebrated Jewish holidays. Like Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews maintained the separation between meat and milk, ate only kosher meat, and developed cooking techniques that allowed them to eat a hot meal on Shabbat. They ate a pre-fast meal before Yom Kippur, foods fried in oil on Hanukkah and matzah on Passover. But it was the local culture of the lands where they lived that shaped the finer details.

This paragraph was deleted for the following reasons. 1. It is predjudicial in that it forces attention away from the topic of Sephardic cuisine onto Ashkenazic cuisine as if Sephardic cuisine may not stand on its own merit, and must be compared to Ashkenazic cuisine. 2. It is redundant. All the information appears elsewhere on the page. 3. It is misleading. The tense of the paragrah is all in the past tense as if to say Sepharadim used to do this, and somehow, the hundreds of thousands of Sepharadim alive now, no longer do this when in fact, many if not most do. 4. It keeps re-appearing on the page. This is a problem as it is forcing misinformation on the public.

Please stop replacing this paragraph on the page. It is offensive. Alternativehushhush (talk) 18:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

This one also "==Sephardi and Ashkenazi cuisine: differences== Coming from the Mediterranean and "sunny" climes, Sephardi cuisine is lighter in character than Ashkenazi cuisine, with an emphasis on salads, stuffed vegetables and vine leaves, olive oil, lentils, fresh and dried fruits, herbs and nuts, and chickpeas. Meat dishes often make use of lamb or ground beef. Fresh lemon juice is added to many soups and sauces. Many meat and rice dishes incorporate dried fruits such as apricots, prunes and raisins. Pine nuts are used as a garnish." was changed to reflect the above statements. Alternativehushhush (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Poorly written 2

Could the author(s) verify in the end of 1st paragraph: why "burghul" and not bulgur or bulghur for "(cracked wheat)?!". 1. Bulgur is processed wheat coming in varieties (See c,ig ko"fte bulguru, bulgur pilavi, etc.) 2. By the way, so called "cracked wheat"?! is usually yarma in Turkish, I think ke+s-cedilla+kek (keshkek)pilavi is a good example of it. Burgul would come from twisted buruk burma etc, and may be just a mistake on the article. wikici

The spelling is fine. Google it and you will see.--Gilabrand (talk) 13:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

name of this article

The name of this article should be "Sephardi Jewish Cuisine." Does anyone know how to change it?--Gilabrand 10:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The Yemanite Cuisine must be Placed under (Jewish) "Yemenite Cuisine" section first and foremost since it is not "Sephardic Cuisine". --Elias19 21:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yemenite Jewish Cuisine

Yemanite Jews are neither Ashkenazim nor Sepharadim. Yemenites are their own unique Rite with separate customs and liturgies.

I don't see why they haven't got their own section labeled: "Jewish Yemenite Cuisine"

Lahouh, Salouf, chilbeh, Jahnoun, Kubaneh, Malawah, Zalabiya, Yemenite soup, Hawayj, Skhug etc... are all unique To Yemenite Jews and not to Sepharadim, so I don't understand what they are doing here. Their Cuisine is distinctive from that of both Askenazic and Sephardic cuisines.

If there is anyone who would like to help create Jewish Yemenite Cuisine by moving various parts of this article and creating the new page let me know I would like to help.

--Elias19 22:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Sephardic is often (ab)used in English to mean "anything not Ashkenazi". We could call it "Cuisine of the Mizrahi Jews", but that would leave out Moroccans, Tunisians, etc. The alternative is to use "Oriental Jews", "Jews from Arab lands", or the controversial "Arab Jews" label. nadav (talk) 22:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

TO "Nadav1":

What you said is inaccurate, First of all Jews from Arab lands are known as "Mustarabim". Just as Jews who have lived in the territory of today's Greece are known as Romaniotes (Romaniotim) And Spanish and Portuguese Jews are are respectively Sepharadim and Portugesim. The Fact that in Israel they decided to LUMP ALL OF THEM TOGETHER doesn't mean that they are the same and that you could make broad swathing statements about them. Secondly about Moroccan and Tunisian Jews there are Mustarabim Jews amongst Moroccans and Tunisians With names like: Amsellem, Ohana, Ouaknine etc... that reflect their Mustarabi heritage, while there are also Moroccan and Tunisian Jews with Sephardic heritage which you can see in their family names like Mendez, Castro, Toledano (one from Toledo), Marciano, ESPECIALLY THOSE FROM SPANISH MOROCCO (Tangier for example). Haketia (also written as Hakitia or Haquitía) is a largely extinct Jewish-Moroccan language, also known as Djudeo Spañol or Ladino Occidental (western Ladino), that was spoken on the Northeast coast of Morocco... It is not correct to say Lets lump them all together, to put The Jews of say India and Turkey in the same category when they are extremely different. Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Greece, Turkey along with many other places were strongly influenced by the arrival of Sepharadim to their communities and therefore it is correct that they are placed "with Sephardic Cuisine" since many of them adopted the Sephardi customs and cuisine, however the Yemenites did not receive the Heavily Sephardic Influence which the other middle eastern Jews did. I Don't agree with Arab Jews because there Spanish, Portuguese, Romaniotes and even Ashkenazim amongst these Jews, even though they live in Arab countries they are not ethnic Arabs. --Elias19 19:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

All information about Yemenite Jews on this page is not deleted, rather moved to the page Cuisine of the Mizrahi Jews, as clearly and accurately stated above, Yemenite Jews are not Sephardic. They have no connection ethinically with Sephardic Jews as the Sephardim never settled in Yemen. Alternativehushhush (talk) 17:48, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The above comment by myself also includes the removal of Yemenite dishes from the list of special dishes, and transferring them to the page Cuisine of the Yemenite Jews. Alternativehushhush (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Translation II - grammar/tenses

The opening paragraph is written in the past tense which seems inappropriate: the subject references the basic laws of kashrut, which still apply. I'll review and revise the article where needed as soon as I have the opportunity (unless anyone seriously objects). Plutonium27 (talk) 10:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The past tense is appropriate when speaking of how a cuisine developed. --Gilabrand (talk) 11:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge from Cuisine of the Mizrahi Jews into this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was Do not merge into Cuisine of the Mizrahi Jews. -- Sreifa (talk) 05:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

---

• Please discuss the proposed merge below this line --Zlerman (talk) 05:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

This page should not be merged with Cuisine of the Sephardic Jews. Sephardic Jewish cuisine is distinct, and has different origins than that of Mizrahi Jews. For example, no where in places where Sephardic Jews did not settle after the explusion of Spanish Inquisition will you find dishes such as bunyuelos because they are solely the cuisine of Iberian Jews. This page was created out of the misinformation on the Cuisine of the Sephardic Jews page. The cuisine of Jews from Yemen, India, Iran (Persia), Georgia, Uzbekistan and other countries is not Sephardic Cuisine, and does not belong on the Cuisine of Sephardic Jews page. Avigayilneshama (talk) 00:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I am currently adding many references, updates and clarifications to the page of Cuisine of the Mizrahi Jews. It is very important to note the difference in the two communities. Simply put, Mizrahi Jews, and Sephardic Jews have mutually exclusive origins, and while there is overlap because of the Sephardic Diaspora, Sephardic Jews did not settle in any significant numbers or even at all in many of the countries of the Mizrach(Orient). Some such countries are Uzbekisatan, Georgia, India, Persia, Iraq, the Caucasus, Kurdistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen. Some groups did arive in the orient in more or fewer numbers, and in some cases were completely absorbed into the local population.

On the other hand, Jews of Spain did settle in countries not considered part of the Mizrach and their cuisines are covered in the page on Cuisine of the Sephardic Jews. Some such places are the Caribbean, Holland, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, Italy and other countries.

I hope this clarifies the difference. 69.118.192.90 (talk) 03:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Do not merge. These are two different groups with a different history, different languages and different cuisines. We should not let the popular, yet completely faulty, misconception that “every non-Ashkenazi Jew is by default non-European, and hence ‘Sephardic’”, obscure the need for precise encyclopaedic information. There is definitely some overlap between (some) Sephardi and Mizrahi traditions, but there is equally much an overlap between (some) Sephardi and Ashkenazi traditions. -- Olve Utne (talk) 10:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Do not merge. Even though Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews share many things in common, the minhag is very similar and even physically we may look alike, we are not the same group. And one of the clear differences is the cuisine. The Yemenite cuisine, for instance, or the Persian Jewish cuisine, is way different from the one of those who left the Iberian Peninsula. Yemenite, Persian, Bukharan and Caucasian Jews do not prepare anything similar to Pishkado Kocho, while Sephardic Jews do. Another clear example is the bunyuelos, which are something Sephardic Jews have in common with Spanish and Latin American cuisine, not with the cuisine of Mizrahi Jews. There may be many things in common, but one thing is clear to both groups, and is that their cuisine is different. --JewBask (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• Do not merge. Sephardim and Mizrahim are two distinctly different groups, each with their own experiences, history, cuisines and languages. While, as jews, they may share some cultural similarities, they each posses their own uniqueness. Merging the two cuisine groups is not only irresponsible but trivializes the culinary contributions made by each culture. --Nsaum75 (talk) 02:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
• Do not merge/ Per everyone above, regardless of colloquial Hebrew, Sephardim and Mizrahim are different groups, with different food customs. - Epson291 (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

• Do not merge/ Though many Sephardic Jews did enter parts of the Mizrah, it is important to note that the cuisines did evolve separately and that only in a few countries did the populations merge to the point of cancelling out the other's customs. It is therefore completely inappropriate to merge these two articles. - hanastop (talk) 14:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I am continuing to update this page with cited information that is specific only to cuisine of Mizrahi Jews. Moving it to the page Cuisine of the Sephardic Jews would be misleading and inaccurate and unconscionable. Alternativehushhush (talk) 17:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Have we considered merging the "Cuisine of Mizrahi Jews" and "Cuisine of Sephardi Jews" into the article "Jewish Cuisine"? It seems to me that the topic of Jewish Cuisine is the umbrella covering all the varieties of Jewish cuisine.Chefallen (talk) 16:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

At the very least I think there should be an overview of each type of Jewish cuisine - Sephardi, Mizrahi, Yemenite, Ashkenazi, etc., in the "Jewish Cuisine" article. Then, if we want to get very detailed about them, we can expound further in separate articles that are referenced/linked to the main Jewish cuisine article. WDYT? Chefallen (talk) 16:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inaccurate information

Information about the cusine of Mizrahi Jews needs to be moved to that page. Postings about Yemenite food etc, does not belong on this page as it clearly belongs to an entirely different culture and cuisine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaritaM09 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Deleted for complete inaccuracy

The section: "As these foods are staples of the Sephardi diet, Sephardi rabbis ruled that their consumption is permissible. This has major implications for cooking, as many of the oils used in modern kitchens are derived from kitniyot (soybean, corn, sunflower and rapeseed)." is completely inaccurate.

1. Sephardi rabbis NEVER ruled that it was okay because it was never banned. 2. The reason Ashkenazi rabbis banned it has nothing to do with it being a staple.

Please do not consider this vandalism. I actually happen to be Sephardic, and learned in Sephardic history and Law, and this is likely written by an non-Sephardi person who has absolutely littel to no working knowledge of Sephardic law, practice and history. It is vandalism and slander to continually replace this section on the page.

It has actually been brought to my attention by other people who complain of it's complete inaccuracy. This is actually quite a rediculous passage.

The real reasons that kitniyot were banned in the Ashkenazi community are as follows: 1. Legumes were often mixed with flour in the market place to maintain dryness, and therefore they could easily be considered chametz, which is forbidden on Passover. 2. The legumes could be ground into flour, and bread could be made from that flour, thus causing confusiona and the possible violation of Passover laws. 3. The puff up when cooked, and therefore they have the illusion of chametz. This is acutally a more modern convention used to explain the ban, but it is quite often cited today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alternativehushhush (talk • contribs) 17:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Simple Facts of Difference

Here is a major reason why Sephardic Cuisine and Mizrahi Cuisine are different. Both feature cuisine from muturally exclusive countries. Even though some countries feature overlap, others don't. The ones featuring overlap don't dictate the status of the rest. Based on culture and location, some Sephardi Jews are also sometimes considered Mizrahim, because their culture was so heavily influenced by local Mizrahi populations it became sometimes almost indistinguishable. Their cuisine would be considered more Mizrahi than Sephardic by many.

Countries where Sephardic Jews are exclusively NOT considered Mizrahi Jews Bulgaria Turkey (Almost exclusively Sephardic identity) Bosnia and Herzegovina Holland England Macedonia Romania Italy

NONE of those countries is considered Mizrahi. Avigayilneshama (talk) 13:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)