Talk:Raven's Home/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sources

If someone wants to expand the article, there are a lot of news sources here.

Also, see Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:29, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2017

Pleas add that the release date is july 21st after the premiere of descendants 2

see look here http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/ravens-home-premiere-date-disney-channel/96.234.202.100 (talk) 22:40, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. Article in question uses a tweet from an unverified Twitter. Amaury (talk | contribs) 23:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

In other words, see the Talk page topic immediately above this one. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:09, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Re: Use of unreliable source(s) to back the premiere date

It appears many are reporting that the series will premiere on Disney Channel on July 21, 2017, the same night that Descendants 2 premieres. The problem is the two sources we've seen used to support that so far, [1][2], are not reliable. The first link is sourced to an unverified Twitter account, and the second link uses the source from the first link and nothing else to report it. Please find a reliable source to back the information. Use of the aforementioned links as sources, as well as any other sources not deemed reliable, will lead to the edit being reverted. Thanks. MPFitz1968 (talk) 05:55, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

July 21 premiere date is now confirmed: [3]. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:18, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Cast order

Cast order before today reflected what was in articles, but now the official opening sequence has been released: [4] Cast should now be ordered per how they are displayed there. Further changes to this will be reverted on the spot. Amaury (talk | contribs) 00:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Have you considered writing a hidden note? Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 00:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Currently, it's only been changed twice, but if it becomes a problematic pattern, hidden notes will be useful. Amaury (talk | contribs) 00:54, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Sources in episode table

Can someone tell me why there are sources in the header of the episode table? For as long as I can remember, they were never there on other TV series and the sources were always in the Rtitle part of the table. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 21:38, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

There are a number of reasons, but to keep it short, they cut down on having a lot of reference listings, which are removed after an episode has aired, but still. The more important reason, though, is that they're also used to keep a record of the past, so that way if someone changes something, we can check to see whether there was an error in the original version or if it's vandalism. Although more often than not it will be vandalism. Amaury (talk | contribs) 21:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh. It just looks odd. I've always been used to the other way. Is there any way to remove the white background? Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 21:56, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

The white background is automatically applied when there are contrast issues with the links. Amaury (talk | contribs) 22:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Damn contrast. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 12:49, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

@Callmemirela: (Just saw this discussion...) I think I have a better answer for you – When the only info that is being referenced is just future episodes titles and airdates, and that info is all from the same source, column references are generally used, because those column refs will source all the info in those columns. So when are individual episode sources used? When there isn't an overall "list" source for things like episode titles, or when a source for info about an individual future episode also includes info about that episode's writers and/or directors. For example, The Futon Critic usually has a "general listing" for each TV show, that will include episode titles, airdates, and often production codes; but Futon Critic will also sometimes have press releases about individual (upcoming) episodes that may also include that episode's writers and directors. So, if all you have is the former, it's generally better as a column reference; but if you can get access to the latter, then referencing the individual episode's info may be the better choice... Now, as it happens, a number of editors don't understand this, and will blindly and repetitiously use the same source to reference every (upcoming) episode, when just doing a simple column ref would be the better choice... FWIW. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Persistent addition of info about show, or its premiere, before it officially airs on Disney Channel

I've been noticing this for the past few hours, and this coming quite a few hours before the show makes its premiere on Disney Channel (doesn't make its premiere on Disney Channel east until a little after 10:00 pm US Eastern time). Yes, the first episode is available on the Watch Disney app, ahead of the premiere, but we should wait until it has also aired on Disney Channel. There is no rush to have the info out right away. MPFitz1968 (talk) 19:17, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Cory in the House

So tell me why this shouldn't be on the page, because the only excuse you use is that this is not a spin-off of CITH, and that's true, but nothing about that box says that it is a spin off of that show. I am not the one disruptive editing here. Multiple people have added this and you remove it because you don't like it, that is disruptive editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.112.18 (talk) 07:10, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

@97.127.112.18: The infobox instructions for "preceded_by" (found at Template:Infobox television) are not very understandable in this area, particularly the first part: If Show A was a predecessor of Show B, insert the name of Show A and production years. It doesn't clearly define what is and isn't a "predecessor" in the context we're dealing with here, but we also can't be listing every show that came before Raven's Home. Both that show and Cory in the House spun off from That's So Raven ... that part is undisputed. They spun off in different ways, too, and from your edit summaries, you appear to understand that part as well. But you also cannot keep restoring your edit over another who reverted you, and that's why it needs to be discussed here, per WP:BRD. MPFitz1968 (talk) 08:23, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The instructions are ambiguous on how to use that attribute. Other than being spun off from That's So Raven the two shows have nothing else in common. However, if we consider TSR as the start of a franchise, Raven's Home is the third show in that franchise, the second being CITH, so from that point of view CITH precedes RH from the franchise of related shows point of view. From the point of view that RH and CITH are otherwise unrelated and nothing in RH came from CITH then nothing in CITH led to RH so didn't precede it in any story telling way. Either way of treating this could be supported so this is an consensus decision to make. I'm OK either way, with a slight preference for not listing CITH there, as long as there is consensus of which one to choose. Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:04, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with that final point, and that's how I've been looking at it. Everything in Raven's Home comes from That's So Raven, not Cory in the House. The only relation between Cory in the House and Raven's Home is that they're both spun off from That's So Raven, as you said, but that's not enough reason to include Cory in the House as preceding it. Amaury (talk | contribs) 15:10, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

disagreeing with an edit works two ways. No one else was having a problem with the edit, yet you keep removing it. As stated, there is no official rule to the template, and as such, there is no reason to leave Cory in the House off he list since they are part of the same universe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.112.18 (talk) 19:09, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

No, lots of us have a problem listing Cory in the House – that show has nothing to do with this show, and is just another unrelated spinoff of That's So Raven. Cory in the House should not be listed in the infobox. Period. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:51, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

They are all party of the same universe, that's why it needs to be included, and the vast majority have been indifferent to the change. You don't even provide any reason why it shouldn't be there, and as others have said, there is nor specific rule on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.112.18 (talk) 08:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Nothing has to have policy to support the addition of removal. It's called consensus. The preceded by is solely used for shows that preced the current show. Cory in the House comes from That's So Raven. Raven's Home comes from That's So Raven, not Cory in the House. Now will you please let this go? Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 08:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

No, because there is no consensus. Reservations are not the same as outright opposing, and you guys are giving conflicting information just to get your way of not including it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.112.18 (talk) 04:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

'Kay. Whatever helps you feel better. If you refuse to let this go, I think it will just be better if we all just ignore you and not make any further responses to you. Amaury (talk | contribs) 04:37, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, because that is exactly how you reach a consensus, ignoring what you don't want to hear. How noble of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.112.18 (talk) 06:30, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

"Consensus" effectively has been reached. "Consensus" doesn't imply complete unanimity – every other editor that has posted on this issue disagrees with your view on it. IOW, the consensus is actually against you. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:15, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Reparaphrasing the lead section

Considering the lead section is a summary of the entire body of the article, there is no need to list every single cast member (considering they are mentioned in the cast section). Plus the creators, which refers to the person who simply created the series' characters (and oftentimes become the executive producing showrunner and head writer, but not in this case) had no involvement with pitching or in making Raven's Home. Therefore, only the series developers, who furthered the storylines and characters and also pitched it to the network (and are the showrunners), should be listed in the lead section. The lead section should be reparaphrased to the following:

Raven's Home is an American sitcom developed by Jed Elinoff and Scott Thomas that premiered on Disney Channel on July 21, 2017. The series is a spinoff and sequel to That's So Raven, the second spinoff from that series after Cory in the House, and centers around Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins, whose childhood best friend Chelsea—also a divorced parent—and her young son move into Raven's apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

Please, let me know if everyone agrees to me paraphrasing it like this, and I'll do so. ATC ^{. Talk} 17:51, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Not every crew member is being listed, just the top ones. All other crew members are in the infobox. Developers and creators are of equal importance and should be listed. That other information is more appropriate for the Plot section. Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Two points here – There's nothing that really says one way or the other whether the entire cast needs to be listed or not; I don't think either way is "right" or "wrong", and an acceptable version can probably be worked up that includes everyone except perhaps Sky Katz in the lede. In terms of crew, I think mentioning the "creators" is every bit as important as mentioning the "developers" in nearly all cases. Second, I do like your version of the "plot" summary in the lede, and would advise that we at least try to work that in, even if we don't use your exact wording above... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

In terms of the creators, we can maybe rework the lede to make it clear that they created That's So Raven – I think that would be an acceptable compromise... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

@IJBall: I think part of the confusion is that Raven's Home's credits specifically show that they created Raven's Home—as you saw in that video—but even I found my wording to be odd, and I think it's because there are two people for each role. If it were just one person for each role, like with Nicky, Ricky, Dicky & Dawn, I think it'd sound less odd. On top of what you said, perhaps we should word it in a way that mentions that the original creators from That's So Raven return as the creators for Raven's Home. Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:35, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, something like that. Or we can even use something like ATC's wording – "...characters created by Michael Poryes and Susan Sherman..." --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

How about this then:

Raven's Home is an American situation comedy developed by Jed Elinoff and Scott Thomas that premiered on Disney Channel on July 21, 2017. Based on the characters created by Michael Poryes and Susan Sherman, the series is a spinoff and sequel to That's So Raven, the second spinoff from that series after Cory in the House. It centers around Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins, whose childhood best friend Chelsea—also a divorced parent—and young son move into Raven's apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

ATC ^{. Talk} 18:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Better. I still think at least Raven-Simoné and Anneliese van der Pol need to be mentioned by name in the lede as well. I tend to think it's better if the three kids are too, but it's probably not crucial... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't really know of any featured or good articles on Wikipedia that usually list the actors' names in the lead section. But, in such case, how about this:

Raven's Home is an American situation comedy developed by Jed Elinoff and Scott Thomas that premiered on Disney Channel on July 21, 2017. Based on the characters created by Michael Poryes and Susan Sherman, the series is a spinoff and sequel to That's So Raven, which is the second spinoff from that series after Cory in the House. It stars Raven-Simoné as Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins, whose childhood best friend Chelsea (Anneliese van der Pol)—also a divorced parent—and young son move into her apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

ATC ^{. Talk} 19:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

You're talking to the wrong person on this – personally, I am deeply skeptical of the WP:GA/WP:FA process, precisely because they "distort" the editing process like this, and lead to these weird little prejudices which aren't even in the guidelines. Note also what is actually in WP:TVLEAD: Subsequent paragraph(s) should summarize the major points of the rest of the article: basic production information (e.g. where the show is filmed), principal cast of the show, critical reception, influences, place in popular culture, major awards, and anything else that made the show unique. Now that is written on the assumption of a bigger article with a greater than one paragraph lede, but I see no reason why some of that wouldn't still be included in a single-paragraph lede like this one's... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

But, yeah – this last version is better still. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:11, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that WP:TVLEAD's "principal cast of the show" typically refers to the main characters, as in the example they provide on The Simpsons. Other than the characters's names on the show, there is no need for the lead cast members' names in the lead if it is already in the cast section. ATC ^{. Talk} 19:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Hence "basic information." In the lead, we list the main cast members. In the "Cast and characters"/"Characters" section, we go into further detail with who they portray and descriptions if necessary. Amaury (talk | contribs) 19:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any WP:GA or WP:FA that doesn't list the main character, setting, and basic premise in one sentence. I only know of one WP:FA that actually lists the cast members' names in the lead section. If I hadn't watched the show, just by reading this lead section, I'd have no idea what it's about. And others on here agree that a sentence like that should be provided in the lead. ATC ^{. Talk} 20:14, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

As I said above, I think you need to get away from using GA's/FA's as the "be all and end all" of everything – in my experience, that's a dry well... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not the "cast" – that's the "characters". Forget about The Simpsons as that's an animated show (and, as such, probably not the best example to use...). But cast = the actors, and WP:TVLEAD says "cast" there... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

It states right here (see: WP:Manual_of_Style/Television#Plot_section), "As per WP:TVLEAD above, all articles should contain a few sentences in the lead to summarize the overall storyline, generally done via a non-copyrighted logline or preview summary." ATC ^{. Talk} 20:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Right now, there are three sentences in the lead. Before there were two. The definition of "few" is around three. Amaury (talk | contribs) 20:48, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

How about rephrasing the last sentence of the first paragraph in the lead to this:

Raven-Symoné reprises her role as Raven Baxter, currently a divorced mother residing with her two opposite-sex twins, and Anneliese van der Pol returns as her childhood best friend—also now a divorced parent—who, along with her young son, move into Raven's apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

Or my previous suggestion:

It stars Raven-Simoné as Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins, whose childhood best friend Chelsea (Anneliese van der Pol)—also a divorced parent—and young son move into her apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

In other words, listing all of the ensemble cast's names are not a brief summary of the overall storyline, and listing more than the main star(s) is way too bulky for the lead section. ATC ^{. Talk} 21:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Then it's not totally accurate. It is perfectly acceptable to have the starring cast in the lead. Everything read fine until you came here claiming it didn't. As it is, the lead is only four lines. That in no way represents bulky. Amaury (talk | contribs) 21:57, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

How is WP:MOS not accurate? Based on my experience with other Wikipedia television show articles, there needs to be a brief one-sentence intro to the basic storyline, main character, and setting in the lead. So, now you insist we shouldn't follow Wikipedia guidelines? And I don't think there is anything wrong with rewording the last sentence in the lead section to:

It stars Raven-Simoné as Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins, whose childhood best friend Chelsea (Anneliese van der Pol)—also a divorced parent—and young son move into her apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

ATC ^{. Talk} 22:13, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

First, they're guidelines, not policies. They're not some top-down rules that need to followed to the bone, and we should be going by what makes the most sense, not what one editor claims is irrelevant or whatever. First and foremost, readers come first. Second, I was referring to your proposed lead change. Excluding some of the starring cast would make it inaccurate. The lead should be more than one sentence. A one-line lead with one sentence like Raven's Home is an American comedy television series that premiered on Disney Channel on July 21, 2017 is much too short and should be avoided, and we've actually modified this at articles that have had leads like this. "Brief" doesn't mean one sentence, it means a short paragraph or two. A paragraph is usually about three to five sentences. Then further down in the Plot and other sections is where we really go into detail. Amaury (talk | contribs) 22:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but Raven's Home is an American comedy television series developed by Jed Elinoff and Scott Thomas that premiered on Disney Channel on July 21, 2017 is not too short and is stated fine. And what would make sense is what I originally purposed for the last sentence: It centers around Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins, whose childhood best friend Chelsea—also a divorced parent—and her young son move into Raven's apartment in Chicago, Illinois. It is accurate not to list the whole ensemble cast in the lead. You only need the main character(s) - not the entire 6 cast members' names' just listed like that. ATC ^{. Talk} 22:30, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

User:IJBall also agrees that info should be put. So, you're the only who disagrees, Amaury. User:IJBall even reverted your "block threat" on my talk page. ATC ^{. Talk} 23:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is too short. The six cast members are the main characters. Also, I never disagreed about including a little more. My warning was a warning, not a threat, and making accusations like that can be considered personal attacks. IJBall didn't revert me—otherwise, I would have received a notification—he just removed the warning because you finally took it to the talk page here like you should have to begin with. And learn to use the preview function more so you're not clogging up the page history and causing edit conflicts. Amaury (talk | contribs) 23:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

How about this then: It stars Raven-Simoné as Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two opposite-sex twins (Issac Ryan Brown and Navia Robinson), whose childhood best friend Chelsea (Anneliese van der Pol)—also a divorced parent—and young son (Jason Maybaum) move into her apartment in Chicago, Illinois. The show also features Sky Katz as their neighbor and Raven's daughter's friend.

ATC ^{. Talk} 23:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I find it to be too long and full of punctuation. Also, I have a bit of an issue with "two opposite-sex twins". It sounds odd. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 00:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I could reword the "two opposite-sex twins" to "two preteen children" or "two preteen twins," and User:Amaury wants each cast members' names listed so how about this:

It stars Raven-Simoné as Raven Baxter, a divorced mother of two preteen children (Issac Ryan Brown and Navia Robinson), and Anneliese van der Pol portrays Raven's childhood best friend Chelsea—also a divorced parent—who, along with her young son (Jason Maybaum), move into Raven's apartment in Chicago, Illinois.

And let's move this sentence as the last sentence in the plot section: The show also features Sky Katz as their neighbor and Raven's daughter's friend.

ATC ^{. Talk} 01:08, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd be okay it something like this:

It stars Raven Baxter (Raven-Symoné) as a divorced mother of two preteen children/twins (Issac Ryan Brown and Navia Robinson) living with her childhood best friend and divorced mother, Chelsea Daniels (Anneliese van der Pol), and her son (Jason Maybaum) in Chicago, Illinois.

I find it much shorter. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 01:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Situation comedy or comedy

I don't see what the controversy is over calling it a situation comedy, considering two sources, one of which includes a quote from the executive vice president of original programming for Disney Channel (see here: http://www.eonline.com/news/848754/raven-s-home-finally-has-a-disney-channel-premiere-date) and an official Disney Channel press release (see here: http://www.disneyabcpress.com/disneychannel/pressrelease/ravens-home-the-comedy-ravens-home-a-spin-off-of-thats-so-raven-premieres-friday-july-21-on-disney-channel/) refers to it as a "sitcom." ATC ^{. Talk} 19:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Situation comedy is more informative of exactly what type of comedy it is as there are many forms of comedy shows. Gives more information and is supported by sources. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Other featured articles, such as The Simpsons, uses the term "sitcom" in the lead section. ATC ^{. Talk} 20:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

How other articles do things set no precedence over other articles, especially if those other articles are doing things wrong. See WP:OSE. That's not necessarily the case here, but still. If this change were to happen here, it should be based on the local consensus here, not how another article does things. Amaury (talk | contribs) 20:05, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) FAs are exemplars of very well written articles. I consider them as a supplement to the other general guidelines and they fill in gaps that the general guidance articles sometimes don't cover or leave ambiguous. OSE is reasonable when pointing to non-FA articles as not setting a precedent but in general FAs do create a strong presumption of this is the way to do it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Except for all the times, GA's (especially) are wrong from what I find. I don't track FA's as closely, but if they're as wrong as often as GA's are, I wouldn't be use them as "exemplars" of anything... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, forget GA's/FA's – what matters is what sourcing categories it as. If both terms are used, as is the case here, then you go with what consensus is as the preferable genre term to use. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:19, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I don't know where to reply, so I am starting new. While I do think sitcom sounds more street talk (don't ask), it is supported by sources and Disney Channel's Liv & Maddie, which ended in March 2017, has the genre sitcom. I believe it should be included. Callmemirela 🍁 ^talk 23:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

@Callmemirela: For clarify, I went through all the articles in my sandbox a while ago and changed all their genres per what's listed on the Zap2it overview page for those series, which is why is Liv and Maddie is currently saying sitcom, but in this particular case, even the official press release does call it a sitcom: [5]. Amaury (talk | contribs) 23:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I feel calling it "situation comedy" would be more formal than "sitcom," but I'll leave it up to everyone else to decide. ATC ^{. Talk} 01:36, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Calling it "situation comedy" sounds too formal now. "Sitcom" is a technical term that has entered common usage and has proper WP:TONE for an encyclopedia now. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:45, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2017

The character section was awkwardly worded and lacked key information. Please change the current character section to the text listed below:

• Raven Baxter (Raven-Symoné) is the single mother of twins Nia and Booker, who works as a fashion designer for dogs. It is revealed that prior to the series, Raven has gotten divorced from Devon Carter (Jonathan McDaniel), an ex-boyfriend from high school, and now lives with Chelsea and her son in Chicago. Raven possesses psychic powers, able to glimpse "visions" of the future. She decides not tell her children about her visions as she believes they would not understand. As a bonus, she can use them to know if the twins are planning of getting into any trouble.
• Chelsea Daniels (Anneliese van der Pol) is Raven's somewhat dim-witted, but sweet best friend and the mother of Levi. She married a wealthy man named Garrett, who was later arrested for tax evasion and had an affair with the law enforcement officer that arrested him. He stole all of her money, and she subsequently divorced him and moved in with Raven. While living with Raven, Chelsea often tries to cook for the family, which goes horribly awry.
• Booker Baxter-Carter (Issac Ryan Brown) is the 11-year-old son of Raven and twin brother of Nia. Like his mother, he is also psychic. After he gets his first vision at school, he decides not to tell his mother about his psychic abilities, as he thinks she would not believe him, unaware that Raven herself is also psychic.
• Nia Baxter-Carter (Navia Robinson) is the 11-year-old daughter of Raven and twin sister of Booker. She initially does not believe her brother's psychic abilities, insisting it's one of his made up stories. When her brother has a vision of Nia getting hit by a boxing bag and later becomes true, she finally believes him.
• Levi Grayson (Jason Maybaum) is the 9-year-old son of Chelsea. He is very mature for his age and often acts as the parent in his relationship with his mother.
• Tess (Sky Katz) is the street-wise best friend of Nia, who lives in the same building as the rest of the family.

References

 Not done From your recent edit to the article, Yunghershey, this is something you can do yourself. Note that you were reverted because you rearranged the order of the cast members; per WP:TVCAST, they are to be arranged "according to the original broadcast credits". Anneliese van der Pol (Chelsea) is shown last in the opening credits of the show, and should be last in the listing here. MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:49, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Plot

I think that the plot section should be changed. As far as I know, the family doesn't know that one of Raven's children can see into the future (however I could be wrong). Jordan Huntley (talk) 06:44, 10 March 2018 (UTC)Jordan Huntley (talk) 06:47, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Comedy vs. sitcom

The press release refers to this series as both a comedy and a sitcom. However, it seems it would be too much to list both comedy and sitcom. Comedy, however, is the more specific and preferred term. Sitcom is more general. Amaury (talk | contribs) 14:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

It's the other way around – comedy is "general". My problem with "sitcom" is that, like "TV show", it's sort of a meaningless "vernacular" term. IOW, "sitcom" is used to describe shows that are not "situation comedies". So I generally prefer "comedy" to be used for genre... However, we do have to follow sourcing. If "sitcom" is predominantly used in sourcing, then we should use "sitcom". In this case, by previous agreement, we've tended to go off what the networks/production companies use as genres in their press releases for their shows as the "main" source for genres. In this case, it's hard to ignore that the Disney P.R. source cited in the lede uses "family sitcom" right off the bat in their description for the show. (Yes, later in the same P.R. they also use the term "comedy". But their first genre reference to it is as a "family sitcom".) My guess, is that the use of the word "sitcom" here harkens back to how Disney referred to That's So Raven by genre, because in other press releases Disney has tended to use "comedy" as their preferred genre term... Thus, in the case, because of Disney's P.R., I think we should refer to the show as a "family sitcom" in the lede (and in the infobox). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Comedy is a much more general term and situation comedy is a specific type. If sources call it a sitcom it is reasonable to use that term. Using Both comedy and sitcom is redundant so the more specific term is preferable. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, "family sitcom" is the right genre here. A sitcom is a comedy but a comedy is not a sitcom. "Comedy" is the umbrella genre that covers everything that's intended to be funny. It then has more specific sub-genres like stand up comedy, sketch comedy, mockumentary etc... and you can find them here: Comedic genres. So, even if Disney were to use the word "comedy" more, the more specific genre, "situation comedy/sitcom" would still be the right one. We can then make it even more specific by using "family sitcom." You want the page to be as informative as possible for people who don't know the show and that means being as specific as possible. Otherwise, if someone just sees comedy, they might think it's the same genre as SNL or Walk the Prank. Starforce13 (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

As there is clear agreement from everyone that Raven's Home should be identified as a sitcom, including myself after reading IJBall's reply above the other day and MPFitz1968 ([6]), I shall make the change accordingly. Amaury (talk | contribs) 02:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

And  Done. Amaury (talk | contribs) 02:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

"Spinoff" vs. "sequel"

Since we have at least one source calling this a "sequel" (and there's at least one other WP:RS calling it that as well: [7]), though admittedly most sources do call it simply a "spinoff", I suggest we change the wording in the lede from "...the series is a spinoff of..." to either "...the series is a sequel spinoff of..." or "...the series is a sequel to and spinoff of..." (Also, it is "spinoff of" or "spinoff to"?!...) Any thoughts? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:53, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

A previous in-depth discussion can be found here: User talk:Amaury/2018#Raven's Home – Spinoff or sequel?. Amaury (talk | contribs) 15:33, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

So I'm revising my thinking a little since that – now that there's 2 sources (at least) that use the word sequel, it's OK to use the word in the lede. (I just wouldn't emphasize the "sequel" aspects in the lede beyond just using the word...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:42, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

In most cases, we do go by sources, but I don't know if that should be the case here. Just like when sources end up saying a certain actor/character will be recurring and they only end up being in two episodes. Raven and Anneliese are the only returning cast members and the setting is a different location, if I recall correctly, though the casting part doesn't matter as much as the story, per Geraldo Perez's comments here: Casting doesn't matter that much, it is more about story focus. If the story continued to focus on Cory, I'd say sequel but the focus has substantially changed. It is not a continuation of the original story, it is telling a different one with some elements from the first being used. So let's look at it the same here. Is the story continuing from That's So Raven or is it just using some elements from it? Expanding on that, going off of KatnissEverdeen's comment there, do the stories involving Raven and Chelsea revolve around them or their children? And if they do have stories revolving around them, are they major stories or minor subplot stories? Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:03, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

You're basically saying this is an WP:ONUS situation... Sure, it might be. I think it's appropriate in the lede here, but let's see what the consensus is on the question. So let's see if anyone else comments... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Variety is pretty consistent calling it a spinoff because that is what Disney is calling it per press release. Other sources are using some writer's interpretation of the show the same as editors on Wikipedia are doing, and they call it per that understanding. I'd go with what Disney considers it as authoritative. Disney calls it a "spin-off series", notice how they spell spin-off, not sure it matters as that is a style issue, but we may want to match Disney exactly if we use their words. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:41, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Argh! I hate that spelling! It's antiquated!! (Luckily, most secondary sources spell the word the "modern" way: "spinoff"...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:49, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Lead

Per WP:TVLEAD, Subsequent paragraph(s) should summarize the major points of the rest of the article: ... principal cast of the show ... Bold emphasis mine. And the best way to do this is to have "The series stars A, B, C, and D." Having that in a parenthetical statement conveys the message that the principal cast is not important as text in parentheses acts more like side notes, and the starring cast is of course important. In other words, it's text that could be taken out and the sentence would still make sense, pretty similar to using em-dashes. Unless there are 10+ main cast members, there is no reason not to have this. In those cases, we would only include between one to five of the main cast members who have titular roles on the series, and if we can't figure out who to pick out, then we wouldn't include the principle cast in the lead at all. However, that's not the case here. Amaury (talk | contribs) 18:40, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

We should at least put the character each cast member plays in that sentence. ATC ^{. Talk} 21:53, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

There should also be a brief sentence about the series premiere ratings, as well as the awards it received for the ending of the lead. ATC ^{. Talk} 21:53, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

You need to review WP:TVLEAD – awards only get mentioned in the lede if they're major awards (e.g. the Emmys), and that's for the show, not for its actors. Ratings, in general should not be mentioned in the lede, esp. for a show like this, as it hasn't set any "records" for ratings on Disney Channel or anything of the sort. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:43, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Awards and Nominations

Can someone add to the page that Jason Maybaum won the 2018 YEA award for Best Leading Young Actor – Television Series. The Source is: <www.youngentertainerawards.org/documents/YEA%20NOM%20LIST%202018.pdf> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starinfo1 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I think a bigger discussion is needed. For some reason, most of these articles for recent Disney and Nick shows don't list awards and nominations earned by cast/crew for the show. Other TV and movie articles usually include all the award and nominations related to show/movie even if they're just for specific actor or crew member. From an awards/academy point of view, an award earned by a crew/cast member also counts as an award for the show. I'm not sure where the convention to leave them out from these articles came from... but that's definitely something that needs to change. Starforce¹³ 20:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

The reason is that awards for the actors belong on the respective actor pages, if they exist. Only awards for the series should be listed here. Add: One of the problems with listing all of the awards under the sun is that the list can become bloated and cluttered. It's similar to how we only list producers and executive producers and not co-producers and co-executive producers. Amaury • 20:07, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Young Entertainment Awards - http://youngentertainerawards.org/about.html does not appear to be a notable award anyway so should not be listed at all in any article. As for the general issue of major notable individual awards, if it is for a specific performance it seems reasonable to put it with the performance project article as well as in the actor article as is done with film articles. What we don't want is individual popularity or general awards not directly tied to a project in the project articles. See List of awards and nominations received by The Big Bang Theory for example. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, not this award in particular but the general convention of including awards earned by the cast for the show. It should be listed on both the show and the actor's page (if any). That has always been the convention and it's what shows from all the other networks, and streaming services like Netflix etc do. For examples, look at some of the recently awarded shows in the latest Emmy's like Fosse/Verdon, ODAAT, Better Things. They include the cast/crew because it is an award for the show as well. If an award is WP:NOTABLE enough to have its own article, it should be listed without worrying about getting bloated. These Disney/Nick articles have very shallow content compared to other top shows articles which list all the awards/noms. At worst, the awards section gets a spinoff article like List of awards and nominations received by Modern Family. The idea of leaving out cast awards or "smaller" awards only seems to be applying to just these subset of Disney/Nick shows. They should follow the global convention. Again, this is only if the actor earned the award for their role in the show. Starforce¹³ 21:01, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

So... unless someone has an actual valid reason supported by Wikipedia policies / guidelines to exclude cast awards for just these Nick/Disney shows, I will start adding them. Starforce¹³ 13:30, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of if the award nomination or win is for a major or minor award, for the show page to be accurate and complete the nominations and awards should be included. The awards to the actors are for the character they play on the show as contrasted with a lifetime achievement award which would only be on the actor page. Also missing from this page are Raven's nominations for her role on the show from the 2018 Daytime Emmy and 2019 Kids Choice Awards.Starinfo1 (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

There are notable awards, some are major and some are minor. Notable awards have an article about the award or have significant coverage in some article that gives details about the award. Non-notable awards we should ignore. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:05, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

See related discussions at Talk:Girl Meets World/Archive 2#Awards and nominations section - actor awards being moved to their individual pages, what about writers, directors, etc.?, Talk:Girl Meets World/Archive 2#Revisiting awards/nominations that belong in that section, Talk:K.C. Undercover#Awards and nominations section, and the most recent one here, where I invited Geraldo to participate in this discussion. Amaury • 16:32, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

None of those have any real consensus, and anyways, it shouldn't even be up for discussion in the first place. We shouldn't be changing rules/conventions for a subset of shows, with disregard of the general convention on the rest of show articles on Wikipedia. Cast and crew award nominations for their work in a show always count towards the show as well. That has always been the case and it's how it's always been handled for other TV show articles since the beginning. Starforce¹³ 17:45, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

See WP:OSE. Amaury • 17:57, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

WP:OSE doesn't mean changing rules to circumvent existing conventions. And in fact WP:OSE doesn't say it's a bad argument. It says OSE arguments are are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes. The arguments are invalid if done to keep something that violates Wikipedia policy or incorrectly applied. Starforce¹³ 18:22, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Recurring Characters

Please add Nathan Blaiwes as Gunner "The Guntz" Guntzenheimer and Donovan Whitfield as Curtis to the recurring characters section. They have appeared in as many episodes as Zeena + Sienna and will be in the episode that airs this Friday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.159.148 (talk) 19:02, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

• See also Talk:List of Raven's Home episodes#Curtis and The Guntz please. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:50, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

WDTV Press source used for main characters of Cast section

This source, used for looking up information about the main cast characters, such as the credited names of the characters, is no longer working. While the main page is archived with archive.org, the information associated with each actor (e.g., their character along with their description) isn't. MPFitz1968 (talk) 23:51, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Ok, I see what happened. It's been moved to here. MPFitz1968 (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Quick question

Why aren't Entertainment Force, November 13th and Institute for Individual Education listed in the production companies section, they are actually part of the show, I know I keep adding them there but you guys keep reverting it :/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:1C6E:6200:9C43:1811:8D7:58E6 (talk) 12:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The edits have been reverted for being unsourced. I'll ping Geraldo Perez to explain this, given he has reverted this at least a couple of times now. MPFitz1968 (talk) 20:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Will go ahead and ping Amaury, too, on this. MPFitz1968 (talk) 20:20, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @MPFitz1968: I don't remember where we've had this discussion before—I think one of our talk pages—but if there's no "Productions" at the end, then we need reliable secondary sources to confirm it's a production company and not just somebody's name. Amaury • 20:21, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Also not a source but generally accurate is IMDb list of production companies, ones actually involved in producing the series. What role "Individual Education" has isn't apparent but it is dubious it is production of the series. Still credits control but without some indication of what a company's role actually is, being listed doesn't mean they are necessarily production companies. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

btw guys entertainment force is actually the same company that did best friends whenever... so it should be on there if it can 2001:8003:1C6E:6200:98E1:4E5A:E282:973F (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I would be in favor of reevaluating the current logic. According to the template usage, this parameter is supposed to be used for not just the Production companies but also the companies that fund or organize the production (writing, filmimg, editing) which are the Executive Producers' companies credited in the company title cards at the end... besides the main studio (It's A Laugh Productions, in this case). These are the ones that fund the show, or hire and manage producers, writers, directors etc. So, you will notice that these change whenever the showrunners/EPs and their team or writers/producers change. Some of them may include the word "Productions" in their title card, some don't. So, I don't know if that's a good criteria. For example, in season 2, we had co-showrunners and producers from 2 different companies; so, both of their companies got credited at the end together because they played the same role.... but because of our current logic, only Dava Savel's "Done Deal Productions" got included but not Michael Feldman's "November 13" productions, simply based on their closing card logos.— Starforce¹³ 18:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Starforce13: Some of them may include the word "Productions" in their title card, some don't. So, I don't know if that's a good criteria. Since we've discussed this before (User talk:Geraldo Perez/Archive 14#Recently added production companies to Stuck in the Middle and Andi Mack), for clarity, if there's no "Productions" in the card, further research should be done to see if they're actually a production company. Not having "Productions" in the card doesn't necessarily outright mean it shouldn't be listed, just that secondary sources should be found, since the the primary source (the credits) isn't clear enough. HOWEVER, if according to what you said above, we're supposed to be adding all company cards listed in the credits, not just those involved with producing the series, such as It's a Laughs Productions or Schneider's Bakery, then what I said earlier and what I've been saying all these years is moot. Although, once we figure that out, it should be done by you, me, IJBall, Geraldo Perez, or MPFitz1968—basically those who are familiar with Nickelodeon and Disney Chanel, so not strictly us, but still—not a random IP who's been harassing me and the others and abusing multiple IPs. —Amaury • 18:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the parameter description reads, The names of the production company or companies that funded/organized series production. Note: sub-contractors hired to perform production work, e.g. animation houses, special effects studios, post-production facilities etc. should not be included here.... It's usually the EPs/showrunners who organize productions, filming and manage production crew through their companies. So, their companies would qualify for this criteria. (The sub-contractors credits are usually clear for VFX, CGI/animation houses, post-prod faciliaties. So, there shouldn't be a confusion with that.) And yeah, we'll need to closely monitor them. Non-Disney/Nick series articles already include all the closing company cards. So, we just need to worry about these. — Starforce¹³ 21:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)