Talk:Raml Zayta

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Notability tag[edit]

Besides the sources cited, I can see a couple of more in google books but cannot access them. I do think there is just enough material to make a small article here and would like to remove the notability tag if there are no objections. Tiamut^talk 14:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok; I see this was one of several articles that Chesdovi did in a mass tagging as "not notable" (see this list for the rest.) Tiamut went around and expanded them all (we managed to get a couple of the "non notables" to DYKs!)...But things might have been done a tad to quickly on some articles. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 04:47, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

other source[edit]

see Talk:Zayta#Petersen_book. Khalidi, however, does not mention that this village was populated in 1596, so I´m not sure it is the same village as Petersen refers too. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is the Zayta in Nahiya Qaqun, Liwa Nablus (Hutteroth p137), assuming we have the right latitude and longitude given here. Population in 1596: 91 Muslim families and 7 Christian families. It is also the Zeita on SWP II, p153. Zero^talk 16:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On second thoughts, I'm not sure! amudanan,co.il is not responding and I'm confused. I'll try again tomorrow. Zero^talk 16:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC) It seems the coords for this and Zeita, Tulkarm are screwed up. Zero^talk 16:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don´t know about Zeita, Tulkarm (I have hardly any literature about the West Bank)-but these coords seem correct, according to Khalidi? both p. 548 and p.560. And Khalidi does not mention the 1596-data on this village; but neither did he on Al-Ghabisiyya (which were found in Petersen). I have a hard-copy of the book (the link Tiamut pointed to is gone), it is named:

Andrew Petersen, 2005, "The Towns of Palestine under Muslim Rule AD 600-1600". Very useful! (And both this and his "A Gazetteer of Buildings in Muslim Palestine" are now out of print, and no copies to be sold, neither at amazon nor abebooks. :( I have copies though, & I´m happy to share)

Petersen gives his village data based on Hutteroth, and city data based on Cohen & Lewis, 1978. (he say so on p.130) And Petersen cites exactly what you cite here (He just does not give Hutteroths page-nuber:p137). So, basically it boils down to what was in "Nahiya Qaqun" ...if "Nahiya Qaqun" also included Zeita, Tulkarm...we have some problems...But note that Qaqun, the center of the district, is less that 10 km from this place. Oh, and Petersen has a rough map of the divisions in 1596, based on Hutteroth again: p.179, However, he unfortunately only give the "liwas" and not their subdivisions. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 00:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are problems. The article says "15 km NE of Tulkarm" but that is where the West Bank Zeita is. Raml Zayta according to Khalidi and Morris is north west of Tulkarm (near modern Hadera). Khalidi says Raml Zayta = Khirbat Kazaza, which is on PEF sheet 8, lower left corner (showing as a ruin). It does not appear as an occupied location in a 1939 ordnance map (you have it: Zichron Yaakov sheet), or on the big 1944 map with Dayan's signature on it. On the other hand, the West Bank Zeita is an ancient village, in both Hutteroth and SWP, but Zeita, Tulkarm says "south-east of Tulkarm" which is crazy. I'm going to summarise below. Zero^talk 03:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Zeita, Tulkarm = village still existing in the west bank

Hutteroth: p137, 91 Muslim & 7 Christian households. Grid 155,199 (Tulkarm sheet). (Hutteroth's identifications are mostly based on name and nahiya; there is no map in the original sources.)

SWP: Vol II, p.153. PEF map XI, Km. Lat=32:23.2 Long=35:02.7

1945 Statistics: 1780 Arabs (Hadawi copy)

1931 census: p58, 1165 Muslims

Raml Zayta = former village destroyed in 1948

Hutteroth: apparently absent

SWP: Kh. Kezazeh appears as a ruin on PEF VIII, Jl. SWP II, p60 says "Traces of ruins". Lat=32:26.1 Long=34:56.2

1931 census: apparently absent

1945 Statistics: 140 Muslims (UN copy).

Khalidi, p560, says also called "Khirbat Qazaza". Grid 145,203 (Zichron Yaakov sheet).

Palestine Post of Dec 6&9, 1936, has some legal reports about a land dispute involving Raml Zeita.

I have just corrected some obvious mistakes in the article; take a look Huldra (talk) ...and I agree that Zeita, Tulkarm being "south-east of Tulkarm" is crazy. I see that Ash inserted that...I´ll ask him to clean it up. -Huldra (talk) 04:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the lat & long to match the PEF map location of Kh. Kezazeh. Of course that would be wrong if the village was not exactly on that spot, but on the other hand where did the previous coords come from? Incidentally, two decimal points in lat/long seconds suggests accuracy of 2-3 cm, which is somewhat dubious ;). Zero^talk 04:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Coords changed last set put it on the med coast in Israel. The thing with maths is that when taking the centre of gravity of a town/village maths gives an answer, I just plot the pionts and take where the intersect is. Maths then gives the centre of gravity, irrespective of what opinions are.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but you inserted the coords of a different place, Zeita, Tulkarm. Please read the above explanation. This location was just to the east of modern Hadera. Zero^talk 09:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry confusion over Huldra saying Zeita Tulkarem on my talk page. Raml Zeita, is SE of hadera.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was Raml Zeita populated by semi sedentary marsh Bedouin?..Somewhere I recall it being part of the Hawarith tribal area..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Khalidi doesn't say that, though it would explain why it didn't appear on maps as a village. More sources are needed. Zero^talk 10:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I recall it from court records of a compensation case during the British mandate period. I shall endeavour to re-find said docs and any written sources referring to those docs....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See my note above about Palestine Post. I didn't read that text completely, maybe it is there. Zero^talk 10:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A few places like PalestineRemembered give a 1931 population of 1165. However I have the census report and 1165 is the number given for the different location Zeita. The census does not have any entry for Raml Zeita or similarly named location. Zero^talk 11:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I notice a Zeita Swamp just east of Hadera, very close to the right place. [1] Zero^talk 12:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The location of Raml Zayta[edit]

I spent altogether too much time today tracking down the location of Raml Zayta. Finally I found it marked on two maps. One map is a 1943 British army map 1:50,000, which shows "Raml Zeita" as a region name without indicating any houses. (This is consistent with bedouin, but I didn't find direct reference to that.) The other is the Atlas of Palestine by Abu Sitta, which marks "Raml Zeita (Kh. Qazaza)" with a village-like dot close to the same place. Since the army map marks nothing at the place of Abu Sitta's dot, and both the army map and Abu Sitta's map claim to be based on the same 1:20,000 map, I suspect Abu Sitta's dot is artificial. Another oddity is that the location of Khirbat Qazaza (Khirbet Kezazeh) is shown by the PEF map (1870s) to be about 1km to the northwest of Abu Sitta's dot, at a place shown as a nameless hill on the army map. Here is a map showing all these locations; should it go into the article? Zero^talk 14:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, Abu Sitta and a book that I have lost just now say the land of Raml Zayta was owned by the village of Zayta, the one at Zeita, Tulkarm. Zero^talk 14:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Facinating; yes; I definitely think that the map should go into the article. And the 1596-data should go into the Zeita, Tulkarm article, then. .Huldra (talk) 14:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]