Talk:Purple triangle/Archive 1

The Purple Triangle only identified Jehovah's Witnesses

Any religion or entity that would not support the nazi's was condemned to suffering and death. Jehovah's Witnesses suffered torture and death because they did not renounce their faith. Their neutral stand for their faith caused them to be persecuted and many of them died because they did not support the Nazi confederates in their quest for world domination.

The colored triangle classification system used various colors to identify whether a prisoner was a criminal, jew, homosexual, etc.. many groups recieved triangles. According to the United States Holocaust Museum Witnesses were the only ones to recieve the purple. Duffer 21:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone realised that to get concrete information they should go to the official website http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980708/article_01.htm

Your edits wholly contradict every known encyclopedic reference of the purple triangle. Only Witnesses bore the purple triangle. Witnesses were also the only group that was their voluntarily and could leave at any time by signing a piece of paper renouncing their faith. Have you read the resources at the bottom of the page? Also your source does not cite it's own sources and likewise contradicts every known account including the United States Holocaust Museum:(http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/jehovahs/jehovahsw.php?menu=/export/home/www/doc_root/education/foreducators/include/menu.txt&bgcolor=CD9544 http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005394). Show me a reputable source that specifically names a group, or even a person that bore the purple triangle that was not a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 04:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Another link: http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/background/ideology.html, You may be right, but there is no evidence or even reference to any person that wore a purple triangle that was NOT a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 04:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC) http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980708/article_01.htm

Have you read WP:RS#What is a reliable source?. I did some more in-depth research and the only thing I could find, from what would be considered as a reliable source, is an excerpt on the Auschwitz.org website[[1]] that cites the Nowa encyklopedia powszechna PWN, Warsaw, 1995, vol. l, p. 321:

"After the death of the founder, some adherents withdrew from cooperation with the existing corporations while continuing to call themselves Holy Scripture Researchers. In Poland, these included the Association of Holy Scripture Researchers, The Assembly of Free Holy Scripture Researchers, The Union of Bible Researchers, The Holy See in Jesus Christ, and the Epiphany Lay Mission Movement. The name Jehovah’s Witnesses was adopted in 1931 to define members of the denominations gathered around the Watchtower Association. In Nazi Germany, the authorities retained the name Intemationale Bibelforscher-Vereinigung (IBV - International Association of Holy Scripture Researchers), since the denomination was registered under that name as a corporation representing the Witnesses. This is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are referred to in both the official German records of the era, and colloquially, as “Researchers.”"

According to the above it was only Witnesses and Witness splinter groups that were ever refered to as IBV, and again there is no evidence that any member of any of those splinter groups were ever in a death camp, much less bore the purple triangle. Another, more undeniable statement is found in Hans Hesses book: Persecution and Resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses During the Nazi Regime pg. 18: "They were not counted among the political prisoners and naturally could not be counted among the criminals. They were an independent group and wore the purple triangle. They were persecuted, arrested, and committed to the camps, all because of their religious conviction. In the respect they occupied an exceptional position in the concentration camps. The purple triangle thus stood only for Jehovah's Witnesses and not for all prisoners of the religious opposition." Duffer 03:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Duffer, You should be more judicious with your use of "only". It is an exclusionary term often difficult to prove academically valid.

Regarding “Bible Students” under Nazi Germany, the Watchtower’s own resident archivist agrees the term was applied to religious affiliates aside from Jehovah’s Witnesses and splinter groups from Jehovah’s Witnesses. You should also be aware that the Watchtower Society has nearly cornered the market on presenting a historical perspective of Jehovah’s Witnesses under Nazi Germany, which makes objective analysis that much harder. Furthermore, Watchtower authors such as Johannes Wrobel are quick to label non-Jehovah’s Witness (NOT “anti-Jehovah’s Witness”) eyewitnesses of the events as offering a one-sided presentation, yet fail to point out his (their) own conflict of interest. -- Marvin Shilmer 21:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're taking issue with in what I've posted. I scoured my immediately available resources and the only thing that I did find, that was at least partly on topic, is the above quote that does affirm that Witnesses and Witness splinter groups were all pooled together under the term "Bibelforscher" or IBV by the German government. But I have found no, nor seen any, evidence that suggests any member of the splinter group(s) were ever in a death camp. But besides that I am the only one that has provided what can be considered reliable sources per the WP:RS#What is a reliable source? guideline, and all of them directly contradict the idea that there were people in the camps, who were not Jehovah's Witnesses, that wore the purple triangle. That's not me, that's not bias, that is what these sources unequivocally say. Unless you're trying to tell me that Auschwitz.org and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum are PR reps for the Watchtower. Duffer 03:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to say or sound like it didn't happen, just show me something credible that says there were people that were not Jehovah's Witnesses, in any German camp, that wore a purple triangle. Duffer 03:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Marvin came through with a peer reviewed source, I edited the article accordingly. Objections? Duffer 04:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Duffer, I take it you now understand my remarks. If you check transcripts of the Nuremburg Trial you also find direct testimony where eyewitnesses to Nazi atrocities express Bibelforscher was a term applied to at least one Order of German Catholic chaplains who were exterminated just like other concentration camp victims. The same testimony also expresses that Bibelforscher was applied to any protestant chaplain who dared offer pastoral services to condemned prisoners in the extermination camps. The Nazi’s forbade anyone from offering religious consolation to the condemned. Under the Nazi system these chaplains “were absolutely forbidden even to live,” and certainly were forbidden from offering pastoral consolation. -- Marvin Shilmer 15:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

   Mr. Shilmer, did you find where it states that they also wore a purple triangle?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.185.233.79 (talk) 04:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC) 

http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980708/article_01.htm

Only Jehova's witnesses wore a purple triangle. If anyone wants to learn more about them in their official website go to: http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980708/article_01.htm

Nazism was actually quite anti-Christian and large parts of the Nazi elite were occultists. I recommend checking out the Wiki on [Nazi Mysticism]. They did not persecute Christianity because the majority of the Reich's inhabitants were Christian. Waffleby (talk) 10:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)