Talk:Priestly breastplate

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Jewish High Priest Breastplate (Hoshen) Layout[edit]

Discussion moved to main page and then someone deleted the discussion without comment?

The current discussion on the main page is definitely personal opinion... 

  "if the top half of the breastplate was rotated by 180 degrees, and the bottom half turned upside down, with
   Onchion additionally swapping places with Topazion, the lists become extremely similar; there are only four differences..."

This is incorrect.

The mistake is due to a very common misconception. Four rows does not mean four parallel rows (that would be modern thinking). Four rows simply means in four lines or three gems in a row on each side of the four sides a square, making a map of the Israelite encampment in the wilderness.

- Joe Nitwit

Perhaps a question worth exploring?[edit]

Perhaps a question worth exploring would be identifying which gemstone represents which tribe of Israel (see 2 Moses 28:21). Just a idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.186.244.243 (talk) 01:59, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Camp Layout/Breastplate

I think this is the answer to your question:

The bottom of the breastplate/map is EAST so if the High Priest stood in the entrance to the tabernacle and raised up the breastplate holding it flat with the bottom toward the rising sun, this is a map of the wilderness encampment with Levi in the center. There are 13 tribes of Israel but only twelve stones. Levi is not counted and has no stone. Levi camps in the center around the tabernacle.

- Joe Nitwit

Template categories, sourcing and naming[edit]

Please remember:

Thanks everyone. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Samaritan torah[edit]

What does that Samaritan torah have to say on the mater of what stones they were?210.185.5.93 (talk) 05:19, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

The word Bareqeth (the green stone) would seem to derive from bar (child of) + Heqet or Heget (Egyptian Frog goddess of fertility and childbirth). It would be interesting if this related to Hagar, Egyptian mother of Ishmael and his tribe. 124.189.8.46 (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC) Ian Ison[reply]

Etymology of "Onyx" erroneous.[edit]

According to my dictionaries (the unexpurgated "OED," unexpurgated "Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition" and "The American Heritage Dictionary, College Edition"), "onyx" derives from the Greek term, "onux," meaning "(finger-)nail," "claw" or onyx-stone. The connection between "nail" or "claw" and the stone is that the onyx stone is usually found with a vein of white on pink background like the linula of a fingernail. There's no indication, in these or my other desk dictionaries, that the word "onyx" could be derived from a word meaning "ring."˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.250.124.164 (talk) 02:12, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, above is correct - stems from use of antiquated sources throughout article. Corrected. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:45, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

12 Jewels in the Christian New Testament[edit]

In this section the following sentence occurs: '...if the top half of the breastplate was rotated by 180 degrees, and the bottom half turned upside down, with Onchion additionally swapping places with Topazion, the lists become extremely similar; there are only four differences...' This seems incredibly convoluted to me, as well as unencyclopedic. The whole section reads as though it's very OR-y but it does cite sources (text, so I can't go verify them). I wasn't sure what kind of tag to put there (and there's already a clarification tag at the end of the section) but felt it needed to be pointed out. Richard Jackson (talk) 09:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of the Priestly Breastplate Gemstones is Reversed on page[edit]

June 13 2016

Please note the picture, upper right corner is reversed. Follow descriptions of the gemstones in the narrative and you will see what I mean. Hope the originator can reverse the picture. Thanks

Passerby8822 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Passerby8822 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update edit looking for source for Nophek - נפך stone as Eilat Stone[edit]

As I was reviewing the description of stones of the Hoshen, an option that should be included as a logical stone for the Tribe of Judah, "nophek" נפך, is Eilat Stone, mined at the Timna mines near Eilat, Israel, which is also known as King Solomon's mines. The wikipedia article for Eilat Stones, fits the description of "nophek" נפך very well:

"Eilat Stone derives its name from the city of Eilat where it was once mined, it is a green-blue inhomogeneous mixture of several secondary copper minerals including malachite, azurite, turquoise, pseudomalachite, chrysocolla. The Eilat stone is the National stone of Israel, and is also known as the King Solomon Stone" as Eilat stone.

This article states that nophek (נפך) is a loan word from the Egyptian word, m-f-k-t, usually associated with turquoise. It is possible that the LXX preserves the ancient Egyptian meaning of m-f-k-t. Keep your eyes open as there's a lot of new research on the Timna Mines as linked to King Solomon that would be an excellent addition to this article if nophek/נפך is referenced in any published articles. BiblicalArchaeologist (talk) 14:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peer-Reviewed sources on 12 Jewels in the New Testament as Divine Council Worldview[edit]

Dr. M. Heiser, (Heiser, Michael (2015). The Unseen Realm.) has published on this topic as a summary of peer-reviewed research that the 12 Jewels in the New Testament are best understood within the Second Temple Period "Divine Council Worldview" that identifies them as "stones of fire" of the Garden of Eden as referenced in Ezekiel 28 and in parallel in Rev 21. I think an excellent addition to this article on the Israelite Breastplate under the section 12 Jewels in the New Testament. Here are the quotes, but I only have the Kindle Edition:

"We already know from the other data that Eden is the place of the council. The "stones of fire" is another clue in that direction. This phrase is associated in other Jewish texts (1 Enoch 18:6-11; 1 Enoch 24-25) with the supernatural, mountainous dwelling of God and the divine council."[Kindle Edition links to Footnote 7]

[Footnote 7] (reads here as a partial quote of relevant sections of a lengthy footnote):

"The Septuagint translation of Ezek 28 provides another indication that the "stones of fire" refers to the divine abode. All the stones in Ezek 28:13 except one are used elsewhere to describe the supernatural Jerusalem (Rev 21), which is obviously the divine abode and throne room. This is entirely consistent with the portrayal of divinity in terms of luminescence. The lone exception is the Septuagint's anthrax (for Hebrew tarshish). That word is used elsewhere in Ezekiel to describe the divine throne (Ezek 10:9) as well as in Isaiah to describe the new Jerusalem (Isa 54:11). Readers who check the Greek closely may presume a point of incongruence with one other item in the Septuagint rendering of Ezek 28:13-onychion (for Hebrew bareqath) is not found in Rev 21. The supposed discrepancy is a misperception. The word onychion is "a kind of onyx, Thphr. Lap.31, LXXEx. 28:20: as Adj. onychios (sc. lithos), Suid" (Henry George Liddle et al., A Greek-English Lexicon [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1996], 1234). Instead of onychion we see sardonyx in Rev 21:19. Both terms describe the gem onyx, thus allowing an identification of all the gemstones in Ezek 28 (Septuagint) with the description of the supernatural Jerusalem in Rev 21. See James Harrell, "Gemstones," UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology 1.1 (2012): 5 (table 1, pts. 5-6). Harrell notes that both onyx and sardonyx were referred to by onychion. Several other scholars have argued for a close connection between the gemstone description of Rev 21 and Ezek 28: F. Petrie, "Precious Stones," Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 4 (ed. J. Hastings; New York: Scribner, 1919), 619-21; J.L. Myres, "Stones (Precious)," Encyclopedia Biblica, vol. 4 (ed. T.K. Cheyne and J.S. Black; New York: Macmillan, 1903), 4799-4812; and E.F. Jourdain, "The Twelve Stones in the Apocalypse," Expository Times 22 (1911): 448-50."

BiblicalArchaeologist (talk) 14:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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