Talk:Pre-Norman invasion Irish Celtic kinship groups

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I think this page is sorta getting out of hand and definately needs sources and streamlined - its a mess to read and sift for information through. I think the clans should be split into different tables say by province or something? Mabuska (talk) 12:15, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

How about getting rid of the Anglicised surnames and the countless spelling variations. Just stick with the Irish form. That'll cut down on space, and make things easier to read. The lineages in the progenitor column are getting out of hand too. It's just not something that fits well in a table.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The Anglicised surname section is integral to the article as how are non-Gaelic speaking people going to know how on earth the surname is pronounced or sounds like or link an Anglicised Gaelic name to the proper Gaelic form?

What about seperating each clan into its section with a mini-table with the main septs listed as seperate rows or something? I'll work on a concept and post it in this talk page for discussion.

I still think maybe seperating the article into 4 different articles, each focusing on clans from a specific province would help cut down on the length of it and make it more specific. Mabuska (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point on the names, I just think we are fighting a losing battle with variations of surnames. There are countless variations Anglicised-Irish surnames, and sometimes the same Anglicised forms are used for multiple Gaelic names. Why are MacSWEENEY, MacSWYN, SWAIN, SWINE given for Mac Suibhne, and not the common Sweeney. Hopeless, I think. IPs will be adding Swiney, Swan, Sween, MacSween, MacSwan, McQueeney, MacQueenie. And on, and on. A way to make it fair, and not to favour a particular Anglicised form, is to stick with the Irish. Separate sections sounds like a good plan. You'd better show your sources, and give the IPs something to follow on. I'd like to help, but I don't have any books covering the relationships between Irish families.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 04:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll be most able to help with Ulster clans as i have a book on Ulster surnames which gives good information on them though not always on the relationships between them. I think in regards to the Anglicised forms, maybe the most common Anglicised versions should be used? Like as you say for Mac Suibhne, maybe just list Sweeney as it probably be the most common form. Maybe i could use the book i have as a guideline on what Anglicised forms are most common and should be listed for Ulster anyways. The Progenitor section is also a bit mad with those geneologies.

To stop IPs flooding the page with information, i think we should make it clear that every new entry has a verifiable and credible source before its added. Mabuska (talk) 10:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi folks. I started the page and I believe am the only contributor (I often contribute without signing in). It is a large article and the format is unwieldy. I have already deleted one section (Blazons, War cries, Arms etc.). Perhaps four separate pages (for the various provinces) would be more effective, although separate pages by kindred groups might be better. It is a large article, but then there are hundreds of Irish clans (at least approximately 200 main clans). Nothing we can do about that, if a comprehensive list is desirable. The second issue is with variable spellings for individual surnames. Here I think there is no compromise. Yes, most surnames have variable English spellings and sometimes are transliterated also. There is a tendency towards unique surnames' extinction, i.e. people are encouraged by local bureaucrats to adopt the commonest most similar surname and therefore unique local surnames become rarer. Allied to this is the trend to drop O' and Mc/Mac. Surnames that appear very similar are often quite distinct i.e. MacALINION (Mac Giolla Finnéin), now usually "Leonard", a Donegal surnames versus MacALINDON (Mac Gilla Fhiondain), an Armagh name. Many seemingly English-sounding names, even those held by Protestants (actually, usually those held by Protestants) are often of Gaelic origin. Take Ryder, Rider: it is both Ó Marcachain (MARKHAM), an Ui Fhiachrach Aidhne sept in south Galway and Ó Marcaigh (MARKEY) a Fearnmhaigh sept of Louth. Examples of this are legion: "Grimes" (Ó Gairmledhaigh, Ó Greacháín or Ó Cuindlis); "Whitehead" (Ó Ceandubhain); "English", "Ingoldsby" (Mac an Galloglaigh);"PEYTON", "PATTON" (Ó Petain), Donegal and many others. It's very, very important that these extraneous and rare variants are accounted for and would move that the integrity of the entire article hinges upon their inclusion. No exaggeration. Some outside expert advice would be welcome too, though. Martan32 (talk) 12:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

There are a couple of IP's who keep adding in information over the months which i think is making things worse as its left unsourced by them Mabuska (talk) 00:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Out of curiosity what are the other sources are being used for this article? For some of them i can find no correlation anywhere on the internet between clans and septs alleged to belong to them. Examples including most names associated with Clan Dalagh and Clan Drugain. This article i think might even qualify for deletion its that bad. Mabuska (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not know how to make a correction but there are TWO O'Breslin septs in Donegal. One is the O'Breslin of the Cinel Enda and the other is the O'Breslin of Fanad. The O'Breslin-Fanad are decended from Congal Cennmigher mac Fergus Fanad's son Coining. Coining killed in 732 in battle as noted in the annals. Most Breslins in Donegal today are O'Breslins-Enda and most Breslins outside today are O'Breslins-Fanad. The O'Breslin-Fanad should be entered in the Cenel Aedha. Please make these corections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.97.240 (talk) 06:58, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about this excuse of an article. Comment over at the List of Irish clans in Ulster article, i have a section of O'Breslin-Fanad there, which i dunno if it satisfies the difference between the two, but any extra info helps. :-) Mabuska ^(talk) 10:51, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Ulster clans?

As i have started an article dealing specifially with Ulster clans, should the mess of copy and paste Ulster clans on this article be removed seeing as i have a more sourced and researched version up: List of Irish clans in Ulster?? Mabuska (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

References?

This whole page is absent of references and has the appearance of original research. This means that it can be deleted at any time. Whomever went to the trouble of compiling this list should indicate the source of this information or I feel it will be deleted in time. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

1 Aug 2015 Page reformatted to make it more readable

I reformatted this list of Irish Clans to make the page more readable. The information on this page is very valuable indeed. But we do have a serious problem with lack of references. So I am appealing to anyone who knows what book this information came from to tell us the name of the book. This page is NOT original research, it came from a very specific book. We just need the name of the book it came from. And I appeal to anyone adding new information to this page to please add a book reference to any new information.

All comments about my page reformatting are welcome. Thank you. I might also add that when I reformatted the page to make it more readable, I did not add any new information, and I did not take away any old information. I left everything exactly the way I found it. Its the same information, with all the same links, just with a nicer format.John37309 (talk) 11:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

6 Aug 2015: Book source found - The Great Book of Irish Genealogies

I found a book reference that covers the vast majority of the clan information on this page. Its NOT the book that most of this clan information was originally taken from, but you can find the vast majority of the clans listed in the book. The book is; Leabhar na nGenealach: The Great Book of Irish Genealogies. De Búrca Books, Dublin, 2004. Edited by Nollaig Ó Muraíle.

I have added this book reference at the bottom of the page in the references section. John37309 (talk) 19:33, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Too Broad

This page is titled “Irish Clans”, but all the headings are for extremely wide, and very ancient tribal groups; much to the confusion of readers and living Irish people, who more generally identify clans based on their surnames. Nobody in actual practice regards these massive pre-Christian kin-groups to be the living, modern definition of “clan”.

I suggest this page get renamed, or wholly revised. Ri Osraige (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, not sure if your're still around ? but I agree that maybe the article should be renamed as possibly "List of Celtic Irish tribes" or list of "List of Celtic Irish kinship groups". Maybe it could also be mentioned that the sources are for the pre-Norman era. Then maybe a new "List of Irish clans" article could be started, possibly quoting from the likes of Grenham, John (1993) Clans and families of Ireland: The heritage and heraldry of Irish clans and families which can be bought here: [1], and possibly even from Lang Syne Publisher's range of Irish books: [2]. Also, maybe the Clans of Ireland list of registered clans could be included. Cheers. QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Further to the above, I have restarted the List of Irish clans article. QuintusPetillius (talk) 21:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Further to the above, the exhaustive list in this article seems to have been entirely taken from the website https://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/province.htm by Dennis Walsh who has no doubt done his research from the various historic manuscripts and annuals, but there are a number of problems with this. Firstly, this could be seen as not complying with Wikipedia:No original research. Secondly, a lot of the information in this article has been taken from his own assumptions in particular about Irish surname spellings and their English equivalents which is not reliable. As both of these apply to about 90% of the information in the article, I intend to cut it down to be renamed "Pre-Norman invasion Irish Celtic kinship groups" and only include a few examples from the exhaustive list. QuintusPetillius (talk) 13:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Fringe theories

This article is largely based on one source (a 1989 book by Thomas Cairney) which presents fringe theories as truth. It claims there were "four waves of Celtic invasions" beginning with the Cruthin, who "encountered the Cro-Magnon people and adopted their system of matrilineal descent", followed by the Erainn, Fir Domnann/Laigin, and the Gaels. This is all derived from T. F. O'Rahilly's historical model, which is rejected by modern academia. The bit about the medieval Cruthin meeting paleolithic 'Cro-Magnons' is especially ridiculous. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 11:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Have you got any academic sources to back up your claims ? I would say that the article is two thirds based on Cairney and one third on other sources including reliable academics, so does not violate: Wikipedia:Articles with a single source or Template:One source which says: "This template should only be used for encyclopedic content which has a verified, cited source, but only the one source." Further to this Wikipedia:Fringe theories opens with that "In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." This article does represent the mainstream view of the subject, unless you have any verifiable sources to say otherwise ? QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Because it's a fringe theory that's hardly discussed in academia, it's been hard finding quotes specifically saying how it's discredited. But here's a couple:

The Celtic Reals: History and Civilization (1967) by Myles Dillon and Nora K. Chadwick:

With regard to the Celtic settlement of Ireland in particular, O'Rahilly in his Goidels and Their Predecessors, and again in his great book, Early Irish History and Mythology, put forward an entirely new theory. He distinguished four successive immigrations: the Cruthin some time before 500 BC; the Érainn (Fir Bolg) perhaps in the fifth century; the Laigin (with Domnainn and Gálioin) in the third century; the Goidil who came c. 100 BC. ... O'Rahilly's most novel suggestion is that his first three groups spoke Brythonic dialects ... His demonstration is not convincing, and the notion that this more archaic language was brought latest, by a migration of the Quariates from south-east Gaul, is inherently improbable.

Ulster: An Illustrated History (1989), edited by Ciaran Brady, ‎Mary O'Dowd, ‎Brian Mercer Walker, pp.22-23:

T. F. O'Rahilly, whose historical conclusions have been questioned by archaeologists and historians. In particular, O'Rahilly's thesis on the chronology of the invasion has been subject to serious revision and, consequently, as explained in more detail below, his views on the ethnic makeup of early Ireland are no longer accepted.

Anyone familiar with Irish archaeology and prehistoric studies would know this isn't the mainstream view. Ireland wasn't even written about until the 1st century AD, and had no writing until the 5th century AD. None of it is supported by archaeology either. If you read the articles about the Cruthin, Erainn and Domnainn you'll find info and sources about how the theory is discredited. The bit about the medieval Cruthin meeting paleolithic 'Cro-Magnons' who lived 10,000 years before is obviously nonsense, so if Cairney wrote that he clearly isn't a reliable source for this. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 14:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed reply. I intend to incorporate the information you have given above into the article. I will also be making a visit to the library at some point to read a book by J. P. Mallory which should also help to improve the article. Cheers. QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)