Talk:Persian Jews/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Let's settle the Neutrality Dispute

This talk page has grown quite long and it is hard to sort through and figure out what arguments have been settled and which remain. Currently there is a neutrality dispute tag on the article. Anyone claiming that this article is not neutral please add a short line about the specific section or fact that you are disputing the neutrality of. Please no lengthy arguments at this point just a bulleted list of items that you think are non-neutral. Also Please don't be vague by putting things like the "tone is too pro-Isreali" or "the sources are not balanced"... specific examples please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iampayam (talk • contribs) 07:35, 1 December 2006.

I agree, we need examples on why this article is still POV. If none are provided, I'll be removing the tag eventually. Khoikhoi 21:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Jews in Iranian media

There is written:"The anti‑Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers noted the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[30] Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press.[citation needed] Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.[30]" I think there should be differences between propaganda against Israel and Zionism in Iran media and representation of Jews. Although the first one make bad sense against Jews in some people but can we call it antisemitism? Iranian media try not to mention Jews or Jewish state and use Zionists and Zionist state.--Sa.vakilian 08:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

An article on Iranian Jews

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/aam030507.html

I thought it pretty interesting. 64.231.72.74 12:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.72.74 (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

famous iran jews

1.zokaolmolk foroghi[nayebolsaltaneh] was originally jewish 2.mirza kalantarkhan shirazi in ghajar period was also jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spitman (talk • contribs) 22:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Source for section "Discrimination"

The current passage reads:

"Though alcohol is illegal in Iran, a special legal provision allows Jews to make and use wine for Sabbath celebrations, according to an unconfirmed source."

On pg. 212 of the book Persian Mirrors, by Elaine Sciolino, a passage mentions the legal production and consumption of alcohol by non-Muslims:

"...The Armenians, like other non-Muslims, are exempt from the ban on drinking alcohol and are allowed to make vodka and wine for their own personal consumption."

Although this doesn't specifically mention Jews or any specific law regarding alcohol consumption, it may be considered a source for the statement in the passage. If any other wikipedians approve, and have more expertise in inserting references than I do, feel free to put it in.

Citation in Harvard referencing:

(Sciolino 2005, p. 212)

Sciolino, Elaine. (2005). Persian Mirrors. New York: Free Press

Mluo2010 02:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

False info

This article has a a couple of false details. There are 20 synagogues and numerous rabbis in iran. Could somebody add the following info in for me. The source is this:

http://www.forusa.org/programs/iran/dec05-4.htm Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.58.175 (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jews of Iran film.jpg

Image:Jews of Iran film.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Discrimination Contradiction

On one hand: "Like other religious minorities in Iran Jews suffer from discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. According to the U.S. Department of State, Jews may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads"

but then a few paragraphs later

"However, in a rather unprecedented move, the sole Jewish member in the Iranian parliament, Maurice Motamed, strongly condemned exhibition of cartoons about the Holocaust that recently took place in Tehran, and he has also written a letter to Iran’s president questioning his denial of the Holocaust, calling it "a very big insult to Jews all around the world."

how can both be true?

Qualiall 64.8.68.116 (talk) 19:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

dob

Jews are always welcome in Iran as ever.(talk) 14:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Total Jewish Iranian Population is not 600,000 and above

Furthermore, there are little if no Ashkenazi Jewish Iranians. Virtually all Iranian Jews are Mizrahi or Sephardic. I removed that section According to SIAMAK, a Jewish Iranian organization is Los Angeles, there are at least 40,000 Iranian Jews in Los Angeles and 25,000 Iranian Jews in Long Island, New York. Bk963 (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Bk963

Plagiarism

The section "Current Status in Iran," beginning with the phrase: "Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda" and going until the beginning of the next subsection, is a direct copy from this site: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html. ThunderkatzHo! 01:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.162.141 (talk) 00:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted this edit as a copyvio from the same source. The same edit deleted material, which I have restored. —Ashley Y 03:21, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


Minor Edit Needed, And Other Things

Under the history, in the section about the Jews of Iran under the Islamic Republic (1979 and after), there is the following statement:

"As Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and former chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran has quoted[32]: 'Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians' "

I won't edit this, first because I'm not one of the page keepers, but secondly because I don't know whether there is something I'm missing, but I'm wondering about the wording here. If he "has quoted", then who was quoted? Don't you actually mean "As Haroun Yashyaei ... has stated..."? In other words, did the quote come from Haroun Yashyaei, or from someone else?

Wikipedia's Free Dictionary states that the verb quote means "To repeat or copy the words of (another), usually with acknowledgment of the source". So I'm pretty sure you can't quote yourself.

Also, if I could weigh in on the discussion above about the sources for the current population of Jews in Iran, it occurs to me that The Jewish Virtual Library may have somewhat of a bias against Iran. There is a lot of animosity right now between Israel (and therefore many Jews) and Iran. Wouldn't a source such as this want to minimize Iran's Jewish population to make it look less significant? Just wondering...

--Mrs rockefeller (talk) 14:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Jewish Muslims

There is written:"some voluntarily, some by force, some due to social pressure, and some in hopes of improving prospects for themselves and their families.[citation needed] Such Jews, or Jewish Muslims, have existed in the region for centuries. Many marry only those like themselves, many have assimilated, many are secular, and many are practicing Muslims who keep (sometimes unknowingly) certain Jewish traditions. Few have fully returned to their Jewish roots, and such 'hidden' Jews in the Iranian diaspora have largely assimilated."

It's too general and not appropriate for encyclopedia. Jews convert to Islam some by x and some by y which includes almost all probability. It should be substitute with more specific phrase. --Sa.vakilian 08:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed this part after 10 days. Please help me with writing more specific statement. ; some voluntarily, some by force, some due to social pressure, and some in hopes of improving prospects for themselves and their families.[citation needed] Such Jews, or Jewish Muslims, have existed in the region for centuries. Many marry only those like themselves, many have assimilated, many are secular, and many are practicing Muslims who keep (sometimes unknowingly) certain Jewish traditions. Few have fully returned to their Jewish roots, and such 'hidden' Jews in the Iranian diaspora have largely assimilated.[citation needed]

--Sa.vakilian 04:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

See also [1] and talk:HIAS. Andries (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

19th c. redundant material

This needs editing - in an overview it discusses discrimination against Jews for various reasons, then has lengthy quotes by observers and travelers, some of which say the same thing (i.e., Jews weren't supposed to go out in the rain), as well as detailed accountings of deaths in one place or another. This seems like too much detail - terrible, true, but not every event of killing 12 people has to be listed.--Parkwells (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Terms unclear

When the article mentions large communities of Persian Jews in US and Israel, what period of immigration are they referring to? 20th century? It would be useful to have terms better defined.--Parkwells (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Persian Jews are different with Iranian Jews

Persian Jews are those who speak persian in farsi speaker lands ,Iranian Jews means Jews who lives in Iran which Includes Kurdish Jews and formerly Bukhuris and Juhuris Jews. User:Ari777ilUser talk:Ari777il 03:22, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Fix awkward sentence please

"Maurice Motamed in recent years, the Iranian government allows the Jewish Iranians to visit their family members in Israel and that the government has also allowed those Iranians living in Israel to return to Iran for a visit. [18]"

Just because "Maurice Motomed in recent years," is a sentence fragment, it does not mean it can glom onto the nearest thing and make sense. Please fix, I don't know what he did. 64.142.38.174 (talk) 05:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

U.S. State Department

Disinformation from U.S. Government on Iran is not to be taken seriously. It goes without saying that the U.S. Government is incapable of publishing a balanced study of conditions in Iran. This is an encyclopedia, not a mouthpiece for Washington. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.38.178 (talk) 21:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it is a somewhat dubious source for this article because of the hostile attitude of the US regarding Iran. It may be fine for most other article. Andries (talk) 17:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
And yet there are numerous sources from Iranian websites, which you have expressed no trouble citing - as if the Iranian media can be trusted to accurately report the condition of Jews in their borders.24.231.109.233 (talk) 09:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Exactly 24.231.109.233, there are a numerous references from Iranian(state controlled) media in this article. Each one is being used to back up anti-American and anti-Israel bias.WackoJackO 08:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
And, the fact that they can not run for office (outside the 1 reserved majles seat), and other such limits are just "imperialists making tension" - never addressed. Listen, Iranian Jews don't have it as bad as in other Muslim countries, to be sure, but my goodness, this was the rosiest, most one-sided account I've read outside of official IRI propaganda. The spin alone was itself dubious. Great, mention positive aspects; but don't intentionally omit or evade others. This section should be flagged for POV status in at least tone if not merely content. One needn't rely only on the US State Department, which was probably a bad choice to cite or not to augment with other sources, at least. 71.228.159.184 (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

'Iranians in Israel'

  • Merge - unnecessary fork with redundant info that is fine in this article. --Shuki (talk) 22:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction-Rabbis

In one place it says there have been no rabbis in Iran since 1994, in another it mentions a rabbi being killed in 1999, and in another cites a rabbi speaking in 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.135.87 (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

It's actually not a contradiction at all.

In 1994 the Iranian government made an official declaration that there were no rabbis were living in Iran. Then in 1999 one of the many rabbis who actually DID live in Iran at the time was murdered.

I can't say for sure that the murder was motivated by the fact that the rabbi was a Jewish rabbi. (That's just the reason that the killer gave to police.) The Iranian government has made a statement saying that it's impossible that the murderer was motivated by the fact that the victim was a Jewish rabbi for the simple reason that the victim could not possibly have been a Jewish rabbi. Because there aren't any Jewish rabbis in Iran. Because the government said there weren't any in an offical declaration back in 1994.

Yeah, I know.

Was your objection based on a complete disconnect between statements from the government of Iran and reality as anyone understands it? Mardiste (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Jewish education in Iran

I've slapped an NPOV tag on that section, as all the content appears to come from one page on the US State Department website. A bastion of neutrality, of all places :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.85.106 (talk) 18:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Saed Emami

I removed Saed Emami from the list of Persian Jews because as another editor pointed out several months ago, there is no evidence that he was actually Jewish and sources indicating that he was Jewish seem to all come from hardline conservative Iranian publications that lack credibility. His alleged Jewish background can properly be discussed on his own page rather than on the list provided on the Persian Jews page. Boder111 (talk) 05:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Judaism in Persia going back to 1948 b.c.e????

Is there a citation that supports this claim? I noticed it in the opening narrative, but when you read on down in the history section it doesn't start or refer to that period at all. --173.60.151.243 (talk) 21:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

It's only natural that the history section doesn't start there, given that Judaism didn't even exist yet back then... TFighterPilot (talk) 07:22, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Content duplication with History of the Jews in Iran

There appears to be substantial content duplication between this article and History of the Jews in Iran.

This should probably be addressed by either (i) merging the two articles into one; or (ii) reducing the history section here to a very short summary, with a {{main}} tag directing readers to the full history article.

But having two parallel articles with the essentially the same material (ie a content fork) is not good for maintainability; and gives an impression of utter disorganisation to our readers. Jheald (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

How many synagagogues?

The article asserts, in different places:

  1. Today Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues
  2. Tehran has over 20 synagogues
  3. At present there are 25 synagogues in Iran.

At least one of these is not correct. --jpgordon::==( o ) 17:47, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Last names

This article mentions Kalimi as a term used in Iran for Jews. It should also say that Kalimi was attached to the ends of the last names of many Persian Jews. Many families have dropped the kalimi from their names, but others have kept it. I know this was at least done in Kashan and Isfahan (where my mother and father are from). I know this from personal and family experience, but I could not find anything on wikipedia and I had trouble finding anything anywhere else. What I did find was an article on the Encyclopaedia Iranica (http://iranica.com/articles/kalimi-the-name-given-to-the-jews-of-iran) which says that "After the creation of the General Registry Office (Edāra-ye ṯabt-e aḥwāl) in 1924, Jews were apparently required to register their religious affiliation in their ID cards as kalimi meaning Jewish." The article later explains that "the registration of the name kalimi in the Jewish ID cards was not required by any law and that such registration depended upon the personal and hence arbitrary decision of the officer concerned." This is pretty significant to Persian Jews and deserves some mention. Hbomberman (talk) 20:47, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Disputed

Sacha Baron Cohen

I added a [citation needed] tag to Sacha Baron Cohen being Iranian descent. It was removed by user:Rayis, falsely claiming it is covered in the article. Based on most sources, Cohen mother is born in israel of german heritage [2]. The only websites mentioning Iranian descent are the one citing Wikipedia. See: Talk:Sacha Baron Cohen I'll tag it as dubious and Rayis, stop removing it.--Gerash77 04:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm my "claim" was because last time I checked his article, it said he was a Persian Jew and had various references to support it. But it looks like it was removed since then. I will look in to it later --Rayis 13:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Well if you can find the reliable sources, bring them in. As for my research, I am only seeing unreliable sites saying he is of Persian descent, sites I would not trust as fulfilling WP:RS. --Valley2city₪‽ 06:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

He appears to be of Indian-Zoroastrian descent: http://features.kodoom.com/en/entertainment/iranian-heritage-of-sacha-cohen-borat-s-actor-and-freddie-mercury-true/v/2416/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.75.235.72 (talk) 05:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The list

I've removed a few red-linked names from the list; it's hard to see how they're notable enough to warrant inclusion here but no mention elsewhere in Wikipedia. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

POV in section Islamic Republic (1979-present)

Section completely fails to mention any issues that Jews in Iran face in the present. By reading the article the reader has the impression that there is no anti-semitism in Iran and the government treats Jews as fairly as Muslims and blames the mass immigrations to the US and Israel on "Zionists". There is nothing about the many instances where Jews have been imprisoned on charges of "Zionist spying" (notably in 1999 when 13 Jews were jailed and spent years awaiting a kangaroo trial) as well as government sponsored antisemitism such as Holocaust denial and publications of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Data from the Jews section of the Freedom of Religion in Iran article should be assimilated into here. Other references can be taken from the Jewish Virtual Library and books on Jews in the present day Middle East. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yserbius (talk • contribs) 17:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

State-run television is a propaganda machine and doesn't really depict reality. About half of the Iranian population consists of various minorities, many of these Muslims. Unreasonable sentences and reports of torture is not uncommon, they are by no means limited to Jews. [14] [15] [16] Despite state-run media frequently having a go at Jews, Jews within Iran is not particularly more exposed to abuse than other minorities (inc. of Muslim faith). — Preceding unsigned comment added by DonChris (talk • contribs) 00:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Move

This page should be moved to Iranian jews since it includes all iranian jews. --sicaspi (talk) 01:56, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

2011 census

According to NRG (Maariv's online presence) the 2011 census in Iran shows there are 8,756 Jews there, down from 9,252 in 2005. Here's the source [17] in Hebrew. If anyone feels like updating this and other relevant articles, go ahead. I don't have the time. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction

On the one hand, "Jews in Iran are not allowed to communicate with Jewish groups outside of Iran unless the group is opposed to the existence of Israel" (no citation).

On the other hand, "the Iranian government has allowed the Jewish Iranians to visit their family members in Israel" and "Limited cultural contacts are also allowed".

Could this be clarified, please? Perhaps it's as simple as adding "with certain exceptions" to the first assertion. —Ashley Y 10:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction - there is a difference between a "contact with Jewish GROUPS" and a "contact with FAMILY MEMBERS".

Bruno --82.32.35.3 21:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a contradiction and Iranian Jews are not allowed to visit Israel. To do so they must first travel to countries that have relations with Israel, like Turkey or Cyprus and they get their entry stamp on a paper separated from their passports... To say that the government authorized those visits is going far beyond what the original source stated. Albertlberman (talk) 13:04, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

the population of persian jewish in iran

i wanted to say that the population of persian jewish in iran is about 25000 people not 8000 thank you so much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.242.47.238 (talk) 21:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Current Jewish Population of Iran

I did some research on current jewish population figures in Iran, and it really seems most respectable media outlets talk about 25,000. I'm talking about recent articles in the Israeli newspapers Ha'aretz and Yediʿoth Ahronoth, as well as the BBC World Service.

BoogaLouie edited that portion of the article, inserting the following line, which I reverted:

An estimated 10,000[2]-15,000[3] Jews remain in Iran. They live mostly in Tehran, Isfahan (3,000), and Shiraz, according to the world Jewish Library.

This edit is very sloppy. In the first place, it introduces to the article two separate population estimates, in two subsequent paragraphs. Secondly, the 15.000 figure doesn't appear in the citation given ([3]) - it says 25,000 there. And thirdly, it remains unclear what the "world Jewish library" is. Google results are inconclusive, and my university library catalogue doesn't list any such work. I suspect that it's supposed to mean "Jewish Virtual Library" (which, however, is only some website, and itself has the 25,000 figure here: [18]).

I really think the recent Israeli and British news articles that I cited carry more authority than the "Jewish Virtual Library" (which by itself is inconsistent, citing 10,800 on one page and 25.000 on another, and is after all neither a scholarly nor a proper journalistic source). Lodp (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

An admittedly biased source, but with more or less first hand information, is the Chabad group which just smuggled (or at least claims to have) matzoh from [the] Ukraine to Iran for the Passover holiday. The news article states that "Members of the Chabad organization smuggled a huge quantity of matzot into Iran last week in order to enable local Jews in the Islamic Republic to celebrate the Passover according to tradition."

"Some 20,000 Jews currently live in Iran. The authorities allow them freedom to practice their religion, but forbid the import of Israel-made products to the country, an act that could cost a person three years imprisonment or the revoking of his passport for five years." [19]

While they probably didn't get an exact census of the people they were delivering to, I'd guess that they at least got the number reasonably correct. So 20,000 seems to be the way to go.

wiki-ny-2007 (talk) 14:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction: The intro to the article says there are something like 8,000 Jews in Iran, when the rest of the article mentions the number 25,000 several times. 69.118.3.165 (talk) 01:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Second largest in ME?

Currently, the article states two things that I think are no longer true: that Iran has the second-largest Jewish population in the Middle East after Israel; and that it has the largest Jewish population of any Muslim-majority country. That would have been true had there still been 25,000 Jews in Iran, but according to the census, as shown in the infobox, there are 8,756. That means Turkey, with 17,000 Jews, now holds those two distinctions.--RM (Be my friend) 00:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Turkey is not in the Middle East.132.147.64.75 (talk) 02:58, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

1st line of the collage - embarrassing

On pages like Jews it was agreed not o use biblical figures like David or Moses for two reason:

  • It is not even known if they existed. That is basically the same reason why the Greeks don't have Odyssey or Hercules on their collage.
  • Even if they did, we don't have original paintings of them but rather only images based on the imaginations of the artist, and that is against the Wikipedia policy regarding collages.

Daniel, Habakkuk and Esther are against Wikipedia policy and ought to be replaced/removed. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I took the original images from the 2nd and 3rd rows of the last collage, and here they are in the standard format used on the other similar pages:
Solayman Haïm
Roya Hakakian
Morteza Neydavoud
Yousef Hamadani Cohen
Rita
Shaul Mofaz

Another good candidate for the collage would be Rashid-al-Din Hamadani. However, I don't know if this monument is a more or less realistic representation of him. --Off-shell (talk) 14:26, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

I think Rashid-al-Din Hamadani is a brilliant idea for the collage. He was a real figure and the statue was built by authentic descriptions. I loved your collage suggestion so who should we add him instead...? I think we should add him instead of Shaul Mofaz. We already have an Israeli in the collage as Rita, and Mofaz is associated today as mostly the guy who buried the Kadima party and a career politician. What do you think? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 20:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Alternatively, one may also include one more row and put Nouriel Roubini, Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, and Abie Nathan. Roubini is son of Iranian Jews. He was born in Istanbul. When he was 2 years old, the family moved to Teheran. Later they moved to Tel Aviv and then to Milan. Nathan was born in Abadan, Persia. And if there are further candidates, one may then remove Mofaz. --Off-shell (talk) 21:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


Mr. Sort It Out: Odyssey?? I think you mean Odysseus. You say "On pages like Jews it was agreed..." Can you link to that agreement? I can't find it. You say "...Esther are against Wikipedia policy." Can you quote the policy you think it's against? I see this is currenty being edit warred over... Can you respond to the edit summary, "see wp:preserve. Others info box have also ancient people, including Assyrians (Ahiqar, Ashurbanipal, Nabonidus, Abgar V, etc) and Palestinian people(Sophronius)" You say, "Collages should NOT have... figures who we don't have original pictures of." but you support inclusion of Rashid-al-Din_Hamadani.jpg? Are you serious? Those ideas seem blatantly contradictory. --Elvey(t•c) 09:19, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Go on the Jews talk page, and take a look at what people who suggested Judas Maccabeus, King David or Moses were said. All were said the same thing:
    • We don't know if they existed.
    • No original images.
Odyssey is the name of the poem about Odysseus, in case you haven't heard of it.
How can you even compare...?? Ashurbanipal, Nabonidus... were REAL historical documented figures. Did we say Rashid-al-Din Hamadani shouldn't be in the collage?? No. Id you don't see the difference between the authenticity of people like Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, Ashurbanipal and Nabonidus one on hand, and people like Esther, Moses or David on the other hand... maybe you should be editing religious leaflets and not Wikipedia?
Queen Esther is a mythological figure, just like Moses or Abraham. Her only references are biblical references, not documented anywhere else. Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, Ashurbanipal and Nabonidus, however, are people that DEFINITELY existed and we have various historical records to proove that. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 15:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Again, You say "On pages like Jews it was agreed..." Can you link to that agreement? I can't find it. And yes, I've been through the archives looking for agreement on, e.g. Moses' existence.
Again, You say "...Esther are against Wikipedia policy." Can you quote the policy you think it's against? I don't see any quote from or clear reference to policy in your reply. Instead, you argue that there is a difference; my point is, even assuming there is, so what - what policy says that the difference is one that makes the one group in and the other out? Apparently, you can't quote the policy that you claimed existed.
I see nothing in your reply that makes your comment re. Hamadini seem any less contradictory. ( 1.You say you believe "Collages should NOT have... figures who we don't have original pictures of." 2.We don't have original pictures of Hamadini. It follows from 1 and 2 that 3.Rashid-al-Din Hamadani shouldn't be in the collage.)


Instead I see a comment regarding what I should be editing that you should consider striking.
And speaking of the Odyssey, look who appears on Greeks! Homer! The traditionally-credited creator of the Iliad and the Odyssey, about whom we say, "Whether and when he lived is unknown."...--Elvey(t•c) 22:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I already said where it is, it's on the Jews talk page. It's not archived. Feel free to go in there and take a look. Why do you think Moses is not in the Jews collage?
I will tell you which policy it is, the policy that was agreed an followed on every other page about Jews. The consensus! Baal Shem Tov was not included in Ashkenazi Jews, Ukrainian Jews or Russian Jews, David and Moses were not included in Jews. If you were "out of it" while those collages were made it's up to you to go to the talk pages and look. It's there.
We have a statue of Hamadini in Iran and loads of descriptions for him. And most inportant, the fact that he existed is a fact.
O my you really do get 2+2=5. "And speaking of the Odyssey, look who appears on Greeks! Homer!" - You must be joking. Odysseus is a fictional character, a mythological character, Homer is a real life hero. You might as well say: "And speaking of Russians, maybe Yevgeniy Onegin does not appear on the collage, but look who does! Pushkin!" Just because not many details survived about Homers life, no one these days actually doubts the fact that he existed as his writings and contribution to literature survived. If we would know for a fact King David existed, we would include his sculpture even if it would not be original because the figure is so notable. Seriously, you are trying to get mythological characters represented in a serious collage! What next, Splinter from Ninja Turtles represented in Japanese People? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 08:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I can't find it. I looked. Again. It's not there, in any of the sections:
1 Lead clutter
2 Canaan
3 Edit
4 Disambiguation
5 Nation
6 The issue of whether there is such a thing as the "Jewish race"
7 New Infobox proposal
you seem to have been deliberately deceptive with respect to agreements and wikipedia policy. The policy you claimed exists doesn't exist. I don't have an opinion on that question you ask me. You make stuff up to support your preferences, again and again. When I say <<about whom we say, "Whether and when he lived is unknown.">> I'm quoting from our article on Homer. No joke. --Elvey(t•c) 01:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

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Number of Jews in Iran

According to Encyclopedia Iranica there are 25,000 Jews in Iran ([20]). The article was originally written in 2009 and updated in 2012. I think it is a more reliable and better source. -- Kouhi (talk) 20:08, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Iranian Jews Should Be the Main Page, Not a Simple Redirect

The parent page/main page in this article should be Iranian Jews, not "Persian Jews" as it currently exists. To make Iranian Jews simply a redirect to "Persian Jews" is completely in error for a number of reasons, as has been pointed out by other users here already above. I motion migrating the article to Iranian Jews as the main article and possibly having "Persian Jews" as a redirect instead--though I am not entirely convinced of this latter move, as it is a disputed issue at present in another article (see for instance, Persian People Talk Page). —570ad (talk) 03:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

See the instructions for {{Requested move}}. If this template is filled in correctly it will open a discussion on the talk page, that will be closed after seven days. That will allow a consensus to be formed as to the best name of the article. Such a move could well be controversial. EdJohnston (talk) 05:27, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 14 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 03:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Persian Jews → Iranian Jews – This page should be moved to "Iranian Jews" to avoid dual ethnic designations to the Jews of Iran, who are a unique ethnic minority in Iran, that is to say, their ethnicity as a community is Jewish, not Persian. This is similar to the dozens of other ethnicities living in Iran, such as the Kurds or Azeri Turks, for instance, both of which have their pages as, "X in Iran". Thus, the current page designation is misleading and incorrect. It would be much more accurate to move the page to "Iranian Jews," given that the Iranian Jewish community is an ethnoreligious minority living in Iran (and not an entire community of Persian converts to Judaism). 570ad (talk) 22:49, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose There are many Persian Jews who left the country in the time it was still called "Persia", and their distinct communities exist worldwide. This is the article which describes them, their history, customs, demographics, etc. They call themselves "Persian Jews" (יהודים פרסיים). Iranian Jews, as in "Jews who live in Iran", are only part of that ethnic group, and a small part at that, since by far most of them left the country long ago. How the "Iranian Jews" call themselves nowadays, I do not know, but I expect at least some of them also call themselves "Persian Jews" as an ethic denominator. Debresser (talk) 11:02, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose as above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Ethnically, we speak of Persians rather than Iranians. The article on Wikipedia about the main group of people in modern Iran is Persians, while Iranians is a disambiguation page, Iranian people redirects to Iranian peoples, and that article is about all the various ethnicities in Iran. "Persian Jews" is consistent with the prevailing terminology. Largoplazo (talk) 15:47, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

"Today the term Iranian Jews is mostly used to refer to Jews from the country of Iran. In various scholarly and historical texts, the term is used to refer to Jews who speak various Iranian languages. Iranian immigrants in Israel (nearly all of whom are Jewish) are referred to as Parsim (Hebrew: פרסים‎‎ meaning "Persians"). In Iran, Jews and Jewish people in general are referred to by four common terms: Kalīmī (Persian: کلیمی‎‎), which is considered the most proper term; Yahūdī (یهودی), which is less formal but correct; Israel (اسرائل) the term by which the Jews refer to themselves; and Johūd (جهود), a term having negative connotations and considered by many Jews as offensive."

So this already creates a conflict with the current page listing. As stated, even these very same people in Iran refer to themselves as "Kalimi" or are referred to by other specific terms (see the list quoted above for the 4 terms). Further, as the article states, "Iranian Jews" is what's mostly used, however, we have that page redirecting to "Persian Jews." Thus, the move should be made.
Wikipedia is not a valid source for Wikipedia! In any case, you're misinterpreting what the article actually says. It actually says that "Iranian Jews" refers to Jews who live in Iran, not that people outside Iran of Persian Jewish descent are referred to as Iranian Jews. This article is about Persian Jews all over the world, not just those who live in Iran. Ergo the current title is correct. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:56, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
I didn't cite a different Wikipedia article, I just presented a statement from the same article a few paragraphs down highlighting the problem. —570ad (talk) 11:55, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
You actually used text in a Wikipedia article to justify a title move ("Thus, the move should be made."), thus using Wikipedia as a source! In fact, it doesn't highlight any problem since it doesn't conflict with the arguments presented above or with the current title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title should be Iranian Jews

If Jews are an ethnicity like Jews generally claim, then they can't be "Persian" Jews because Persian is an ethnicity, not a nationality. Besides of this those Jews from Iran are not just from Persian areas and not just Persian speaking, there are also Azari speakers, Kurds, Lors, etc. The title should be Iranian Jews. Iran is not a new term, it is the native name of this country for more than 2500 years. "Persia" was just the exonym (given by Greeks) of Iran, referring to the Pars region. Since 1935 also internationally the name of this country is "Iran", it didn't change in 1979. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.24.217 (talk) 22:59, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

See directly above. This has already been discussed and rejected. Also, in my experience, "Persian Jews" is the usual term. See WP:COMMONNAME. Largoplazo (talk) 23:09, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Article's name has to be Iranian Jews

If Jews are an ethnicity, they can't be Persian Jews. Persian is an ethnicity. The points in the older discussion are plain wrong.

First Argument: "Oppose There are many Persian Jews who left the country in the time it was still called "Persia", and their distinct communities exist worldwide. This is the article which describes them, their history, customs, demographics, etc. They call themselves "Persian Jews" (יהודים פרסיים). Iranian Jews, as in "Jews who live in Iran", are only part of that ethnic group, and a small part at that, since by far most of them left the country long ago. How the "Iranian Jews" call themselves nowadays, I do not know, but I expect at least some of them also call themselves "Persian Jews" as an ethic denominator. Debresser (talk) 11:02, 15 January 2017 (UTC)"

That's simply wrong. First, the name of Iran didn't change on a national level. Iranians always called the country Iran. "Persia" was an exnonym. Until when was this exonym official? Until 1935, when Reza Shah asked the international community to call Iran by its native name. Did most Iranian Jews come before 1935? Certainly not.

Second Argument: "Oppose Ethnically, we speak of Persians rather than Iranians. The article on Wikipedia about the main group of people in modern Iran is Persians, while Iranians is a disambiguation page, Iranian people redirects to Iranian peoples, and that article is about all the various ethnicities in Iran. "Persian Jews" is consistent with the prevailing terminology."

Then we have to change everything in the article, because it is about the Jews coming from Iran. But it certainly does also include Jews from Iran with a Lor, Azari, etc. background. Furthermore if that is the case and it's truly about Persian Jews we have to include all Persian Jews, that means also the Persian Jews of Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Bukhara Persian Jews, etc.

The article HAS to change to Iranian Jews, everything else is ideological. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.24.217 (talk) 23:27, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

The article doesn't have to do anything. What we do do, is by consensus. You've presented some arguments. You may or may not persuade anybody. Largoplazo (talk) 23:34, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
If wikipedia cares about accuracy it has to change. But if it stays with "Persian Jews" it has to include all other non-Iranian Persian Jews but exclude all non-Persian Iranian Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.24.217 (talk) 23:38, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Again, "have to" doesn't apply. Again, we go by Wikipedia's guidelines (of which WP:COMMONNAME is one) and consensus.
Besides, why do you think the term doesn't cover Persian Jews from outside present-day Iran? It says right at the beginning of the article, "Jews historically associated with the Persian Empire".
Finally, naming people's associations, past and present, with named geographical units and ethnicities is far from an exactly science, precisely because countries, states, cities, etc., change their boundaries and their names over time, and because cultures migrate, divide, merge, and so on. "Persian Jews" isn't an isolated case by any means. Accuracy is not something you're likely to achieve. Largoplazo (talk) 23:46, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

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Citation for the Numbers of Jews in Iran

The 8756 number has been widely reported as being based on Iranian census of 2011. An old "Times of Israel" article is the citation used for it. But I'm not convinced it is real as there are no direct links to that census finding. In any case that number is now outdated and should not be used authoritatively in an encyclopedia. More recent claims in reliable sources exist. 93.117.252.83 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I believe the 30,000 number is imprecise and inaccurate. Actually there are official public records on both 2011 and 2016 census [[21]] which we can use directly. According to that document (page 22 of the PDF) there are 9826 Jews in Iran as of the latest census in 2016. The other numbers need to change to reflect this. Iranians (talk) 10:20, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Why is this not in the article? 9826 is the most recent number 72.175.213.67 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:24, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Jews in Iran before 1000 BCE and a multiconfessional society

Copied from my talk page. @Iranians:, if you object to my copying it here you can remove it. Doug Weller talk 15:18, 20 August 2018 (UTC) Regarding this revert [22]: You quote Zoroastrianism on when the religion became "state religion", but the religion was founded before it became state religion. Specifically citation #36 in the Zoroastrianism articles says that (direct quote) "Zoroaster, lived in Persia, probably during 10th century BC". Even though there are other opinions, the Atlas of World History privileges this one by using "probably". That is good enough for historical sources, should be good enough for this article. In conclusion, you wanted this information to be backed by the Zoroastrian article, and now you got it. I'll await your answer before reverting, as you suggest. Iranians (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

The text I reverted said "Judaism is the second-oldest religion still practiced in Iran (after Zoroastrianism). The history of immigrant Jews in Iran goes back more than 3,000 years, during which time they were part of a multiconfessional society which included adherents of several other religions." There are three claims there, all needing reliable sources. How can there have been Jews in Iran before 1000BCE? That's not possible. Where's the source for a multiconfessional society? Where's the source for Judaism being the 2nd oldest religion? You're probably right about Zoroastrianism but it still needs a source. Doug Weller talk 15:18, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Name

The name Persian Jews is inherently wrong. If being Jewish is an ethnic, then Jews can't be Persian. Persian is an ethnicity, not a nationality. If the argument is that Iran (which is the native name which was also used 2000 years ago, e.g. during Sasanian Empire) was named Persia in the West in the past, it is also not applicable. The reason for that is that the name changed in the year 1935 in the West from Persia to Iran. Nearly no Jew migrated before 1935 from Iran to Israel. Furthermore, many Jewish migrants of Iran did not migrate from Persian speaking regions, but from Lurish, Tat, Azeri or any other non-Persian speaking region from Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.14.1.37 (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't here to correct usage. It reflects usage: see WP:COMMONNAME. This group has long been known as "Persian Jews", so they're listed in the same way that Jerusalem artichokes are covered by Jerusalem artichoke because that's what they're called despite being neither artichokes nor from Jerusalem. Largoplazo (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Source issues

Care to explain why Tehran Times and Press TV are not realible sources? I know they are ordinary media outlets but some view it as propaganda outlets for the Islamist regime that brainwashes and disseminate information posting false and antisemitic stories there. —174.88.88.167 (talk) 19:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Changes under the new president

Does anyone have information about the new president's attitude towards Jews and its implications for current Jewish life in Iran? Preceding unsigned comment added by POR613 (talk) 00:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

History

Since this is an encyclopedia and not a work of Biblical history, it might be better to have historians and third-party valid sources rather than over-reliance on exclusively Biblical references. Yes, I understand that much research has been done to try to determine what parts of the Bible and Tanakh have historical validity, but that's not the point of this article.--Parkwells (talk) 20:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


I agree. The Biblical references should only be used when referring to specific passages, etc. They should not be used as an actual history source.WackoJackO 08:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

fix the following on this wikipage

"It has been reported that Jews in Iran are proud of their heritage??. Thus, they have not settled in Israel despite being encouraged by some groups. [58]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.39 (talk) 06:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Based on the article itself it seems to rely 100% on Biblical history and not archaeological or anthropological history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.157.27.56 (talk) 03:34, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Removal of sourced information

@Mostafa mohsenkha: Feel free to take your concerns here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:27, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

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