Talk:Paul Crouch

Untitled

I mislabelled my last update as a "footnote", which it's not. Anyway, I added links to the LA Times article referred to in the body of the article, plus the TBN web site, so people can verify stuff. --rob 07:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

POV

I think this article has a lot of strong hints in it of bias. Because it focuses more on the allegations of the person rather than the actual person and what he does. Therefor I think this article should seriously be reconsidered and edited to have a more balanced reading. I would like to know more about his family and occupation, (without hints of bias). --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.129.113 (talk • contribs)

You're welcome to edit it yourself if you know of verifiable information about him. But as I said on the talk page for Jan Crouch, how do you sound neutral in an article about someone who is effectively a crook? -Locke Cole 20:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. The man's a crook, and it's not "bias" to call a snake oil salesman a snake oil salesman.

Ringo, 17:10, 8 August 2006

Prove it

Prove it.

There is more to him than one article, the allegations of which have not been verified as fact, but all you seem to focus on in your bias.

The man has done a lot of great things and won many awards. He has many notable, well written about accomplishments. I would write about them, but what's the sense with some of you deleting everything on Wikipedia every 5 seconds that you don't like, fact or not.

-Sonustar

He is also a liar. --66.218.18.250 20:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it's a biased article

I would say the initial summary, though very short, is good, but needs to be bolstered with more detail in his broadcast history and what role he played in Christian broadcasting. The only supplementary information has to do with criticism and controversy, and the quotations are all of the most unflattering kind. He may be a snake-oil salesman, but to understand him we need to understand his appeal. He has had a huge following for a long time. Another possible connection to follow up on: is his son "Andrew Crouch" the Andy Crouch that is formerly of Re:generation quarterly, writes for Christianity Today occasionally, and now has a website called CultureMakers?

Interesting

This is biased, if you could see the houses they own in the Colleyville, TX area, you would wonder about the aleged spending habits. The houses they live in while in TX resemble mobile homes in some fashion, very run down. I agree, more of Paul's story needs to be here!

NPOV tag

Please do not add tags without giving a detailed explanation for it. We don't let tags stay or bogus claims stay. Both are to be removed if the claims/tags aren't without reason. Arbustoo 23:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Updated Bio/Neutral Sources

I have updated the basic facts regarding Paul Crouchs' career in broadcasting, and the network he founded. I have added credible neutral sources which verify statistics on the size of Trinity Broadcasting Network, awards, citations, and rating in the US as the 6th largest Broadcast Group. I have attempted to leave original content and only moved its location so that the paragraphs flowed in a logical fashion. In some places, the new information was more accurately cited, so old information that stated the same fact was replaced, but not restated in a way that took away from the original intent of the editor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellen Brichetto (talk • contribs) 19:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge

I've proposed that Jan Crouch be merged into this article. Jan being the co-founder of TBN means that it might not be appropriate just to delete her article, but her notability is entirely dependent on the network rather than on independent coverage of her, so it's better to merge any useful content into this article and perhaps rename it "Paul and Jan Crouch." Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:44, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The article for Jan Crouch is an independent overview of her career with TBN, but also her personal contribution to the Smile of a Child Foundation, and her personal project, The Holy Land Experience and other works that are not central to the article about Paul Crouch. Jan Crouch is a stand alone personality and should have her own article.71.97.55.109 (talk) 03:30, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Smile of a Child doesn't appear to be notable, so her status as its founder and president doesn't contribute to notability. HLE's website gives no indication of her being involved in its administration in any way, so whether or not that would contribute to independent notability is a moot point. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:31, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Jan Crouch founded the Smile of a Child Foundation, and Smile of a Child Tv, a 24 hour network for children. SOAC foundation's humanitarian contributions to Haiti have been recognized by the United Nations and received special consultative status with the Economic and Social Council for the Democracy Coalition Project. Jan Crouch is the President of Holy Land Experience, and runs all the day to day operations. According to Wikipedia's criteria for a stand alone article, she meets that criteria.71.97.55.109 (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

This is not substantively different from the comment I replied to, but you haven't addressed the criticisms I made of it in my reply, namely that Smile of a Child is not notable per Wikipedia guidelines, which require significant coverage in reliable sources, and that the HLE site doesn't say that Crouch has ever done so much as sweep floors for the park, let alone run its operations. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, the article did need more neutral sources. New reliable, significant and independent sources have been added to this article from third party sources that establish Crouch's role as notable by Wikipedia standards. Crouch is listed as DCEO of HLE on a new source in the Wikipedia article from the Florida Dept. of State/Corporations Division. The United Nations has officially recognized the contributions of Smile of a Child foundation as notable (source in the article from the UN website), and Smile of a Child TV is a national network, and the only one of it's kind.. Additionally, Jan Crouch is a widely recognized TV personality which is documented in numerous third party publications (pro or con). Her professional, and broadcasting career is separate and uniquely different than that of Paul Crouch.71.97.55.109 (talk) 19:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

For the third time, Smile of a Child is not a notable organization, so her role in it is irrelevant. Businesses and charities are not automatically notable, and people associated with them, even less so. The fact that they have a TV channel doesn't make them notable - that TV channel is on the station run by their founder! Hardly independent recognition. The sources added confirm that she is president of HLE, but that isn't a notable position. See WP:BIO (which doesn't even mention "founder of something" as a notable position, so if someone else felt like it, they might well come in and say "who cares if she's the founder, she hasn't received any coverage in reliable sources"). Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Roscelese, respectfully, the UN thinks that Smile of a Child Foundation is notable. Crouch was personally recognized at the UN and awarded 'Special Consultative Status' because of the humanitarian contributions her foundation made in Haiti (an also after Katrina). Smile of a Child TV is not a TV channel, but an independent national cable network founded by Jan Crouch,and carried on Verizon,Comcast,and ATT Uverse. It airs in 35 major US cities, or 20 million homes. Crouch started this network, and manages programming. Stats attached: <re>http://www.tbnnetworks.org/downloads/TBN_Networks_info.pdf</ref> (pages 27 - 28, 36, 38) All of these credits aside, by virtue of Jan Crouch's broadcast personality, and very widely acclaimed, or disdained TV persona, she qualifies for her own article. Crouch's position as DCEO of HLE, is just one of her bio credits, while notable, it is one credit included with her other credits that do qualify her for an article. I am not sure that I understand your POV. It does not seem NPOV. I would welcome a neutral Wikipedia editor's opinion on this. It seems more like you just don't like anything Crouch has contributed, no matter what sources are cited, or which criteria qualifies her for a page. She is certainly a well-recognized TV celebrity that is either disliked or admired by many. On those grounds alone, she meets the criteria for a Wiki article. Respectfully71.97.55.109 (talk) 21:46, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The UN doesn't think Smile is "notable," it gives it a one-sentence mention in a long list of charities who have done good work, and the "special consultative status" was awarded to the organization rather than to Jan personally. I see no evidence that her name ever came up. And claiming that their TV channel/network is independent from TBN is like claiming that Nick Jr. is independent from Nickelodeon - her notability for founding TBN is why I didn't recommend this for immediate deletion and instead proposed a merge, but she doesn't gain added notability for the Smile of a Child network which, as I said, is a sub-network of TBN. You don't get to double-dip. As well, if she is so widely acclaimed or notorious, information about her should appear in reliable, independent sources. If she's so famous, why don't any reliable sources care? (There's Encyclopedia of women and religion and a vaguely satirical article in The Advocate, which doesn't amount to much.) And finally, before you baselessly accuse me of disruptive editing, look to the beam in your own eye - you do nothing on Wikipedia but promote the Crouch family, and if I feel it's worth it I may file at WP:COIN so that users unaffiliated with the subject may have a real discussion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The UN does think that Smile of a Child Foundation is notable, or they would not have awarded them, and the other charities on their list recognition of their charitable works, and a legitimate "special consultative status". Jan 'is' SOAC Foudation and went to the UN personally for this honor. Smile of a Child TV network is not independent, but owned by TBN. She and her husband started this network out of a bus 38 years ago. What happened to give credit to women when it's due? The whole concept, planning, programming etc. of SOAC TV was very much Jan Crouch's project. You are a prolific supporter of the arts, so I am speechless that you continue to demean and minimize the enormous contributions of Jan Crouch. She has been involved with TBN, and the evolution of all their associated networks, and the acquisition of Holy Land Experience, and the fact that she lives in Orlando and goes to 'work' every day at the age of 76ish to manage the day to day operations. I can assure you, that one if not all of these lifetime achievements is notable. You are a very intelligent author/editor. I have looked at your pages. They are very well done, and I appreciate your passion for what you support in the arts. This discussion though, seems so contentious and illogical. Why do you dislike this network and it's founders so much? COI. I believe you can write a great article about something or someone you are passionate about, as we both have done. You have to love or at least 'like' what you write about. This doesn't mean COI. Let's face it. ALL of the articles on Wikipedia that we either wrote or have contributed to are not yours or mine, and are subject to massive edits. That's the beauty. They are community property ruled by very strict rules of NPOV. All of the articles in this discussion have been vetted, edited, hacked etc. by many Wikipedia editors. All of whom have for the most part been very reasonable. In this case, you seem to dispute every source, every argument, every POV, to the point of ?? Articles can be improved always. That's a sound discussion. Notability? Frankly, the Crouch family is beyond notable and not always in a good reference. Millions love them, and millions hate them. They border on notorious. respectfully. BermudaWoman (talk) 23:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The UN doesn't think it's notable, it thinks it's helpful. The two are not synonyms. All these things about her being 76 and living in Orlando are very nice - I myself know some wonderful elderly ladies who live in Florida - but this is irrelevant. As I've said, what, six times now, she has not received coverage in reliable sources, nor has she any significant achievements apart from founding TBN with Paul. Hence the proposed merge rather than a proposed deletion. If she's so very notorious, surely you can provide evidence of her notoriety, rather than merely your assertion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:03, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

References

Backmasking

Why are there no mentions of the backmasking controversy he started? It did bring him to public attention, seeing as he acused a number of high profile artists of promoting Satanism through backmasking techniques. --Spence The Chef (talk) 07:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Compensation of the Crouches

I added the following sentence to the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) history section, "Paul Crouch received $400,000 in executive salary as president and his wife $365,000 as first vice president." It was based on the May 2012 Family Battle Offers Look Inside Lavish TV Ministry article in the New York Times. User:Lyonscc, who seems to have concerns about publicizing controversial information about top executives of religious nonprofit organizations in general, and compensation data in particular (see Salaries of the Hanegraaffs, Cleanup of Article, and "String of controversies" and compensation) removed the sentence, despite all the reasons I identified in our dialogues in the Talk:Hank Hanegraaff article. I'm admittedly a newbie to Wikipedia editing, so my earlier rationales for adding compensation data were uninformed, but my latest post ("String of controversies" and compensation) hopefully represents a more knowledgeable perspective.

I'm moving the sentence to the Criticisms and controversies section where, based on the source article title and content, it more appropriately fits.

Ralph Dave Westfall 15:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Westfalr3 (talk • contribs)

WP:BLP

Paul Crouch may be dead, but other people named in the article are not; please note that all references to living people still need to abide by Wikipedia's biographical article policy relating to living people. -- The Anome (talk) 17:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

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