Talk:Palestinian exodus from Kuwait (1990–91)

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Rename[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Palestinian expulsion from Kuwait → 1991 Palestinian exodus from Kuwait – I suggest to rename this to "1991 Palestinian exodus from Kuwait", because Palestinian expulsion can be interpreted both as expulsion of Palestinians and mistakenly as expulsion by Palestinians. Please vote support or oppose.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Can you give an example of this ambiguity you refer to above? I don't see that 'expulsion from' can be mistaken as to subject given a normal understanding of English. It can only mean the expulsion of Palestinians, not expulsion by Palestinians. To call it an 'exodus' however will then add the implication that it was voluntary, something that was probably not the case for most of the Palestinians involved. Imc (talk) 20:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Exodus" is not strictly voluntary, see 1948 Palestinian exodus. "Exodus" however is a more NPOV concept.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Expulsion (or some variant) is the more accurate term and is the one most commonly used by the sources. -- Mrmatiko (talk) 20:55, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't see how the title could be interpreted as expulsion by Palestinians, that doesn't really make sense. I guess "exodus" and "expulsion" could be interchangeable, but as of yet I don't see a prevalence of scholarly or journalistic sources describing it as "exodus" instead of "expulsion," although I have seen a few where both terms are used. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The current title is clear and describes the event accurately. Imc (talk) 19:18, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Call a spade a spade. Expulsion is less ambiguous than exodus. In the case of the 1948 "exodus", it's more accurately called terrorist ethnic cleansing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MathewMunro (talk • contribs) 09:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Exodus not an expulsion[edit]

It was an exodus rather than an expulsion. Half of Kuwait's 400,000 Palestinian population voluntarily fled Kuwait during the Gulf War due to harassment and intimidation by Iraqi soldiers, in addition to getting fired from work by Iraqi authority authorities. Thus 200,000 of the initial 400,0000 voluntarily fled and the remaining 200,0000 in Kuwait after the Gulf War were not expelled per se. Some of the 200,000 were deported, however the majority were pressured to leave due to economic burdens (such as, dismissal from work, the withdrawal of free education, free health care, subsidies and other benefits such - landowners raising rents for Palestinians).

Many sources identify it was an exodus, examples:

  • "Human Rights Watch" (PDF). Human Rights Watch. October 1991. p. 14. The Exodus of Palestinians from Kuwait
  • Eyal Benvenisti, Chaim Gans, Sari Hanafi (2007). "Israel and the Palestinian Refugees". p. 29. The third case concerned the exodus of 350,000 of Palestinians from Kuwait and other Gulf States, most of whom went to Jordan.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  • Nicholas Van Hear (1998). "New Diasphoras". p. 86. The mass exodus of Palestinians from Kuwait

There was a great exodus of Palestinians from Kuwait during July and August, partly attributable to fear of abusive actions by the Kuwaiti security forces, but also brought about by economic necessity.

  • "Mistrusting Refugees". p. 99. As a result of that campaign, the Palestinian community in Kuwait was reduced within a few months from four hundred thousand to less than fifty thousand. The harrowing narrative of the survivors of this new exodus,
  • "To Rule Jerusalem". 2000. p. 411. The postwar grafitti in Kuwait - "Amman, 1970; Beirut, 1982; Kuwait City, 1992" - foretold yet another Palestinian exodus.

Insomniaingest 21:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Revert of unilateral rename[edit]

I've reverted the second rename of this article to 'Palestinian exodus ...', both of which occurred after and contrary to the rename discussion at the top of the page, and without further discussion here. Imc (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the section above you, 'Exodus not an expulsion'. The rename discussion at the top of the page can't be modified since it's closed, I couldn't contribute anything to it. Insomniaingest 21:11, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's how it works, discussions have to end at some point if the intent is to make and act on decision. If you want to argue against it, you can raise another discussion at WP:RM. You can refer to your post above. Imc (talk)

Requested rename[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page not moved: no support other than nominator Ground Zero | t 01:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Palestinian expulsion from Kuwait → Palestinian exodus from Kuwait – The title is misleading, 400,000 Palestinians were not expelled from Kuwait. During the Gulf War, half of Kuwait's 400,000 Palestinian population voluntarily fled Kuwait, partly due to harassment and intimidation by Iraqi soldiers. 200,000 of the initial 400,0000 voluntarily fled and the remaining 200,0000 after the Gulf War were not expelled per se. Following the Gulf War, some Palestinians were deported, while many others fled Kuwait due to economic burdens (such as, dismissal from work, withdrawal of free education and free health care, reduction in subsidies and other benefits - landowners raising rents for Palestinians).

Wikipedia is supposed to maintain a policy of neutrality. Most sources identify the event as an exodus:

  • "The Palestinian Diaspora". p. 67. Regulations on residence were considerably tightened and the general environment of insecurity triggered a continuous Palestinian exodus.
  • "Mistrusting Refugees". p. 99. As a result of that campaign, the Palestinian community in Kuwait was reduced within a few months from four hundred thousand to less than fifty thousand. The harrowing narrative of the survivors of this new exodus,
  • "To Rule Jerusalem". 2000. p. 411. The postwar grafitti in Kuwait - "Amman, 1970; Beirut, 1982; Kuwait City, 1992" - foretold yet another Palestinian exodus.

--- Insomniaingest 23:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - First look at the numbers. Web search expulsion 9900 hits, exodus only 600 hits. And in book search "expulsion+of+palestinians+from+kuwait"&tbm=bk expulsion 66 hits compared with exodus 36 hits. Second, you provide a long list of usage of 'exodus' to make your case but you have provided no opposing list for comparison, even though it looks as if it will be easier to get the numbers for it. Finally, your lead text seems to be self contradictory to me; it seems you describe many forms of compulsion as voluntary, e.g. half of Kuwait's 400,000 Palestinian population voluntarily fled Kuwait due to harassment and intimidation is pretty much self-contradictory. Imc (talk) 19:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A Google web search is not a reliable indicator since many search items are from blogs and forums. Wikipedia is supposed to maintain a policy of neutrality. Iraqi soldiers harassed and intimidated some Palestinians in order to pressure them into supporting Sadddam Hussein. According to the source, 200,000 Palestinians fled Kuwait during the Iraqi occupation due to various reasons (food shortages, medical care difficulties, financial shortages, dismissal from work, fear of arrest and mistreatment at roadblocks by Iraqi soldiers). Iraqi soldiers didn't expel 200,000 Palestinians during Kuwait's occupation. Insomniaingest (talk) 19:45, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed that google web search is not reliable for many things. That is why I provided the book search results as well, which also show many more hits for expulsion over exodus. The web search is however reliable enough to indicate general usage in Englsh, which is why I included it. Imc (talk) 16:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Imc's argument on usage, and because "exodus" is a very loaded term itself so it'll do nothing to make the article more neutral. I expect we'll get people complaining about it, especially since it'd suggest Palestinians were originally from Kuwait or some nonsense like that. True, not all Palestinians were deported, but they did not leave Kuwait voluntarily (as Imc pointed out), and it makes perfect sense to use the term used by the press at the time and in academic books since. —innotata 23:06, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Numbers and sources[edit]

Halo N.Y., Egeymi, JJMC89, Ypedia1, Technetium 99m, Iskandar323, Richard ruffian, Nableezy

The source given to support 357,000 as the number of Palestinians in Kuwait before the invasion, Lesch, Ann M. (2005). "Kuwait". In Mattar, Philip (ed.). Encyclopedia of the Palestinians pages 289–290"[1] doesn't mention that figure. The entry's first sentence, on page 288, starts "Prior to the Iraqi invasion on August 2, 1990, nearly 400,000 Palestinians lived in Kuwait"[2] which is similar to Lesch's "Prior to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait on 2 August 1990, there were nearly 400,000 Palestinian residents in Kuwait.", the first sentence of her Journal of Palestine Studies article[3] (cited to support "roughly 18 percent of Kuwait's total population, which was approximately 2 million people at the time" which doesn't appear in the JPS article). The entry also seems to be cited to support "another 287,000 Palestinians were forced to leave" which doesn't appear there.

In the Iraqi occupation section "Out of the initial 350,000 people of Palestinian descent who resided in Kuwait in mid-1990, more than 200,000 fled Kuwait" appears without a citation.

In March 1991 exodus "200,000 Palestinians were still residing in Kuwait, out of the initial 400,000" appears but the cited source has "estimated 150,000 Palestinians who remain in Kuwait, out of about 450,000"[4].

Various figures for the number of Palestinians in Kuwait are mentioned by sources not cited in the WP including different entries in the Encyclopedia of the Palestinians.[5] Mcljlm (talk) 03:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MathewMunro Did you see the above? Mcljlm (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first paragraph was:
'The Palestinian exodus from Kuwait took place during and after the Gulf War. There were approximmately[sic] 357,000 Palestinians living in Kuwait before the country was invaded by neighbouring Iraq in August 1990. The Kuwaiti government policy which led to this exodus was a response to the alignment of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in favour of the Iraqi invasion and occupation of Kuwait. It was a form of collective punishment.'
The re-write states:
'The Palestinian exodus from Kuwait took place during and after the Gulf War. There were approximately 357,000 Palestinians living in Kuwait before the country was invaded by neighbouring Iraq on 2 August 1990. On August 10, 20 Arab League countries at an emergency summit in Cairo drafted a final statement that condemned the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and supported the UN resolutions. Twelve Arab states supported the use of force while the remaining eight, including the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), rejected a military solution to the Iraqi invasion. According to the Washington Post, classified U.S. reports indicated that then PLO leader Yasser Arafat pressed then Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to make his withdrawal from Kuwait conditional on the withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights, and on August 12, Saddam announced his offer to conditionally withdraw. The Kuwaiti government policy which led to this exodus was a response to the position taken by the PLO. It was a form of collective punishment.'
I did not update the number of Palestinians expelled or the reference purporting to support it, I only updated the reasons for the expulsion/PLO position. I feel it is absolutely worth mentioning that Arafat was not alone among Arab leaders in opposing military action against Iraq. I also think it's a bit of a stretch to say they that "the PLO supported the invasion of Kuwait". It's one thing to be against the Gulf War and wanting to seek a peaceful, negotiated resolution, while also being restrained in what you can say publicly because of historical alliances with and dependence on Iraq (as the Al-Jazeera reference stated, 'During the 1980s, Iraq had helped supply the PLO with arms' - https://www.aljazeera.com/program/plo-history-of-a-revolution/2009/8/22/arafats-costly-gulf-war-choice), it's another thing entirely to be in favour of Saddam's invasion.
I think the Washington Post article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1990/08/26/why-arafat-backed-saddam/904a9366-c1e0-4294-ab64-1391b0e3b452/) correctly states: 'The invasion of Kuwait on Aug. 2 caught Arafat by surprise'. I think it's implausible that Arafat would've wanted Iraq to invade Kuwait. I think that Arafat tried to suggest to Saddam a way of out, a way of saving face, and a way of garnering Arab support. I think Arafat correctly calculated that if Iraq fell, Palestine would be significantly more at the mercy of Israel and the US, however, the military intervention was a fait accompli (unless there was an immediate and unconditional withdrawal), and the Palestinians, including those in Kuwait, would've lost less if the PLO hadn't gambled on trying to turn the Arab nations against the UN-approved military intervention.
If you want to update the number of Palestinians expelled and/or the references supporting that claim, go ahead. I suggest using freely available sources. MathewMunro (talk) 02:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofpa0000unse_s7e2/page/289/mode/1up?q=289
  2. ^ https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofpa0000unse_s7e2/page/288/mode/2up
  3. ^ https://www.jstor.org/stable/2537434 (https://www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/stable/2537434 and https://www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/stable/pdf/2537434.pdf)
  4. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/14/world/after-the-war-kuwait-palestinians-in-kuwait-face-suspicion-and-probable-exile.html (archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20130601134908/https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/14/world/after-the-war-kuwait-palestinians-in-kuwait-face-suspicion-and-probable-exile.html)
  5. ^ https://yplus.ps/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Mattar-Philip-ed.-Encyclopedia-of-the-Palestinians.pdf

Correct name?[edit]

The current name was a result of a unilateral cut-and-paste move post an edit war in 2016 without consensus or discussion (see [1]). Views on the correct name would be appreciated, before opening an WP:RM. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What do you consider is wrong with the current name? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See above RM discussions:
  • 2013: Palestinian expulsion from Kuwait → 1991 Palestinian exodus from Kuwait
  • 2014: Palestinian expulsion from Kuwait → Palestinian exodus from Kuwait
Both were opposed, and these are the only two discussions anywhere. So the debates are:
1. expulsion vs exodus
2. the need for dates in the title
Onceinawhile (talk) 22:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The RfC process is page name discussions. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but that requires a firm proposal. I don't have a strong view, so am inviting comments. The page name discussion can come as a next step. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:17, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't require a firm proposal. Use {{subst:requested move|?|fill in your rationale here}}, this leaves the new name open. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Practical experience has shown that open-answer WP:RMs almost never produce consensus. WP:RMs encourage votes rather than discussion. Here we need a two-step process - first discussion, then votes. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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