Talk:Orc/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

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Orcs Not Quite Tolkien's Invention

Per letter #25, Tolkien professed that The Hobbit was quite influenced by George MacDonald's work, inlcuding The Princess and The Goblin[1] To anyone who has read the book, the race of goblins in Princess is more than similar to the creatures described by Tolkien in Hobbit, with physical and cultural similarities, not to mention similarly antagonistic relationships with humans. I propose that the section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Tolkien.27s_Orcs be revised in the first paragraph to correctly reflect this influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.76.169 (talk) 19:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Orcs in Lineage 2

Orcs in Lineage 2 are not the strongest class, they are second strongest, tied with Humans at 40 base strength, while Dark elves start with 41 base strength.
http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/race_darkelf.html
http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/race_orc.html

Orc from Old English

I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien took the term 'Orc' from the Old English word for 'evil', as he took the word Ent from Old English, which meant giant. 71.251.57.206 00:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that the story is pretty well covered on this page (both article and discussion) already. --Iustinus 16:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Darkelf's Changes

Darkelf's additions are partially useful, but partially speculation that is, I think, a little too speculative for the article. Anyone else have an opinion? Jwrosenzweig 00:01, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've made a few minor changes to the language. Darkelf, do you think I'm still being accurate? Everyone else, does this put the article on better ground or worse ground, and should there be any further alterations about speculative Orc origins? Jwrosenzweig 00:15, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have no real problems with the recent edit. Since I do not consider myself an authority on Tolkien, but just an amateur Tolkienist, my attempt is not to speculate too much, but to clarify the Orc origin problem: if given time I will attempt and back up my claims with page references from HoME. I will add back a note about the Goblin King however, if you disagree and feel this is merely speculation, may I request the section is placed in this talk page perhaps? Darkelf 00:37, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)
While Tolkien originally saw all Orcs as descended from tortured Elves, later comments of his indicate, to some, that he began to feel uncomfortable with this theory. "Some" here includes Christopher Tolkien, in HoME, or at least that is the thought which I read in his words. Darkelf

I have begun adding source material backing up my arguments to this article, I would appreciate it if any over-quoting could be quickly warned of. I do not wish to submit more copyrighted work than is absolutely necessary. Darkelf 01:15, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)

I believe the quotes added are sufficient source to back up my arguments. If you disagree with (part) of my additions and remove it, please elaborate why here. Darkelf 01:35, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)
I agree with your contributions as to the origins of the Orcs. Your analysis matches what I have read elsewhere. JeMa 20:23, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

Warhammer Copyvio?

I looked into the Warhammer40K sections on Orks, and it is almost word for word of the official Warhammer 40K WebPage for those Orks. here This is Under Copyright according the the Games Workshop Web Page. However, I lack the Knowlege in the Orks of Warhammer to Edit this effectively. Also, I am new to the Wikipedia, and have been hesitent to do anything really, what with my bad spelling, and grammer. Headrattle June 25, 2004

Personal Orc

Why is my Orc removed? "It's an atypical" Orc? What's an typical Orc? Warhammer, Warcraft, Lord of the Rings.... everywhere Orcs look a little different. Can anyone show me a "typical" Orc? -- Panzi 09:26, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dividing the article

The article is getting quite long. Maybe we should move some of the longer sections to Orc (Middle-earth), Orc (Warcraft), Ork (Warhammer 40,000) etc. with only one or two-paragraph description for each in the main article? Ausir 12:29, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would add Orc (Dungeons & Dragons) to that list. Robbstrd 01:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

There were Orcs in Ultima, too, if I'm not mistaken. BOZ.

No, there were not (originally, if ever) orcs in Ultima. Players/roleplayers wore masks or heads and costumes. Earthsprite

An Orc 'family tree'

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to show a historical development of the 'orc' as in a family tree format, seperated into three 'generations', divided roughly into Historical (1st Generation), 70's/80's RPG boom (2nd Generation), Modern RPG/Computer Game (3rd Generation).

Perhaps something along the lines of;

Ancient Orc---->*

Blake's Orc---->*

Tolkien Orc----> D&D Orc----> Earthdawn and Shadowrun Orcs 

                   ----> Final Fantasy IX Orc

                   ----> Utopia Orc

      ----> Harn Orc

      ----> Warhammer Orc----> Warcraft Orc
I don't remember any orcs in Final Fantasy IX. Did you mean Final Fantasy XI? --69.234.208.76 01:08, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Orcus vs. Orca

I really think the Sources of the name "orc" should make a clearer distinction between the sea-monster "orc" (wich is really orca of course) and the humanoid "orc." Sentences like "Pliny the Elder wrote of orcs in his Historia naturalis, describing a sea monster with large teeth" are especially misleading. The sea-monster is from Latin orca, whereas the humanoid comes ultimately (via Old English) from Orcus. Latin dictionaries, at least, consider these to be separate words. --Iustinus 18:59, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, and many of the other relationships mentioned are also tenuous. Tolkien appears to have borrowed the word "orc" for his own rather distinct use; none of the prior uses refer to a populous race of humanoid monsters. Uses of the word "orc" or "ork" by modern game designers is highly derivative of Tolkien's use. The relationship of the modern word to the ancient sources seems casual at best. Silarius 00:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
In that context and thinking of it, the location in Scotland mentioned Cape Orcas, would that not rather be related to the seamonster. And (not being an expert in linguistics) would that mean a connection with Orca whales, in which case the location does not belog under this subject?--Ernie 10:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I guess we get one comment in this section per year. Notice that my original comment was made in January of 2005; quite a while ago. Anyway, I hadn't noticed Cape Orcas in the article. It's allegedly mentioned by Pliny, and I would love to check out that reference if we could get more specific information. Notice that there are other placenames in that list that expressly do not bear any relation to our orc. I think there's kind of a tendency for people to assume that everything that sounds similar to "orc" must be related (e.g. see #Chronological Order), and actually I think the section is meant to explain that these things are not related... it just doesn't seem to do a very good job. --Iustinus 16:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Wholeheartedly agree. Why is there no mention of Rogero and the Hippogriff in the article? I've had a number of books that have mentioned that the sea monster was the Orc, although they're all hard copies and no access to a scanner (plus I only have one remaining as I've had them over the course of my youth), so I've no real way to prove it up to Wikia's standards of practice. Can anyone else help clarify this? It was described as having a boar-like head, large tusks, and slimy green scales as hard as iron. -- Somarinoa (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Tolkien's Goblins

Wasn't another reason Tolkien used the term "Goblin" in "The Hobbit" because the book was written for his children, and he wanted them to be able to know what everything was?

Origin of Orc name

I must admit to being somewhat skeptical about the ties between 'orc-neas' and the classical 'Orcus.'

You see, I've added another of the inspiring texts for Tolkien's 'orcs', a tenth century Icelandic Old Norse text that refers to 'yrcs', as well as the Misty Mountains. Is there any evidence that the Classical 'Orcus' influenced the Norse Eddas? I don't claim to know, but I think this has to be addressed by someone who does, instead of assuming there is such a link. -- Eileen R

I agree that there should be some evidence of a relationship offered, other than letting the similarity speak for itself. Silarius 02:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Klaeber refers to Orcus in his glossary entry on "orc-neas". Whether subsequent scholars have given other etymologies, I don't know, but I believe Kleaber is the standard. He translates "orc-neas" as "evil spirits", while Chickering says "walking dead". In either case, please note that Grendel is not directly described as "orc-neas"; rather, "orc-neas" are, like Grendel, descended from Cain. Silarius 00:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't "orc" supposed to mean "pig" in Celtic or Gaelic (related to Lat. porcus)? Could the name simply mean "pig" because of the creatures' resemblance to those animals? I even remember the orcs in HOMM II and IV PC games being depicted as having pigs' heads, and I thought this was done intentionally in the interests of taking the meaning of "orc" too literally. Lucius Domitius 14:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

"orc-neas"

I feel like I've punched the tar-baby. "Orc-neas" is sticky and just won't let go of me. Misspent or not, in my youth, I studied Anglo-Saxon (A-/B+), Tolkien, and "Dungeons and Dragons" with equal fervor. I know, ladies, please, hold your applause 'til the end of the program. Below is a summary of my thoughts on orc-related topics; I would be glad to hear any supporting or dissenting thoughts before I start working on the main articles involved (Undead, Orc, Grendel)

1. Grendel is not called an "orc-neas": This term is not used to describe Grendel, but as part of a list of the monsters that are descended from Cain. Cain is blamed for engendering many different kinds of monsters, including "orc-neas". It is a misreading of the text to say that Grendel is a member of a race of monsters called "orc-neas"; rather, Grendel shares the same source as "orc-neas", along with other monsters. Saying that Grendel is undead is going too far; it is hard to say anything for sure about Grendel other than what is specifically stated in the poem; and remember, it is a poem, not a D&D adventure module.

2. "Orc-neas" itself is translated as "evil spirits" or "monsters" in Klaeber's glossary, and as "walking dead" in Chickering's translation. I might offer "underworld-corpses" or "hell-corpses" as inferior, but more literal, translations. This term is not found elsewhere in Anglo-Saxon; it may be a kenning specific to this author, used to describe ghosts, ghouls, and spooks in general. Klaeber reports that the "orc" part comes from Orcus (per Jacob Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie); so this seems to be a case of borrowing a foreign word. To say that there are orcs in Beowulf, or that orcs were a feature of Anglo-Saxon folklore on this basis, is going too far.

3. Orcus, orca, orc (sea monster), and Orcs may be related linguistically, but they do not refer to the same things, and should be treated under separate headings. If anyone can find reference to the purported lawsuit wherein TSR won the right to use the word "orc" based on its relation to Orcus and/or sea monsters, as if they hadn't taken it from Tolkien but had independently invented it based on their own research, it would be appreciated.

4. Orcs , properly defined as creatures of modern fantasy, are not undead. Silarius 02:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Middle-earth Orc origins

Does anyone actually need the quotations establishing the fluid genealogy of Orcs in Middle-earth? There are directly-referencing quotes that can be used, but there is also a quite a bit of thematic development, in the context of which the Orc-discussion becomes clearer (e.g., the nature of Morgoth and his bitter, failed attempts to create, the diffusion of his being into his mock-creations, the nature of Elvish 'reincarnation', etc.). Of course, it is critically important to reference all versions and revisions, as Tolkien's work is becoming viewed more and more as a body of created mythology or mythic history, and the 'version'/'contradiction' element necessarily gains in importance and power. To this end, I've added the information to the article (again?)black thorn of brethil 05:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Old Norse/Shippey

The Icelandic poem Skírnismál, generally dated to the first half of the tenth century, includes a passage

"Myrkt er úti,
mál kveð ek okkr fara
úrig fjöll yfir,
þursa þjóð yfir;
báðir við komumsk,
eða okkr báða tekr
sá inn ámáttki jötunn."

Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey translates it:

'The mirk is outside. I call it our business to fare over the misty mountains, over the tribes of orcs; we will both come back, or else he will take us both, he the mighty giant.

I removed the above because it does not relate to the origin of the word "orc". As can be seen from the text, neither the word "orc" nor any Norse cognate appear in it. The word Shippey has chosen to translate "orc" is þurs "giant, ogre". Shippey's use of the term may be influenced by Tolkien; it certainly does not show influences on Tolkien. RandomCritic 02:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Reorganizing the "sources" section

I've reorganized the 'sources' section to provide a clearer history of the term.black thorn of brethil 18:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that this does not look clearer to me, and in fact has obscured some points I have tried very hard to introduce to the article. Note especially the following:
  1. I made a point of separating the land orc (from Latin Orcus) and the sea monster (Latin orca). These terms are not etymologically related!
  2. Furthermore I think it is fair to give Pliny the Elder the benefit of the doubt here, and assume he was indeed describing what we now call the orca. It was later traditions that turned it into the sea-monster orc.
--Iustinus 20:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you are right to highlight the distinction, and I'll correct my revision, though I think you ought to be more open to the idea of an etymological connection. 'Orca' (which seems to come from gk: orux, orug [pickaxe and/or large fish/whale; perhaps all from the word 'to dig']) is indeed one of the (at least) 3 Latin words for 'whale' (the others being 'cetus' [gk: kitos] and 'balaena' [gk: falaina]), but rather more generically than you present. There is no evidence that Latin Orca (or Greek Orux) was used only of Orcinus Orca. That Pliny used 'orca' as the whale-term to apply to the beast he saw (though it certainly sounds like Orcinus) proves nothing, for the word existed in Latin and Greek before Pliny's report, which report presents the discovery of an unfamiliar beast (indeed Orcinus prefers cold, deep waters far from the Adriatic or Aegean!) Thus, Pliny's report actually demonstrates that 'Orca' was not a term restricted to Orcinus Orca only. If otherwise, Pliny would have had a new name for the previously unfamiliar [to Romans] Orcinus (or no need to describe it if familiar). The first recorded narrow application of the term 'orca' to a specific kind of whale (i.e., Orcinus Orca) came in 1846 from J. Richardson & J.E. Gray in The Zoology of the Voyage of HHS 'Erebus' & 'Terror'. Prior to this, the term 'orca' in English was used of any large fish or whale, especially when carnivorous: it was, in short, a category and not a species. That they called them 'beasts' and 'monsters' cannot be allowed to confuse us today. Those words originally were generic terms for wild or ominous animals (respectively).
But 'Orcus' (whence Italian 'orco', French 'ogre' and the 'orcthyrs' of Beowulf), as a Latin epithet for Hades and/or the Underworld, is possibly also derived from gk 'orux, orug' as these are words related to digging into the earth. Thus, it seems possible that Orca and Orc are indeed connected etymologically. The fact that they both refer, after so long a divergence (if they are related) to flesh-eaters from beneath the surface, well, that's just peachy. black thorn of brethil 22:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Blackthorn, I don't currently have the time or energy to write a full reply, but for now let's just say that I mostly disagree ;) --Iustinus 17:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

As the following contains an excessive amount of irrelevancy and error all through, I have deleted it. Comments follow: RandomCritic 14:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

RendomCritic- the text has certainly been a muddle, but I would rather not remove it wholesale. Why don't you write a nice clear paragraph for us to ruin? ;)
As for the orco/orca thing, that has been in this article since I first started working on it. At that point it was an utter mess: no distinction was made between the two at all, so I introduced some etymology and split the two creatures into subsections. It seemed to me that the "sea-orc" was basically another word and probably should be covered in another article, but I didn't have the hubris to do this myself at the time.

Sources of the word "orc"

In the following section, unmarked text represents material removed from the article by RandomCritic. Items marked with one bullet are RandomCritic's comments. Items marked with two bullets are Iustinus' comments

English has a bifold history with respect to the term 'orc'. In Beowulf (ll: 112), the Old English terms 'orc-þyrs'

  • Phantom word, never actually occurred in Old English.
    • Besides, as I told you in my email, it obviously comes from the Latin orca-thursio! (Note: this is a joke)

and 'orc-neas' appear in a list of the various monsters that sprang from the race of Cain

  • orcneas (note: plural) appears in this list together with "eotenas ond ylfe" and "gi[ga]ntas". Orc-þyrs does not.

(Tolkien, who took his word 'Orc' from Beowulf

  • Obviously he couldn't have, because the word "orc" doesn't occur in Beowulf.

, translated these as 'demon-giants' and 'demon-corpses', respectively)

  • Source? I'm not aware of a published Beowulf-translation by Tolkien.
    • No, but Tolkien did at one point discuss the occurence of this term in Beowulf, or at least the gloss at somepoint, didn't he?

This term

  • What term? Orc? Orcneas? The fictitious orc-þyrs?

is thought

  • Passive-voice weasel-wording.

to be related to the French term 'Ogre' (man-eating giant), which comes from the Italian 'Orco'

  • Italian isn't an ancestor of French. Nor could ogre be borrowed directly from orco and have that form (you would expect orc, like porc). Ogre points to an intermediate form *ocru(s) as its ancestor.

('demon', 'monster'), which comes from Latin 'Orcus' (etymology uncertain). 'Orcus', in Roman mythology, was an alternative name for Pluto, Hades, or Dis Pater, god of the land of the dead. The name "Orcus" seems to have been given to his evil and punishing side, as the god who tormented evildoers in the afterlife. Like the name Hades (or the Norse Hel, for that matter), "Orcus" could also mean the land of the dead.

But, in later English the term 'orc' (or its variant 'ork') is found used of a large fish, whale or sea-monster (whence 'orca' for 'killer whale' - first introduced as a biological classification in 1846). This sea-monster use of orc/ork seems to have been derived ultimately from the Latin 'orca' (meaning 'whale'). In his Natural History, Pliny the Elder described a creature that was "so monstrous and aggressive a whale, that no words are adequate to describe it, except as a huge mass of flesh armed with menacing teeth." Historia Naturalis 9.v.12

  • I don't see why the sea-animal needs to be discussed in depth at all.
    • As I confess above, this should perhaps be relegated to another article.

Pliny's famous description was, apparently, modulated through the long tradition of Medieval Bestiaries

  • Source? I don't recall any medieval bestiary that uses the word "orc".
    • OK, this is my fault. When Pliny describes an animal, and the name ends up being used for a monster, this typically can be blamed on bestiaries.


until the demon-corpse of Beowulf was rather forgotten and replaced by the unconnected (at least directly) sea monster.

  • As the word "orc" never occurs in Beowulf, there was nothing to forget.

From this later usage, orc/ork was popularized in English through Michael Drayton's Polyolbion, an epic poem about Brutus the Trojan, the mythical founder of Britain. It later appears in John Milton's epic poem Paradise Lost, again as a sea-creature; book 10 of Paradise Lost speaks of "The haunt of Seales and Orcs, and Sea-mews clang."

  • Yes, the word "orc" has been used to mean "orca" or similar carnivorous whales. It is irrelevant to the usage of "orc" in the Tolkienian and post-Tolkienian sense.
    • It is true that "orc" frequently does just mean orca, but don't some of these creatures seem mythologized enough to distinguish, much as we distinguish the viper from the wyvern?
      • I'm not aware of it being mythologized at all -- any more, anyway, than say a crocodile or elephant. In the dictionaries I've consulted it is usually characterized as a synonym for grampus, without any mythological overtones.

Returning again to the Orcus-Orco-Ogre branch, a land-dwelling orc appears in Orlando Furioso (XVII: 29). This "land orc" is a blind giant with a long nose and tusks jutting out like a savage swine. The land orc is a cannibal who holds king Norandino and his men captive in a cave. The story is reminiscent of the tale of Polyphemus.

  • In Italian the word is "orco" -- i.e. "ogre". It has nothing to do with sea-animals. The Italians at any rate had no trouble distinguishing orchi from orche. Anyway, this hardly illuminates more than the Italian word itself, and is quite unnecessary in this article.
  • (The orco is, of course, described as pig-like because it gave Ariosto a chance to rhyme orco with porco "pig".) This statement has no evidence to support it. Canto 17 or Orlando Furioso rhymes porco "pig" with sporco "dirty". Nowhere does Ariosto rhyme Orco with porco. In fact, the word Orco never occurs as the last word of any line in the poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noldrek (talk • contribs) 04:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Besides clear, if tenuous, etymological connections, the one thing common to all these conceptions (orco, orca, ogre, orc-þyr

  • there is no such word.

, sea-monster, orc) is the idea of a flesh-eating creature that comes from 'beneath' (be it beneath the waves, or from beneath the surface of the earth; either way, from the dark [even Furioso's giant is 'blind']) to terrorize and/or consume humanity.

  • This is all irrelevant, and it's not very helpful to tie the ogre-words, the dubious Old English sources (note that orc = demon never appears in any text that exists today, only in glossaries and there some of the evidence has been misinterpreted), and the utterly unrelated words for sea-creatures together.
    • Yes, this last bit, by Blackthorn, I find particularly objectionable. In any case, the fact that the evidence has been misinterpreted is rather beside the point, is it not, since what Tolkien thought matters more for our purposes then what modern scholars believe. --Iustinus 17:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Where to begin, WHERE to begin?
1. Orc-thyrs is not a "phantom word [that] never actually occured in Old English." Clip-clop out to Powells (or your village's equivalent) and purchase a thing called An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary by Bosworth and Toller. Turn to page 764. Browse (or skim, as seems more likely) until you find the word 'orc' (or 'ore' as the dictionary may have it transcribed). Don't stop at the first 'orc' [which is 'vessel', whence 'ark'], but carry on to the second 'orc'. There, you will find (among other things) "Orcþyrs oððe heldeófol (‘orc-giants or hell-devils’)". This is followed by an etymology (B&T found that it comes of L. 'orcus'), and a host of abbreviations that will direct you to (among other things) the glosses and/or texts wherein the term appears. As noted above by Iustinus, B&T and their ilk may be a a bit old-school, but that is what Tolkien would have studied up and down.
In the addenda and corrigenda to Bosworth and Toller, or one of the updated versions of the dictionary, you can see that the error is pointed out in B&T itself. Orcþyrs is indeed a phantom word; in fact doubly so. I deal with that in the correction.
Fair enough - orcþyrs is a phantom. Whence 'orc' for the phantom? (see 'cranberry' remarks below). The point also remains that Tolkien (starting on the cycle in 1916 as he did) would have trusted to the older B&T. But the most recent revision notes this.
2. The term 'orc' does appear in Beowulf, and I am at a loss to understand how RandomCritic could have mentioned the line from Beowulf in which the term occurs, and followed the mention with the remark that the term does not occur in Beowulf. It may be that RandomCritic doesn't think the occurance of the compound 'orcneas' doesn't 'count' as an occurance of 'orc'. Strange, if true. It would be tantamount to claiming that the term 'random' is not found in the handle 'RandomCritic' (of course, we all know that it is there - and quite appropriately so). But 'Orcneas' (singular would be 'orcen') is indeed a compound word and most likely not a kenning. Compounds and calques (e.g., OE 'godspell' for GK 'evangelion') were as common in OE as they are in modern English. As a compound, 'orcneas' is understood to be two ideas run together to capture a third - it is not the obliteration of its elements. Random wouldn't also claim the non-existence of 'neas' ('corpses'), eh? (We remember, of course, that the OE lexicon amounts simply to what was written down and has survived - that it is not OED of OE, so to speak.) But there could be no 'orcneas' without 'orc' and 'neas' (as there could be no 'worksheet' w/o 'work' and 'sheet', no doghouse w/o 'dog' and 'house', no RandomCritic w/o 'random' and 'critic'. 'Orc' simply must have been - if you get me.
The word orc doesn't appear: the word orcneas does. Just because an element appears in a compound, does not mean that it exists as an independent word. There is a word cranberry -- but no word cran, for instance. Some care needs to be taken in citations not to confuse reasonable deductions from the evidence with the evidence itself. We can deduce that there might have been a word orc combined with neas to produce the name of a monster. Unfortunately, this doesn't help us much with either the meaning or the origin of this element orc, and it's simply erroneous to claim that the word orc, by itself, appears with a relevant meaning in Old English.
'Cranberry' is nonetheless from 'crane-berry'. In all cases, the elements must have antecedents. On what basis could a compound be formed otherwise? The 'orc' must be from ... something. I am not familiar with the way OE assembled compound terms (such that a rule might be applied to deduce the stand-alone forms of the original elements). I'll look it up.
3. T A Shippey, in his Road to Middle-earth, is the source of the idea that 'orcþyrs' accompanies 'orcneas' as Tolkien's inspiration for his term 'Orc' (see footnote on pg 65 - Houghton Mifflin 2003 [revised and expanded edition]). Tolkien himself (your gut was right, Iustinus, if you'd only followed it up ...) remarked that "...the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability..." (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #144) This is also interesting for the question of how the idea of Tolkien's 'Orcs' is or is not related to what the OE poets meant when using 'orc' as an element in their demon-tags.
4. Yes, Virginia, there is a translation of Beowulf by Tolkien - in verse (partial) and in prose (complete). It is currently being edited by Micheal Drout (http://www.wheatonma.edu/Faculty/MichaelDrout.html). Publication is imminent. Maybe we should email him and see what he thinks? In fact, I've done so - I'll get back to you when he gets back to me. He answers emails, so it ought not to take too long.
When it's published, we can happily use it as a reference. As I said, there is no published translation.
5. It's not me who derives French 'ogre' from Italian 'orco'. That would be the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orc). Take it up with Douglas Harper, the editor. He answers emails too. At any rate, I'd like to understand how it is that French terms can't derive from Italian! That's a fascinating concept.
I said that Italian is not an ancestor of French. French words of course can be borrowed from Italian; but ogre can't come directly from orco. The citation for ogre in that dictionary suggests via an Italian dialect (presumably with the form ogro). A better citation would identify the dialect. We don't need to worry about that here because it's irrelevant (because orco is closer in form), but I accept that the French word can't be traced back further than the 17th century.
If you are maintaining that French 'ogre' comes of a variant of Italian 'orco', well .... res ipsa loquitur (I reckon).
6. I know Random doesn't see why the sea-thing 'orc' needs to be discussed in this article at all (that much, if nothing else, is patently clear). Is one really to be surprised at the idea of distinguishing homonyms? Apparently so. I'll give it a whirl nonetheless: People who actually read things (like Milton) might (will) come across the English word 'orc' (or 'ork') where it does not mean "evileyed-blackhanded-bow-legged-flint-hearted-clawfingered-foulbellied-bloodthirsty " (or thereabouts). Furthermore, people who read other things (like Tolkien) might on their own try to find an etymology for 'orc', and stumble across the 'orca' line (as 'orca' is indeed antecedent to 'orc', though not OUR 'orc'; OUR 'orc' is from 'Orcus', right?).
7. I must say I am not convinced, Random, and I think the section you spuriously deleted will need reinsertion (in some form). Comments? Questions?
black thorn of brethil 20:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I hope the replacement text answers some of your questions.
Some. Thank you.black thorn of brethil 22:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Etymology of the word "orc"

Discussion related to the new paragraph(s) here, please! RandomCritic 19:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

oops. I see you changed your mind a bit. Research does wonders. much better entry as it stands now, though a bit heavy on the 'internal' discussion of Tolkien's 'Orc' (quendi etc.). well done. black thorn of brethil 20:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Well done. But I think some (not all, mind you!) of the Tolkien stuff should be moved into the section on Middle Earth orcs. Also we should probably put up a disambiguation link at the top along the lines of "For the cetacean and mythelogical beast called "orc", see orca", then add to that article any of the deleted material on the "sea-orc" from this article that isn't already there. --Iustinus 00:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Almost perfect. Missing the note about Beowulf and 'orcneas', which certainly had an impact on Tolkien, however one might like to present it.black thorn of brethil 05:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Material on orks=sea-monsters (Ariosto, Drayton, Milton) has been placed under Orca; there is a pointer to Orca on the Orc (disambiguation) page; and more material on orcnéas appears in the etymology section. Material on Orcus has been placed in Orcus (mythology), together with a mention of the connection to orco and ogre. RandomCritic 12:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Pre-Tolkien use

Oddly enough, the OED does have a couple Pre-Tolkien attestations for this term! The online version of the entry is available here (but only with a paid membership). Here are the relevant citations:

1605 J. SYLVESTER tr. G. de S. Du Bartas Deuine Weekes & Wks. II. i. 337 Insatiate Orque, that euen at one repast, Almost all creatures in the World would waste. 1656 S. HOLLAND Don Zara I. i. 6 Who at one stroke didst pare away three heads from off the shoulders of an Orke, begotten by an Incubus. 1854 Putnam's Monthly Mag. Oct. 380/1 The elves and the nickers, the orcs and the giants. 1865 C. KINGSLEY Hereward I. i. 71 But beyond, things unspeakable–dragons, giants, orcs, [etc.].

(--Iustinus)

Insert this great stuff - it's the idea of an Orcus-orc in the midst of Orca-orcs and fairy-tale Ogres (though the first citation sounds like Orca). Also, sign yer name with the tildas! black thorn of brethil 21:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry, I forgot to sign. I am unsure why the OED thinks the 1605 quote refers to an orcus-orc and not an orca-orc. Presumably some of the context they don't give makes it clearer. The OED says that Tolkien popularized the word, rather than invented it, and indeed their pre-Tolkien citations are relatively thin, but it is interesting how the situation appears to be a little more complicated than what we've been saying so far. --Iustinus 23:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like the "Orke" from Don Zara may be an Anglicization of orco -- certainly the three heads are very ogrish. "Don Zara" is apparently a Spaniard and not an Italian, but the English have always been very bad at telling the two apart. The two 19th-century examples look like intended "Anglo-Saxonisms", but in both cases quite possibly confused with the orca-orc - in the first case orc is paired with "nicker" (=nicor, a water-monster) and in the second case the entire quote is "but beyond, things unspeakable,--dragons, giants, rocs, orcs, witch-whales, griffins, chimeras, satyrs, enchanters, Paynims, Saracen Emirs and Sultans, Kaisers of Constantinople, Kaisers of Ind and of Cathay, and beyond them again of lands as yet unknown". Nonetheless, it could easily be in some such source as these last that Tolkien first encountered the word "orc"; certainly the "Hereward the Wake" novel was very well known. RandomCritic 20:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The Spanish for 'ogre' is 'ogro', which is interesting considering the way the French 'ogre' may have been a literary invention based on some Italian variant of 'orco'. Does anyone have the OSD (Oxford Spanish Dictionary)? I'd like to see that etymology. Also, the modern Italian for 'ogre' is 'mostro' (cf. 'monster') while 'orco' is 'giant'. Allow me to reiterate: I think Iustinus ought to insert the info given above.-black thorn of brethil 20:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
p.s. I love the fact that 'orcs' and 'dragons' are paired with 'Saracen Emirs'.-black thorn of brethil 20:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I've read that ogro is a borrowing from French ogre, and not an independent development in Spanish; and that Spanish has actually had its own word descended from orcus, namely huerco "devil", "Hell personified". The Italian word orco can still be found defined as ogre.RandomCritic 04:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, words like "ogre" "troll" "elf" "giant" and so on are nototiously fluid, so I'm not sure that the equivalences made in a dictionary should be held to be all that rigid. I didn't know about huerco; tahat's cool!
I have 'huerco' (var. 'huercu') as being an apparition predicting imminent death - not as 'death' personified, but as a ghost (as it were) of the person about to die: a harbinger. There is also 'güercu' which in Asturias (region of Spain) has this 'harbinger' thing attached to it. Maybe these are folk-takes or some local uses of the broader 'huerco' coming from L. Orcus (who is, in a sense, death or hell personified). In some Mexican Spanish, you can call an evil person a 'huerco' (like some might call a brat kid a 'hellion'). At any rate, who is going to write up a paragraph from all the work done above and insert it? - much of it is relevant and useful - black thorn of brethil 18:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Very interesting. There's actually an English word for this definition of huerco -- it's fetch. RandomCritic 13:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Amusingly enough, a Google image search on the word huerco turns up nothing but cheesecake. Um... how "fetching" ;) --Iustinus 19:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The info is in. black thorn of brethil 04:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned by this part:
"As far as what otherwise might have influenced Tolkien, the OED lists a 1656 use of the term ‘orke’ in a way reminiscent of ogres and the like. Such usages seem to have come into English via fairy tales from the continent, especially from Charles Perrault (17th cent. France), who himself seems to have borrowed some of his stories as well as his word ‘Ogre’ from the 16th century Italian writer Giambattista Basile. Basile wrote in the Neapolitan dialect, using a form of ‘orco’ [modern It. ‘giant’] in a tale (Gagliuso) that Perrault transformed into Puss in Boots."
I have not been able to find a text of Basile in the original Napolitan; but in both English and Italian translations, there is no ogre in Basile's Gagliuso story, which restricts itself to the cat's attempts to enrich Gagliuso through imposture. There may be a better example. RandomCritic 16:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
True, true. We don't find 'ogre' in Giambattista's Gagliuso. But Corvetto is one tale where Giambattista uses a word translated as 'ogre' (looking for Italian original). Furthermore, Puss-n-Boots may be incorrectly attributed to Giambattista - rather it seems it should go to Straparola. But the 'cat-helper' is a genre unto itself, apparently, and that might explain the mistake. Amendations will be made shortly. black thorn of brethil 19:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Changes made to reflect more accurately the trail from Orcus to Orco to Huerco (and Orke) to Ogre and, finally, to Tolkien's 'Orc'. Basile (still cited as main source for Perrault's tales) used huerco/uerco/huorco in (at least) the tales Corvetto, Viola, Peruonto, The Flea, Canneloro, Parsley, The Three Sisters, The Serpent, The Dove, Cannetella, The Seven Doves, The Golden Root, The Three Citrons, and The Tale of the Ogre. Question - "Tolkien often explained the word 'orc' as meaning 'goblin' ..." Citation for this?. black thorn of brethil 01:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I don´t know very much of this subject and I usually avoid writing anything on english talkpages since I am not fluent in english, but in William Blakes Europe a prophecy (printed in 1794) there is a mytological character named Orc, invented by Blake as a symbol for the french revolution. Should this be mentioned in the article? Could Tolkien have read this book by Blake? /Hjommd (talk) 12:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
The Orc of Blake is a positive symbol of modernity, and it has been speculated (by Randal Helms [2]) that Tolkien named his creatures after Blakes as a parody of Blakes positive depiction of modernity. Tolkien being deeply conservative in his values saw modernism as monstrous. However the origin of "Orc" as an influnce/reaction to Blake isn't a very widely held opinion amongst those that study Tolkien, so I don't think Blakes Orc really belongs in this article, although mention in Tolkien Orc(Middle-Earth) page might be relevant. --Davémon (talk) 09:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Original Orc

I'm rather skeptical of this article. I seem to be hearing more about games, JRR Tolkien, and various Lord of the Ring books more than I'm hearing about the 'Orc' and its origins. I would do it myself, but I'm not sure how it would turn out, so I wish someone would go through and clean up this article a bit. Instead of constantly comparing the Orc with games such as Dungeons and Dragons, or JRR Tolkiens 'The Lord of the Rings', we should find more mythological background, rather than something that someone thought up over the original myth of the 'Orc'. Isn't this article supposed to be about the 'Orc' itself, rather than it's common use in video games, books, movies, or other forms of entertainment, media, or literature? Dudewheresmypizz4 14:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

For all practical purposes Tolkien's stories ARE the 'original myth of the Orc' as we know it. Everything we think of as an 'Orc' currently is derived from Tolkien's use of the term. Yes, Tolkien himself took it from 'orc-neas', which was related to Orca and Orcus... but those have existing articles. This article is about "Orcs"... and that means Tolkien and derivations of his work. The etymological connections should be noted, but there was no 'prior myth' of Orcs for this article to reflect beyond what it already contains and related derivations with their own articles. --CBDunkerson 16:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
'Dude': Did you read the Etymology section? Before Tolkien, the only other application of the term, when not applied to killer whales, was to the Ogres of Italian fairy tales (and in their translations), which beings aren't so very much like Tolkien's Orcs. For one thing, they live above ground, alone or in pairs, and are more like beastly humanoid giants than malformed humanoids. For another, they are often benevolent. The 'orc' of Beowulf is at best a Zombie (demon-corpse) by way of Latin Orcus. Between Zombies and Tolkien's Orc, there are only Ogres. Of course, you may have some other information. - black thorn of brethil 17:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Edit Over False Claims

The orcs are not undead, as the article claimed in the first paragraph. Rather, they are quite living mutated elves. They reproduce by spawning asexually, not by sexual reproduction, so contrary to popular notion, orcs do not breed with humans. Sauruman creats them by spliceing human characteristics through fell magic. Deepdesertfreman 13:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on which 'Orcs' you are talking about. Pre-Tolkien the term 'orc' WAS used for 'undead' creatures. Tolkien's Orcs DID reproduce sexually (there was mention of Gollum eating Orc children and Tolkien wrote directly that they "reproduced after the manner of the children of Iluvatar"). The 'asexual spawning' Orcs were invented by Peter Jackson and are not consistent with Tolkien's stories. --CBDunkerson 14:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
But as you yourself say above, "there was no 'prior myth' of Orcs." The article as it stood showed pretty clearly that calling the Old English orcnéas a form of undead is plausible, but totally speculative, given that it only occurs once in our entire corpus. There have been a handful of occurences of the word orc since then (as shown by the OED citations) but I see no reason to think any of them are undead; rather they generally seem to be ogre-like (when they are not simply orca-like). If you, user:HungTurk, or anyone else, can find pre-Tolkien "folkloric" uses of "orc" to mean some sort of humanoid monster or land-dwelling demon in English, that haven't already been dealt with in the article, I welcome them to provide references (Seriously, I would love to see such passages, if they exist, and they would certainly improve the article. But I won't be holding my breath.)
Frankly I am mystified by HungTurk's changes. His edits fly in the face of evidence given in the article. He also possibly doesn't understand that the Etymology of the word "orc" section is about how the word ended up in English, in the real world (which, I reiterate, can basically be summarized as "Tolkien coined the word, based loosely on an Anglo-Saxon root of questionable meaning," unless someone can show otherwise), whereas the Etymology of the word "orc" in Tolkien's fiction is about the etymology of the word in Tolkien's invented langauges of Middle-Earth. Or perhaps he understands the distinction but doesn't consider it important. I for one don't think those two sections should be merged, as they deal with totally different issues. --Iustinus 15:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Chronological Order

Shouldn't this article be in chronological order?

  1. Latin porcus
  2. Gaelic orc (young pig)
  3. French pork from Latin porcus
  4. Roman Orcus god/underworld
  5. Pliny's orc (Roman 10 AD)
  6. Tyrol ork folklore (someone deleted this from the article)
  7. Romanian folklore orco (someone deleted this from the article)
  8. Beowulf's orcneas
  9. Norse orkn (seal)
  10. Old Norse/Shippey yrcs (see above)(someone deleted this from the article)
  11. Medieaval bestiary orc
  12. Orlando Furioso orc sea monster 1516
  13. orcs in Polyolbion, 1500s-1600s England, Michael Drayton
  14. Giovanni Francesco Straparola and Giambattista Basile (16th century)
  15. Samuel Holland's Don Zara 1656 English orke
  16. Charles Perrault's orc (17th cent. France)
  17. Blake's orc (17th century)
  18. Tolkein's orc (1940s)
  19. Modern orc - games and fiction - Should split to new article.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.150.24.183 (talk • contribs)

You seem to want to include everything except for what the article is actually about. The etymology section is already in a basically chronological order anyway, only it has separated out unrelated words. But to answer your individual items one by one:
  1. What has Latin porcus to do with anything?
  2. The Gaelic word is of tangential relevance at best: see below.
  3. The French word porc is even less relevant than the Latin (and in any case would be much later chronologically)
  4. Orcus is definitely relevant, but I think he's pretty well covered.
  5. Pliny's orca has been moved to orca, and I think rightly.
  6. The Tyrolian ork is still in the article, see the Early modern usage section.
  7. I confess that I know nothing about the Romanian varient, but I suppose it might be appropriate to list it in the early modern usage section, with other Romance derivatives. Do you have any information on it?
  8. (Beowulf's orcnéas is thoroughly dealt with in the Old English influence section, and I don't see what needs to be added.)
  9. Again, superficial similarity of sound is not really relevant. Ørkn is already mentioned in the Similar words of distinct origin section, which is already more of a concession than is usual. I mean, the Wikipedia article on the Japanese Bon Festival, for instance, makes no mention of the French word bon "good".
  10. The Old Norse "yrcs" were deleted with good reason: as explained above, the word yrc does not occur in this passage nor (to our knowledge) is it attested anywhere in the Old Norse corpus (if you can prove us wrong, then please do). User:RandomCritic (the "someone" who deleted this from the article") explained: "I removed the above because it does not relate to the origin of the word "orc". As can be seen from the text, neither the word "orc" nor any Norse cognate appear in it. The word Shippey has chosen to translate "orc" is þurs "giant, ogre". Shippey's use of the term may be influenced by Tolkien; it certainly does not show influences on Tolkien."
  11. The medieval bestiary orc does not seem to exist. I added it to the article, on a guess (as I explained above: "OK, this is my fault. When Pliny describes an animal, and the name ends up being used for a monster, this typically can be blamed on bestiaries.") I had absolutely no source on this, so it was rightly deleted from the article. Again, if you can show us that this was done in error, then please do so. But even then, surely this should be in the orca article, not this one.
  12. This has been moved to orca, and I think rightly.
As for items 14-17... well there's not much more to say about them than what has been said, unless you have a bright idea. That is certainly an interesting section of the word's history, though. But I think RandomCritic is right when he says that this article should focus on the modern usage of the word, unless we can find evidence of real continuity with an earlier myth. I don't see why you (per item 19) think the primary usage of this word should be split off into a separate article, leaving this one a long ramble about similar sounding words throughout history. And would we need to include Orkish and Orchoe, cities much older than the Roman Orcus? Would we need to include the Hebrew word ’órekh (from Proto-Semitic *’urku) meaning "length"? The Greek orkhis meaning "testicle; orchid"? The Chinook olêk (pronounced something like [oɬʌk]), meaning "snake"? The Latin orcua "cup" which was also borrowed into Old English as orc? --Iustinus 17:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You (presumably) also wrote:

'Orc' is an existing Gaelic word. It means 'young pig'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.150.173.185 (talk • contribs)

I'm not sure what your point is, nor why you put this in the "sources" section above (I moved it down). I mean, (to give just one more example,) ’óger means "hamster" in Hebrew, but this doesn't mean that it is the etymon for ogre. It is indeed possible that the Gaelic word orc has influenced the depiction of orcs, since they are frequently shown with pig-like features, but even that's a stretch. It's more likely a simple case of rhyming (cf. Ariosto's orco). --Iustinus 17:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to add that there is alot more to be put under the section for Orc Music. There are specifically many Finnish and Scandanavian metal bands who refer to ocrs derogatorily very often. Many tracks such as Destroy The Orcs by 3 Inches Of blood (Canadian I must admint) and Slay the Orcs by Battlelore are completley serious (it seems) about anti-orc propaganda. okay this is starting to sound a bit ridiculous to me, Orcs dont even exist. But if someone would like to add a few referances to anti Orc music too it would be nice, it exsists, quite definatley. Those two songs are just two that have titles involving orcs that I can remember on the spot. Countless more mention Orcs, they seem to play a big role in Scandanavian folk metal.

Trollocs

I was curious if anyone would object to the addition of Trollocs to the article in sections 4 and 7. While not overly similar in physical respects, the "culture" of Orcs and Trollocs are very similar as is their function in their respective fantasy worlds. -SFFSteven 21:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of Orc names

I was in the British Museum recently, looking at the Ancient Near/Middle East exhibit (yes, this is relevent), and noticed an interesting list of Babylonian kings.

A few choice selections (taken from the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_kings, which uses some slightly different spellings):

  • Urzigurumash
  • Gulkishar
  • Peshgaldaramash
  • Kurigalzu
  • Nazibugaš
  • Šagarakti-Šuriaš
  • Nergal-ušezib

Does anyone else think these names sound particularly orcish?

And if so, does anyone think that (or know if) Tolkein may have used ancient Babylonian/ Mesopotamian names and languages as inspiration?

There was an ancient Mesopotamian city called "Uruk".Wardog 21:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Orcs in comparison to human racial types

Uthanc's recent changes rather worried me. We probably shouldn't be making such charged statements unless we can back them up with citations. So I consulted with RandomCritic, who knows an awful lot about Tolkien, to see what he could add to this. He gave me the original quote, with a following remark:

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (Houghton Mifflin 1981), p. 274:
"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."
N.b. that this is in a letter, not in The Lord of the Rings or other work. I suspect that the description owes something to Jordanes' description of Attila: "forma brevis, lato pectore, capite grandiore, minutis oculis, rarus barba, canis aspersus, simio naso, taeter colore, originis suae signa restituens."

The comparison to Attila is fascinating. But all in all, I am unsure if this obscure quote adds enough to the article to make it worth the controversy it is likely to cause, at least as currently phrased. But I thought I'd get the oppinions of other Wikipedians, rather than revert that section outright. What do you others think. Should we keep it? Delete it? Rephrase it? --Iustinus 20:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Er, I should specify that when I talk about changing phrasing, I mean of the article, not of the quote! Really the question is, should we modify the article to more accurately reflect this quote, or should we revert it to the way it was before. --Iustinus 21:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Italian "orc"

The claims made above about "orc" having no connection with sea-monsters is -- not true. Orlando furioso contained just such a seamonster [3], but I'm still pondering how to incorporate the information. Certainly it looks like the Italian term was looser and was narrowed when it was drawn into English, because only some of its meanings were absorbed.Goldfritha 03:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you might not be understanding what is meant when we say there is no connection:
  1. There is an English word "orc" that refers to a type of whale or sea-monster. This is equivalent to Italian and Latin orca, and references to it are covered under the wikipedia article orca.
  2. There is an English word "orc" that refers to a type of humanoid monster. This is equivalent to Italian orco, which comes ultimately from the Latin orcus. References to this monster are appropriate for this article.
These two words are not directly related in any way: they are just homonyms. --Iustinus 22:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Orc = porc

Description of the Land Orc from Orlando Furioso (1516) Canto XVII, 29-30.

29 Mentre aspettamo, in gran piacer sedendo, che da cacciar ritorni il signor nostro, vedemo l'Orco a noi venir correndo lungo il lito del mar, terribil mostro. Dio vi guardi, signor, che 'l viso orrendo de l'Orco agli occhi mai vi sia dimostro: meglio è per fama aver notizia d'esso, ch'andargli, si che lo veggiate, appresso.

30 Non gli può comparir quanto sia lungo, sì smisuratamente è tutto grosso. In luogo d'occhi, di color di fungo sotto la fronte ha duo coccole d'osso. Verso noi vien (come vi dico) lungo il lito, e par ch'un monticel sia mosso. Mostra le zanne fuor, come fa il porco; ha lungo il naso, il sen bavoso e sporco.

William Stewart Rose Translation (1831) of the Above Stanzas 

              XXIX

"While, with much solace, seated in a round, We from the chace expect our lord's return, Approaching us along the shore, astound, The orc, that fearful monster, we discern. God grant, fair sir, he never may confound Your eyesight with his semblance foul and stern! Better it is of him by fame to hear, Than to behold him by approaching near. 

              XXX

"To calculate the griesly monster's height, (So measureless is he) exceeds all skill; Of fungus-hue, in place of orbs of sight, Their sockets two small bones like berries fill. Towards us, as I say, he speeds outright Along the shore, and seems a moving hill. Tusks jutting out like savage swine he shows, A breast with drivel foul, and pointed nose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noldrek (talk • contribs) 05:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Some Images?

Er, might I suggest the addition of a few images from the three Lord of the Rings movies? I think it would improve the article if the reader could see an actual image of an Orc, instead of just one Orc from a comic and one from a play. --152.38.17.11 20:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Orcs, evil?

Are orcs evil? I recall Tolkien writing that they were elves twisted by Morgoth, being filthy, ugly, warmongering etc but were they evil?

  • Yes, they are indeed evil.

Fallout

"The Fallout series of games featured a race of Super Mutants, who physically and mentally resembled fantasy Orcs (big, green, ugly, not too bright, etc.). The only difference is that the Super Mutants are quite adept at using advanced weapons like plasma rifles and laser chainguns; however, Orcs could be taught to use those too."

I suggest removing the above part. Super Mutants don't strike me as orc-like. Further more under the same criteria (green, ugly, not too bright) and taking into account their smaller size we would label ghouls as goblins. Thoughts?

What was Tolkein referring to?

In the book "The Hobbit" J.R.R. Tolkein referred to orcs as goblins. But in one sentence, when Gandalf was advising them to go through Murkwood, he said that they shouldn't go north-around because there were "goblins and hobgoblins and orcs" in the northern mountains. I could understand the "hobgoblins" being some sort of evil counterpart of hobbits, but what was he referring to as "orcs", seeing as he was referring to "orcs" as "goblins"? This question is driving me crazy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.220.201.200 (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Hobgoblin has nothing to do with hobbit. It's another monster name that's long been in the language, and at least in D&D it's taken to be a creature related to goblins, but larger and more dangerous. I dont' think Tolkien refers to hobgoblins elsewhere (though I could be wrong), but there has been some discussion that perhaps goblins are specifically subteranean orcs. Whether or not that is the case, it does seem logical to speculate that Gandalf is referring to three different varieties of orc. --Iustinus 19:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien does refer to orcs a second time as "elves tortured beyond recognition who finally lost the soul of the living and bade away the sun. In the LotR games, Orcs, Goblins, and Uruk'Hai are all seperate and distinct enemies. User: Cpettijohn93

copyvio problem

The Elder Scrolls description of Orcs begins with a very clear copyvio copied just about verbatim from the Morrowind manual. 72.195.158.180 02:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Orc Creation

Hi everyone! I think I have spotted an error on this page. It says that Tolkien orcs are made of mutated elves. From what I hear, this is only partly true. I heard that orcs are made from dead bodies and a magical substance. Any comments?

Sauronorcurukhai 15:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)Sauronorcurukhai

It's in The Silmarillion. I don't remember any non-Elven ingredients. 75.71.37.218 01:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

WHAT THE heck

THAT IS ONE stupid PICTURE OF AN ORC RIGHT THERE —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.205.250.203 (talk) 05:53, August 23, 2007 (UTC)


I'm sorry, but I will have to agree.... User: Cpettijohn93 —Preceding comment was added at 17:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Any inspiration?

Altough Tolkien invented the commonly known "orc of modern times, what kind of inspiration could he have recieved from alternate authors? He does mention the "orcs" specifically as well as describe them. In most other literary works, the author tends to leave out any kind of description of the people.

Please see my entry Orcs Not Quite Tolkien's Invention on this page. Tolkien cited George MacDonald's The Princess and the Goblin as inspiration for The Hobbit. MacDonald's Goblins are surely primary source material upon which the concept of Tolkien's race of orcs was based. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.76.169 (talk) 19:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, please try to incorporate more illustrations showing different types and personas of the orcs (of different authors or literary sources) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cpettijohn93 (talk • contribs) 17:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Orkish=Orkhun=Old Turks

Tolkien describes Orcs explicitly in one of his Letters: 

   they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes;
in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.

At first glance this looks blatantly racist, but the qualifier "to Europeans" casts it in a very different light: Tolkien explicitly recognized that different cultures have different standards of beauty, and that his impressions did not reflect any underlying superiority. Moreover, he made it clear that the Orcs were not in any sense actual "Mongol-types", but "degraded and repulsive versions" of humanoid stock. (Nevertheless, his comment certainly falls short of modern standards of sensitivity.) Fellow Tolkienist Michael Martinez argues in Parma Endorion, his free E-book guide to Middle-earth, that Tolkien 

   needed a human model which, when distorted beyond realistic appearance, might appear monstrous
and corrupted. In fact, many Asian cultures represent demons and evil gods in a similar fashion.
I feel Tolkien's choice was inspired by a broad understanding of mythology, and not by racism.

Martinez also opines that Tolkien may have based the Orcs on the Huns, in the sense of their "historical context" within Middle-earth as enemy hordes and pillagers.[13] This should not be surprising since he based his writings on a Western viewpoint and the Mongol Empire did reach Europe.'

i copy-pasted the text above from physical appearance part of tolkien's middle earth.

the "Mongols-types" as written in Tolkien's letter are probably proto-Turks, because they were at the western wing of Mongol empire's army. and tolkien wanted to say, Orcs were probably early Huns or later reached Turks with the mongol empire. i think its not so hard to find. and i think the main body of Orkish language is interestingly looks like old turkic language, hunnic(hungarian-old hungarian script) and finnic. please look at the Old Turkic script article if you want to begin searching.--Orkh (talk) 18:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

What you are doing now is original research which has no place in Wikipedia. You need to find reliable sources to back up any claims that Tolkien used Old Turkic language for his Orcish language.--Fogeltje (talk) 19:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
As I said on Talk:Orc (Middle-earth): the Orcs (Orks) look like European stereotypes of (i.e. demonized) Mongols/Huns (being archetypal raiders/pillagers, etc. in the European psyche) but are even uglier than stereotypical Mongols/Huns according to European standards. (Trivia: the Wild Men are described somewhat similarly to Orcs and are on the side of good) Possible "true representatives" of Mongols/Huns are the Easterling humans, but that's OR. As for the word "Orc", the author said it's Old English for "demon". What little we know of Orkish (as there is very little of it) points to Hittite/Hurrian influence, and someone has already said this [4] Uthanc (talk) 14:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Orcs from Knight Online Added

I gave a breif description of the orcs from this game. The story about how they come to be is probably different from most games. I didn't go too in-depth, but the story says the orcs use to be human. Therefore in the game there are male and female orcs. This differs from most stories where orcs are asexual and usually only have male characteristics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kutulus (talk • contribs) 13:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

modern day usage

'WE' (Celtic Supporters)in Scotland, often refer to Orc's when describing 'so called' fans of Rangers Football Club. As recently observed rioting in Manchester at the UEFA Cup Final. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.206.127.242 (talk) 13:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Gender/sexuality of orcs

It might be worthwhile to mention the biology of diferent orc variants, as it's rather interesting. From Tolkien we don't know much only that they 'multiply rapidly in the mountains'; however, seeing as they are either corrupted elves or a mockery of elves and humans, they should have two sexes and generally breed like other mammals. Obviously, the same applies to orcs from universes like Shadowrun or Earthdawn, as they are essentially a near-human race; probably the same can be told about orcs from Warcraft. Games Worcshop orcs however are different: both fantasy and WH40K orcs are genderless (though they seem to have male body types, voices etc.), and they multiply asexually by spreading spores. GW orcs also have the majority of their survival skills programmed into their DNA, so a group of orcs who grew up from spores without any kind of adult supervision are fully capable of taking care of themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solarius Scorch (talk • contribs) 13:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not too sure about other versions but Warcraft Orcs certinally seem to breed like other mammals, humans particularly. 'Lord of the Clans' (the book on Thrall's origins) tells us that there are two sexes - male and female, that they give birth to live young (presumably just one is normal as Thrall was an only child and no one seemed at all suprised by this) and are initially breastfed by the female. D&D orcs (according to the 3rd Edition Monster Manual) can be either male or female. Nothing specific is said about mating but the fact that they can cross-breed with humans and occasionally other humanoid races implies that their system can't be all that different from our own.

On the one hand I agree that it would be worth adding this information to the article because it could be of interest and would certinally be relevant, on the other hand if almost all of them breed like humans there's probably no need to go into too much detail (if anyone doesn't already know how it works this is not the place to tell them) so it'd probably be better to simply add a note somewhere that most reproduce like humans and then explain any notable differences, like the GW orcs. 86.130.79.151 (talk) 23:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Oblivion

There are orcs in oblivion. Im suprised no one has mentioned it. They fit the description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.123.149 (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Real life orks

Gipsy are often called orcs in eastern Europe because of their primitiveness and love of violence, as well as lack of bodily hygienics. They no longer call them "lawn-negro" or "COMECON-redskins" because Obama's example showed blacks can actually become something worthy, while the gipsy are hopelessly neanderthals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.102.137 (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Don Quixote

"which is a pastiche and parody of fantastical Spanish romances like Don Quixote" This implies to me that Don Quixote is a "fantastical Spanish romance" rather than another example of a "parody...". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.161.160 (talk) 11:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


Discworld

I made a few amendments to the Discworld section, I believe it was added quickly as soon as the author had read the book. I have attempted to objectify and clarify, however I do not tend to edit articles, so my modifications may require additional work. Due to the nature of the reference material it the case that excessive mention must be made of a single specimen. I have attempted to mitigate the excessive generalisation that this brought (although I rather think the generalisation was the point of the book it is not proven within the pages). The book also, I believe, attempts to draw the reader's attention to the fact that in traditional fantasy we never see the enemy footsoldier's motivations, and are given the concept of mere brutishness and evil by means of the prevailing knowledge and fear of the word 'orc' amongst the common citizens. I have made a small reference to this. Oh, and I removed the concept of gaining high IQs, as that is clearly nonsensical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.233.128 (talk) 21:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Lingustic Origin in Tolkien's Languages

I believe the order of "uruk" and "urko" is backwards in the article. To my understanding, Morgoth developed the Orcs as well as the black speech. And it is stated throughout Tolkien's works that Morgoth could not create, but only corrupt and mock the creations of others. Thus "uruk" is a corruption of the Quenya "urko". I don't want to change the order at the moment, since I'm a little too lazy to confirm it and provide the necessary citations myself. Also I could be remembering incorrectly. Any thoughts? Contra181 (talk) 04:17, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

An sketch of an Orc riding a hawkstrider.

This hardly seems serious. Should it be removed? --85.81.86.44 (talk) 17:21, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

This sketch won an honorable mention in Blizzard's recent user art contest. Warcraft is fantasy, try not to take it too literally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopherfisherington (talk • contribs) 17:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
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