Talk:Old Jaffa

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Requested move 7 September 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per request Favonian (talk) 08:39, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Old City (Jaffa) → Old Jaffa – Name change is hereby suggested for the following two reasons: [1] Per WP:COMMONNAME. [2] Even if someone holds both name options near equal, the commonly used name that does not need disambiguation should be preferred. gidonb (talk) 06:24, 7 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:28, 15 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 20:57, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE The desire to discuss the name has also been mentioned in the failed AfD. gidonb (talk) 06:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: the current title is really strange. As someone from Israel, I've never heard the place refereed to as such. It might be refereed as that when you are already in newer parts of Jaffa, so you say something like "Lets go to the old city (area)", but other than that, I don't think it would be commonly used. "Old Jaffa" however, is used and is the name of the article for he.wiki (lit translation would be "Ancient Jaffa", but close enough). --Gonnym (talk) 07:35, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per the sources used in the article which support this name change. --Gonnym (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Never heard the name "Old Jaffa". Where's the proof it's the common name? Might be used in Israel, but I've always heard the common name in English-language sources as the Old City. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • The proof is presented in the sources available in the article. Most if not all use Old Jaffa. --Gonnym (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Two points.
      One: In this case there is no basic difference between Arabic, English, and Hebrew, not by location either. All use predominantly variations of Old/Ancient/Early Jaffa for the oldest neighborhood of Jaffa. In English it's mostly Old Jaffa.
      Two: You say that you have always "heard" Old City along with Jaffa. I believe you! The Old City is the walled ancient district of Jerusalem and one of its main gates (the widest of all!) is the Jaffa Gate. So yes, you will often hear Jaffa next to Old City, just as you claim. But when you hear so, usually it will be about a location in Jerusalem. The common English language name for the neighborhood of Jaffa is Old Jaffa. gidonb (talk) 10:44, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Old City" is generally used for the Old City of Jerusalem. Old Jaffa (Yafo ha'atika) is indeed the common usage for the old part of Jaffa.--Geewhiz (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support cursory Gbook search quickly showed strongly in favour of this move. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Old Jaffa, well used and far superior to “Old City” which requires the context of Jaffa. Noting there is a problem of overlap with Jaffa. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:18, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Boundaries[edit]

@Gidonb: Gidon, hi. How did you come to the conclusion that "the border passes on the east side of the "clock square", so the tower is just ***inside*** the old city"?

  • a) I don't think there is any definition written in stone.
  • b) Actually in stone there used to be a very clear one: the city wall, and the wall was west of the square and Raziel-Yefet streets, was it not? Do you have a pre-1870s map?
  • c) If Abuelafia is outside, then why is the Clock Tower inside?

If you give me good answers to all 3 questions, I'll go along with it, promise. If not, let's agree to go back to my version. Or use some term like "outskirts", "margin", "right outside/on the border". Cheers, Arminden (talk) 19:04, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Arminden::

  • A: Absolutely! Not set in stone. Glad you mention this. Boundaries will be dynamic over time. Walls get constructed, destroyed, moved, and expanded over time. Today's neighborhoods of cities are researched and dynamically defined by municipalities. Cities expand. Countries and states sometimes "correct" boundaries, i.e make changes as well.
  • B: The last wall is not set in stone either because most of it was torn down. When visiting Old Jaffa or through Streetmap be sure to explore a remnant between Mazal Arieh and Louis Pasteur. After the wall was torn down, buildings were constructed on the location of the last wall, extending to both sides. Boundaries usually do not split buildings. Many boundaries follow obstacles (e.g. a wall, a main arterial, a waterway, a mountain ridge) for good reasons. Today's obstacles are somewhat different than these of hundreds of years ago. For example, highways increasingly form the base for boundaries in present times. Other arterials are also important.
  • C1: Abuelafia is outside Old Jaffa because the boundary of Old Jaffa is in the middle of Yeffet. On the east-side (Abuelafia) is not Old Jaffa, the west-side is Old Jaffa.
  • C2: The Clock Tower is inside Old Jaffa because the boundary is in the middle of the northbound lanes of Herbert Samuel Raziel. I wasn't sure about this (did assume as much) so I looked it up in the authoritative GIS database to be 100% certain. The reason why the boundary is not through the middle of Herbert SamuelRaziel should be again: not to split a structure. gidonb (talk) 04:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gidonb!
Thank you for your great answers.
  • A) I'm quite well aware of it all.
  • B) It is the norm that a city wall, especially when doubled by a moat (I think Jaffa had a moat; maybe you can confirm?) usually is creating the outline of the "inner/old city" of expanding cities. I've lived in one and have visited dozens. Most city walls were torn down at about the same time, in Europe as in Jaffa - in the 2nd half of the 19th century. There might be exceptions, like with most everything, but this would be the first one I come across. It's easy to see why: houses build against the wall, difficulty of building over the torn wall or filled-in moat, pre-existing roads that follow the outline of the walls and leading to the former gates. Think faubourg. In the case you've mentioned: Mazal Arieh is I believe inside the wall, and Mazal Shor outside.
  • C) The Abouelafia argument follows my rationale pretty well. Sorry, I'm not good with street names: what do you mean by Herbert Samuel Street? On Google Maps the clock tower is on Raziel Street. Was it called Herbert Samuel in Mandate times? And what do you mean by "authoritative GIS database", what makes it authoritative? Is it based on a municipal decision? If that is indeed the case (is it?), then it's an administrative and counterintuititive matter, and anything counterintuititive should be clearly explained on Wikipedia, otherwise everybody would wonder, as I did, why the bakery is out and the tower in. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 05:21, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I mixed up two street names. Fixed. And, yes, I used the public GIS database of the Municipality Tel Aviv-Yafo. I can list the boundaries of Old Jaffa before the attractions. I did that with Ramat Aviv which is far more confusing. gidonb (talk) 05:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just did. gidonb (talk) 20:48, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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