Talk:Nykyfor Hryhoriv

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Sources[edit]

Could you please provide any sources used in this article? There is only one link to a questionable source, and it is dead.Biophys 00:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Nikifor Grigoriev[edit]

Nobody denies the fact what Nikifor Grigoriev was anti-Semite and Nestor Makhno was not. However, I am yet to see what any evidence saying what anti-Semitism of Grigoriev was a real reason why he was killed. Please provide a reference to support your claim. Fisenko 03:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I revised the text following Skirda's account. I append an alternate version below: Jacob Haller 04:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Makhno's anarchist republic had no anti-semitic ideology (many Jews were active anarchists, and several were Makhno's aides, notably Volin and Zadov). Grigoriev was arrested, for the pogroms he instigated among other crimes, court-martialed, and executed by Halyna Kuzmenko (Makhno's wife) on July 27, 1919.
OK. I have also seen a third account, but it needs to be verified.Galassi 18:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Matviy Hryhoriyiv[edit]

His Ukrainian name should appear, since he is referred to this way by important English-language sources. Examples include both Subtelny's and Magocsi's big histories of Ukraine. —Michael Z. 2007-07-26 03:41 Z

Didn't Makhno retreat into Grigoriev's area?[edit]

Although the Bolsheviks recovered the cities, several sources (e.g. Savchenko) have Grigoriev's troops continue to raid the rail lines around Aleksandriya and Znamenka. On the other hand, Makhno's troops lost Gulyai Pole to Shkuro's in June and were retreating west. 72.83.176.33 (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs additional citations[edit]

A previous suggestion/tag by myself that the article needs improvement in the area of citations and verifiability, was removed by one of the active editors of this page — thus not allowing others to comment/discuss this suggestion. I understand that some people end up having "ownership" of a page due to their investment of time and energy in editing the page. However, ownership is irrrelevant in the context of wikipedia - everyone should have an opportunity to suggest improvements, as wikipedia should be a collaborative effort that is "owned" by everyone.

Specifically, here are my suggestions for improving the article:

Structure and Lead section[edit]

As outlined in Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles the article needs a brief (and identifiable) lead section introducing the topic, plus the use of Headings. The use of headings helps define the important topics and points in the article as well as helping to create a thematic structure.

As outlined in Wikipedia:Lead_section I quote: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." Currently, as there is no structure, and no headings, it is not clear whether the first paragraph is a lead section, and if it is, then where this lead section finishes.

Avoid weasel terms[edit]

The article contains 'weasel-like' terms like "was known" and "noted for numerous switching of sides". As outlined in Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words: "Weasel words give the force of authority to a statement without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.

I don't doubt that Grigoriev switched sides — it is obvious from the following text, so there is no need for the weasel "noted" - just say that "...who often switched sides." Similarly, the term "was known" should either be not used (if it is self-evident — which it is not from the current article), or properly cited if it is presenting a fact — "known" by whom?

Words that label[edit]

The use of the terms "extreme" or "militant" when referring to anti-semitism without explaining why reflect unqualified opinion, or a statement that is not quantifiable (given that there are no direct citations). At its worst the use of a word like "extreme" is a pejorative term which is "inherently non-neutral, and so they should never be used as labels in the unqualified narrative voice of the article".

The wikipedia guide Words that label suggests that are at least three ways to deal with non-neutrality:

  1. attribute the term to reliable sources,
  2. replace the label with information, or
  3. use a more neutral term.

Sources[edit]

As the article currently stands, there are no direct inline citations for most of the text (except for the last section on his death). Therefore, a reader who is reading the article for the first time can only assume that these statements are based on the Russian-language references listed at the end — but this is not proper citation as outlined in Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources. For example, it would be much more informative (and interesting) to include a heading and information specifically on Grigoriev's anti-semitism, with cited information on numbers (or estimates) of jews killed during the pogroms etc.

I quote from Wikipedia:Cite_your_sources: "Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article."

OK, I understand that finding an English-language source may be difficult for this subject, but because there are no inline citations, it is not clear where a lot of the information in the article is from. In other words, just listing some 'references' at the end does not in any way help the English-speaking reader have any confidence in the verifiablility of the information. It would be better to use inline citations, or footnotes with translated quotations from your sources.

To conclude, I emphasize that I am not challenging directly any of the article's statements, but that the style of the current article does not fit wikipedia's standards for a good article. --Pkravchenko (talk) 04:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did he use the Russian or Ukrainian pronunciation of his name?[edit]

If he used the Ukrainian pronunciation, the hard G seems an inappropriate transcription. 108.48.94.155 (talk) 00:22, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Requested move 11 September 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: move to Nykyfor Hryhoriv. - UtherSRG (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nikifor Grigoriev → Nykyfor Hryhoriv – Move requested by @UnknownVolin, who stated their reasoning below. Grnrchst (talk) 08:38, 8 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 08:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The spelling of Grigoriev's name in this article (and others) is inconsistent. I suggest we clean this up by agreeing on a proper transliteration.

Nikifor Grigoriev is a Russian transliteration of Никифор Григорьев. This is the spelling commonly found in English texts about him. The technically correct Russian transliteration (using the Library of Congress system) would be Nikifor Grigor'ev, but I've never seen this version used.

The transliteration Nykyfor Hrihoriev, used in this article, appears to be a mix of Russian and Ukrainian transliteration rules. Russian И = English i; Ukrainian И = English y. The Ukrainian spelling of his name is Никифор Григор'єв. Using Library of Congress Ukrainian transliteration rules this would be Nykyfor Hryhor'iev. Simplified variants also exist such as Hryhoriv Hryhor'iv and Hryhoriev

I propose using a simplified variant, either Hryhoriev or Hryhoriv. These avoid the inclusion of soft signs (ь/')). My personal preference is for Hryhoriev. The current tendency in academia is to use Ukrainian spellings for ethnic Ukrainians. Hryhoriev was ethnically Ukrainian and involved in the Ukrainian national movement at various times. So I think it makes most sense to use a Ukrainian variant. UnknownVolin (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grigoriev's 1919 "Universal" can be downloaded from the YIVO Institute of Jewish Research. The Ukrainian spelling he uses is actually Григор'ів, meaning the most historically accurate transliteration would be Hryhor'iv. This variant is used by Palij and the simplified variant Hryhoriv is used by the Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine. I understand this may violate WP:NOR, but given the wide range of variants in use I thought it best to definitively check for accuracy. Therefore, I change my original preference and propose we use the simplified transliteration Hryhoriv. UnknownVolin (talk) 11:30, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per well-researched nomination. Since Hryhoriev was an ethnic Ukrainian (born in the city of Dunaivtsi, now part of Ukraine), his name should be transliterated into English using a Ukrainian transliteration form, not a Russian one. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 12:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support  Both variants Hryhoriev and Hryhoriv correspond to to the Ukrainian National romanization which is used in Wikipedia per WP:UKR, and also to a simplified version of the ALA-LC romanization which is widely used in academic and popular-academic literature. Here’s how the other standard histories name him on first mention (some are not the latest edition):
    • Encyclopedia of Ukraine:[1] “Hryhoriv, Nykyfor (Matvii) (Hryhoriiv) [Hryhorijiv or Hryhor'jiv, Matvij]”
    • Orest Subtelny (1988), Ukraine: A History, 360: “Matvii Hryhoriiv (Grigoriev)”
    • Paul Robert Magocsi (1996), A History of Ukraine: The Land and its Peoples, 497: “Otaman Matvii Hryhoriïv”; index: “Hryhoriïv, Matvii / Nykyfor”
    • Anna Reid (1997), Borderland: a journey through the history of Ukraine, 98: “Matviy Hryhoryev”
    • Serhy Yekelchyk (2007), Ukraine: Birth of a Modern Nation, 80: “otaman Matvii Hryhoriev”
    • Zenon Kohut et al. (2013), Historical Dictionary of Ukraine, 224: “Hryhoriiv, Nykyfor (Matvii)”
    Any of the proposals above is an acceptable improvement, but based on this brief survey my preference would be moving the article to Matvii Hryhoriiv (corresponding to a romanization of Матвій Григоріїв). —Michael Z. 17:12, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment: I was curious as to how commonly used Matvii is as his first name, as most of my own sources use the name "Nikifor":
    • Stephen Velychenko (2011) State building in Revolutionary Ukraine, p. 9: "Nykyfor Hryhoriiv"
    • Marko Bojcun (2021) The Workers’ Movement and the National Question in Ukraine, p. 336: "Nikifor Hryhoriev"
    • Nokhem Shtif (2019) The Pogroms in Ukraine, 1918–19, p. 1: "Nikifor Grigoriev"
    • Victor Peters (1970) Nestor Makhno, pp. 68-69: "Nikifor Grigoriev (Ukrainian: Hryhoryiv)"
    • Colin Darch (2020) Nestor Makhno and Rural Anarchism in Ukraine, 1917–21, p. 223: "Grigor’ev, Nikifor (Ukrainian: Hryhoriyiv, Nykolai)"
    Only one of my sources uses "Matvii":
    • Taras Hunczak (1977) The Ukraine, 1917-1921, p. 87: "Matvii Hryhoriiv"
    Indeed, in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Matvii is given in brackets where Nykyfor is in bold and used in the article's title.
    I looked up various permutations of the name for results on Google Books and here were the most common:
    For <10 results:
    I have never encountered a case of this many different transliterations and permutations for one person's name. I honestly don't know what I think is the best option for this. Grnrchst (talk) 11:03, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As mentioned, he uses Григор'ів in his Universal from 1919. So the most historically accurate transliteration is Hryhoriv or Hryhor'iv. He was born Nychypir Servetnyk and later adopted the name Nykyfor Hryhor'iv. I don't know where Matvii comes from. UnknownVolin (talk) 01:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Michael Z. Маtvii was a secondary (nick)name not used officially by Hryhoriv. I don't know its origins. In the document, I linked to from 1919, the Ukrainian name he used himself is Никифор Григор'ів. So this is the historically correct name. Using simplified LC transliteration, it is Nykyfor Hryhoriv. In the same link, there is a document from the Makhnovists announcing they killed him. They give his first name as Nikifor (Russian variant of Nykyfor). It would be very strange to use Hryhoriv's nickname Matvii as the article title if the documents themselves and most historians use Nykyfor (Nikifor).
    Most of the variations being brought up have to do with various transliteration systems being used by different authors over the decades. None of this is relevant if we agree to apply the modern simplifed LC system. UnknownVolin (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Григор'ів looks like an archaic or non-standard spelling to me. I don’t think і ever follows an apostrophe in modern orthographies. I suspect either or both of Григорїв and Григоріїв are modern adaptations of the same name. Anyway, I think that’s academic, and we should concentrate on the most common name in English texts, which is hard enough to determine. As I said above, I don’t feel that strongly which we choose since there are so many and my survey of sources was small  —Michael Z. 04:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes it's a non-standard spelling from the time. If you read academic Ukrainian texts about him today, it is spelled Никифор Григор'єв. The Ukrainian wiki uses this variant. So using modern Ukrainian spelling it is Nykyfor Hryhoriev, and according to his own spelling from the time it is Hryhoriv (also used by academics). The most common English spelling is Nikifor Grigoriev. Which is a Russified spelling. UnknownVolin (talk) 05:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Without prejudice regarding the nomination, I am amending my above "support" vote so that my primary support choice would be Nikifor Grigoriev → Matvii Hryhoriiv per the additional research submitted by Michael Z. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Why would you propose Matvii as the first name, when historically he was known as Nykyfor and even signed his name as such in 1919? This is being made far more complex than it needs to be. He was an ethnic Ukrainian. He used the name Nykyfor Hryhor'iv in documents from the time; some modern historians use this Ukrainian transliteration; the Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine (an academic site) cites his name as "Nykyfor Hryhoriv". They note in brackets he also used Matvii but this is clearly a secondary not primary name. Also both the Ukrainian and Russian wikis use the first name Nykyfor/Nikifor. UnknownVolin (talk) 01:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure what s going on in this nomination, but it looks like it was established that the most common name of this guy is Nikifor Grigoriev (note that it does not conform to either WP:RUS or WP:UKR, so this is genuinely the name used by the English-language sources).--Ymblanter (talk) 07:37, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This is all explained in my original proposal. Grigoriev is a Russian variant transliteration of his name. It was used by English historians for a long time because they generally ignored Ukrainian spellings. Although some Ukrainian historians writing in English used the correct transliteration of Hryhor'iv as far back as the 70s. The current trend in academia is to de-russify the imposed Russian transliterations of ethnic Ukrainian names. As I've tried to make clear the name he himself used in documents was Никифор Григор'ів = Ukr. transliteration Nykyfor Hryhor'iv [simplifed Hryhoriv]. This is the only completely historically correct Ukrainian version. UnknownVolin (talk) 01:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've changed the requested move from Nykyfor Hryhoriev → Nykyfor Hryhoriv. This is based on the fact Hryhoriv used this version of his name himself in his Universal (linked above) and is a variant used by the Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine — an academic encyclopedia based out of the University of Toronto and University of Alberta and written by Ukrainian experts using the latest transliteration system. If we want to include Matvii, I recommend leaving it in the introductory paragraph.UnknownVolin (talk) 04:50, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further information pertaining to Hryhoriv's first and last name. This comes from Victor Savchenko, a Ukrainian historian. He is writing in Russian, hence the Russian transliterations: "History for some reason has not preserved his real names -- but Nikifor Aleksandrovich is the most likely. Historians and "eyewitnesses" often called him Nikolai Aleksandrovich or Matvei Aleksandrovich. The emigrant journalist Mikhail Doroshenko . . . believed that Grigor'ev's real surname was Servetnik. At the beginning of the 20th century, the family of the future ataman moved from Podolia to Kherson province, to the village of Grigor'ev. Young Nikifor Servetnik then changed his surname to the more euphonious Grigor'ev, the name of his village." V. Savchenko, Атаманы казачьего войска (Moscow, 2006), pp. 67-68.UnknownVolin (talk) 05:51, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Given the academic tendency towards using the Romanization of Ukrainian over the previously-dominant Romanization of Russian, using the former makes more sense, given this figure was Ukrainian, considered himself Ukrainian and displayed a Ukrainian nationalist ideology. I don't think continuing to use the Russian transliteration would be the best course of action, especially considering that the Encyclopedia of Ukraine itself uses the transliteration "Nykyfor Hryhoriv". --Grnrchst (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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