Talk:Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans

Requested move 1 September 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus (or, better formulated as "consensus of meh"); I'll de-italicize the title. No such user (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans → Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans – Standard title case. Srnec (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). — Amakuru (talk) 23:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. A quick Google books search does not support the assertion that this is a proper name. It is more likely to be a descriptive title. In running text the word "khans" is lower case more often than no, so per WP:NCCAPS it should be sentence case. — Amakuru (talk) 23:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If it isn't a proper name, then the title should not be in italics. But I think it is a proper (albeit merely conventional) title. It is in title case, no italics here; italics and title case here; likewise here. I don't particularly care much, but if we are to keep the current case then we should de-italicize it. Srnec (talk) 00:44, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 30 November 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 00:00, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans → Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans – This is clearly the English title of a work and per MOS:CAPS §22 should follow title case as defined in MOS:5. That other publications may not have the same standard is irrelevant. That this is not merely a descriptive title is clear from the use of the very uncommon word "nominalia". Srnec (talk) 03:11, 30 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. echidnaLives - talk - edits 11:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:10, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Relisting due to no participation echidnaLives - talk - edits 11:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NCMANUSCRIPT Manuscripts are physical objects, not "works". They have names not titles, and these are therefore not italicized. In some cases the manuscript may contain the only original text of a work. The distinction between eg Beowulf the poem and the Nowell Codex which contains the only manuscript source should be maintained. Therefore, §22 is not applicable. This does not have a book cover, therefore has no title, and "nominalia" is just a (strange) translation of Bulgarian именник 'directory' (see wikt:именик). No such user (talk) 11:35, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't about a manuscript, but a text, as the first line states. In fact, it is found in three manuscripts. See here. Historically, many works do not have titles in manuscript and are known by conventional titles assigned by scholars. Srnec (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How we (and the sources) categorize this is unclear at best, and can be evidenced by the GBooks analysis by Amakuru, above. What has changed since then? When in doubt, we avoid unnecessary capitalization. No such user (talk) 10:33, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is necessary capitalization. Can you cite a source that uses lower-case 'nominalia'? That some sources use sentence case for English-language titles does not matter. Wikipedian style is to use title case. Srnec (talk) 03:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ per my rationale last time. Not consistently capitalised in sources. Nothing has changed. — Amakuru (talk) 07:43, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right after the guideline says only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia, it adds that There are exceptions for specific cases discussed below. I cited one of these exceptions, §22 "Titles of works". There is no exception that I can find to this example. "Khans" should be upper case if this is a title of a work. And it is. Srnec (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, I guess it's just about convincing enough. There are alternative titles for this, including List of Names of the Bulgar Khans etc. but this seems the most common and the sources below are good evidence, so let's treat it as a title after all. Support. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 13:04, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence that the current title (or variant translations) is a title, just from Google Books:
[1] capitalized Khans and in italics

[2] capitalized Khans and in italics

[3] capitalized Khans and in italics

[4] capitalized Khans and in italics

[5] capitalized Nominalia in running text

[6] italicized in running text

[7] italicized

[8] capitalized and in quotation marks

[9] reads Nominalia (List) of the Bulgarian Rulers

[10] capitalized Khans and in italics

[11] the first hit I came across to use name list of the Bulgarian khans as a descriptor

[12] capitalized and in quotation marks

[13] reads Immennik (Name List) of the Bulgarian khans

[14] capitalized

[15] capitalized and in quotation marks

[16] capitalized and in italics

[17] capitalized and in quotation marks

[18] reads "Name List" of the Bulgar khans

In any case, I have amended the article to at least display Nominalia in italics, since in no case can that word be used as a descriptor in English. Srnec (talk) 03:52, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Srnec's nomination and responses. — Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Bulgaria has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

relisting comment notified relevant wikiproject in the hope for wider participation. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:10, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.