Talk:Nina Dobrev

Can we stop pretending that mentioning the fact that she's a Bulgarian Canadian is a big issue?

Don't know why this is such an issue. She's proud to be Bulgarian, which is not only her ethnicity but also her NATIONALITY she's DUAL NATIONAL, so why erase that part of her wiki article? it's not either or, and wiki is about sharing information. Quenreerer (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Because WP:BLPLEAD is clear on the issue, and the consensus at the article is that there's no reason to deviate from it here. You also claim that it's her "nationality" but offer no proof that she still maintains Bulgarian citizenship. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:27, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Bulgaria allows dual citizenships. As you can see here . She is a Bulgarian citizen by birth and has not renounced her citizenship. She even stated she resides for a time in the country every year. She's a dual national. Consensus was made on faulty information, therefore needs to be updated. Quenreerer (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

You're wrong, regardless, as this is not how this is handled as per WP:BLPLEAD, and you have failed to prove any of this as per WP:BURDEN, and the consensus is against you, but I'm not going to keep "re-litigating" this, so I'm going to leave it to other editors to pick this up. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:38, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

"You're wrong" - yeah... great burden of proof, dude. I just provided a link where you can find Bulgarian citizenship laws, where it states a Bulgarian national is someone of Bulgarian ethnicity, born in Bulgaria. She checks both those requirement. Another thing you can learn is that Bulgaria allows dual citizenship. Meaning She didn't have to give up her Bulgarian citizenship to become a Canadian citizen. Furthermore there is no proof that she ever renounced her citizenship. At this point the burden of proof is on you to prove she's NOT a Bulgarian citizen. Quenreerer (talk) 03:04, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

shes born in bulgaria ... her parents both have the passport... should i ask you to prove your USA passport Fastcar4924539 (talk) 18:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

References

It doesn't matter if she has citizenship or not with Bulgaria. MOS:ETHNICITY says to not put places of birth in lead if it's not Kay girl 97 (talk) 19:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. And all her notable works were as a Canadian, so the Bulgarian is irrelevant. Which is the long-standing consensus at this article. Note to Kay girl 97 – We've had long-standing Disruptive editing, also possibly involving Socking, at this article on this very issue, so we may need Admin support on this eventually... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:56, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Learn the difference between citizenship and ethnicity first. Nina Dobrev isn't only a Bulgarian by ethnicity, she's a citizen of Bulgaria.MOS:ETHNICITY doesn't cover citizenship, therefore can't be used as an excuse to erase her Bulgarian citizenship from lead. Quenreerer (talk) 01:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

dual nationalities are allowed. there os no rule that froces only one nationality to be written in only in the lead. example. [[1]]. Quenreerer (talk) 01:39, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

This is quite pointless, as it's clear you are taking up the same WP:POV-pushing as the previous editor, but we've explained this to you multiple times – Dobrev is NOT NOTABLE AS A BULGARIAN. She has done no notable works as such. All of her notable works are as a Canadian (or in the U.S.). This is all directly from WP:ETHNICITY, as per above. If you keep this, and continue to ignore the clear consensus that has been established on this Talk page over years, I will report you for edit-warring, and you are very likely to be blocked. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:21, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Nina Dobrev [is a big deal in bulgaria and visits country each year.] again. you're wrong and again you're the one pushing NPOV. There's no source on the internet stating she isn't a big deal in her home country. Report yourself for incompetence while you're at it. Quenreerer (talk) 04:01, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

No one ever said she isn't a big deal in Bulgaria. That has literally nothing to do with anything. The Wikipedia guideline is clear, she achieved notability as a Canadian, not as a Bulgarian. SQGibbon (talk) 18:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Not to mention, Dobrev's family moved to Canada to escape Communist Bulgaria and became citizens of Canada shortly after. They basically severed their Bulgarian nationalities for a while. And as mentioned above, even if she still has it or regained said nationality, she gained her notability in Canada first and was always presented as such.Kay girl 97 (talk) 03:48, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

that's you opinion. Dobrev never publicly rescinded her Bulgarian citizenship. And given Bulgarian citizenship law, as you can see in the link i posted above, the burden of proof is on proving Bodbrev not being a Bulgarian citizen, not that she is. As WP:ETHNICITY, it doesn't apply here, since that is referring to a persons ethnicity, example, we don't specify someone being a hispanic america or african america in the lead, we just write american. Same applies here, only there is an issue of dual citizenship, which apparently is not a problem on any other article, besides this as I gave the example off Sienna Miller being both British and American. Quenreerer (talk) 03:57, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Citizenship in infobox

@IJBall: @Meters: Why can both Bulgarian and Canadian not be listed in the citizenship parameter in the infobox? There is no source stating that her Bulgarian citizenship has been rescinded. Past discussions have been in regards to referring to her as "Bulgarian-Canadian" in the lead, which is not the edit I made. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 20:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Discussions on whether to call her Bulgarian have been going on on this page for seven years Many of the editors supporting Bulgarian were eventually blocked as socks, and you are attempting tho make the same argument as they did. Are you the same editor?

This was a controversial unsourced edit that probably should not have been made without discussion, and certainly should not have been restored. If a new consensus is reached to add it to the infobox I'm fine with that, but we actually need a reliable source. The old argument that it should be included simply because she was born there and Bulgaria allows dual nationality doesn't convince me. She was all of two-years-old when she move to Canada. Meters (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to add that she's a Bulgarian citizen it's up to you to provide reliable source to support the claim. Meters (talk) 21:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Meters: Do you remember who the original sockmaster was here? – It would be useful in the case of this article if the original WP:SPI case could be referenced. Thanks... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't know. Some of them date back to 2013. Note that the now-blocked user: Quenreerer was making the same argument on this page and was blocked for edit warring on this article just a few months ago, and was eventually indefed without any mention of possible socking. Meters (talk) 22:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

It looks like the relevant WP:SPI case is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sumatro. It's worth noting that User:Targatron was the last named account taken to that SPI case, and immediately stopped posting when that happened and hasn't posted since. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I have to apologize. I see that I posted to that SPI and it's listed in my aide-memoire of sock cases User:Meters/SPIs . I was going to check when I got back but you beat me to it. Meters (talk) 23:14, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Meters: No, I'm not the same editor. For the fourth time, it's not even the same edit. Previous discussions have been about whether to call her Bulgarian in the lead. The argument against this is that she became known as an actress in Canada. Fine. However, the "citizenship" infobox parameter is meant to list all of the person's citizenships. Dobrev was born in Bulgaria to Bulgarian parents – she was born with Bulgarian citizenship. She later became a Canadian citizen, but no one can provide a source to state that her Bulgarian citizenship was rescinded. Ergo, it stands that she is a dual citizen, and the citizenship parameter should state as such. If you want to claim that she is no longer a Bulgarian citizen, the onus is on you to provide a source. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 23:24, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

This is the identical enlargement again, and the response is the same.as before. You need to provide a reliable source to show that she is a Bulgarian citizen. We do not need to prove that she isn't. You are simply making an assumption. Meters (talk) 23:30, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Meters: It's not identical given that the previous argument was around the usage of the lead while this is an infobox parameter. You can't claim her citizenship was rescinded without a source. The article currently appears as if she was never a Bulgarian national; do you think she was stateless for the first two years of her life? Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 23:39, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me.

Info box vs lead paragraph... it's exactly the same issue. You want ot assume that she is a Bulgarian citizen. We have asked for verifiable proof. If you don't have anything new, then we'll just wait for other editors to comment. Meters (talk) 23:48, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed – it stays out until it is explicitly sourced to something Dobrev herself says. And I also agree with Meters that we've already been over this, and there is no point in rehashing the same old arguments again. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:52, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Meters: In a podcast interview from 2019 she states that if she were to become American, she would have to give up one of her other two passports. Presumably, those would be a Canadian and a Bulgarian passport, so could this be considered an acceptable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coconutyou3 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Coconutyou3: She only says she has two passports. She doesn't say that one of those passports is Bulgarian so this source isn't enough. See WP:OR. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 14:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

She does mention Bulgaria after but I would guess it's not direct enough. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Citizenship and nationality

@Kay girl 97: nationality does not need to be included in Dobrev's infobox. If anything, Wikipedia has given the following as an example of nationality: "An example of nationality is Italian to a person with Italian roots born in the United States". Additionally, I don’t quite understand what you mean by "she only identifies herself as Canadian and is only loyal to Canada. People who don't know her well would think she's loyal to both Canada and Bulgaria". I have followed Dobrev for years, and she has mentioned, and continues to mention, that she is Bulgarian in practically every interview of hers (including in 2021, multiple times). Even her boyfriend Shaun White has referred to her as Bulgarian, rather than Canadian. If you can not provide a source where she explicitly claims to be "only loyal to Canada and not Bulgaria", then this shall remain.

Since we are already at it, the lead contains another misinterpretation, notably MOS:ETHNICITY, which states: "In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable". In Dobrev's case, she has been a Bulgarian citizen since birth, therefore, she was a Bulgarian-Canadian at the time when she first became notable; the rules have been created for citizenships obtained post-factum, e.g. Angelina Jolie's Cambodian citizenship, Sandra Bullock's German citizenship and many more. Just to be on the safe side, I will also explain the following sentence: "Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability", which refers to cases where the person has renounced their previous citizenship (e.g. Tina Turner).

The fact that Dobrev is Bulgarian-Canadian seems to have been a controversial topic here in the past as well. I don’t know what the reason for that is, and I do not want to speculate, but I do hope we can finally have a productive discussion and sort it out. --Coconutyou3 (talk) 05:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If she's still a Bulgarian citizen that's fine. The point is that she's gained her notability as a Canadian as that's where she started her acting career. She became notable in Canada long before Bulgaria or the rest of the world.

People that have discussed this in the past agree that she's only notable as a Canadian. If you disagree go to the past threads and discuss it with them. Kay girl 97 (talk) 13:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Fully agree with Kay girl 97 – I'm going to remove it as per WP:STATUSQUO. Her Bulgarian citizenship is effectively incidental and trivial. Further, I have strong suspicions this is this another sockpuppet of User:Sumatro, who has been making similar kinds of Disruptive- and Battleground-type edits to this same article for years. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If there's a reliable source for her citizenship, then I think we can keep it, but we should also include the "nationality" parameter so people know she's primarily a Canadian, but I don't know Kay girl 97 (talk) 13:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

This earlier edit is the source – I haven't checked it, but it includes a timestamp, so if Dobrev says it herself, it meets WP:V and WP:ABOUTSELF... On the other issue, as long as the lede continues to say "Canadian actress", I'm ambivalent anout whether 'nationality' is also needed in the infobox (IB). We don't list 'nationality' in the IB for the similar case of Breanna Yde – I'm not sure it's strictly necessary here, as long as the lede continues to say "Canadian actress" and nothing else. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:56, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

The issue at hand here is the description in the lead; the information about her citizenship has already been adequately sourced and is not contestable. MOS:ETHNICITY is about including the citizenship that the person had when they became notable, which (as I explained in my previous comment) was both Bulgarian and Canadian in Dobrev's case. It is not about the "citizenship that they became notable for", as such concept does not exist, and the rules have been made for cases such as Angelina Jolie's, for example. As a matter of fact, Dobrev made her screen debut at age 17, which means she was not even a naturalized citizen of Canada at the time. --Coconutyou3 (talk) 17:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

How do you know she wasn't a citizen at 17? A lot of kids become naturalized citizens long before they turn 18. Kay girl 97 (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

She is, indeed, Canadian and disputing this is not at all what I am trying to do. The point I am trying to make is that she gained her notability as a Bulgarian-Candadian and should be referred to as such, per the guidelines set by MOS:ETHNICITY. --Coconutyou3 (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kay girl 97: @IJBall: I've asked twice that you please discuss this matter. I'm going to go ahead and make the change I've described above. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at ANI for disruptive editing by reverting without discussing. --Coconutyou3 (talk) 07:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC).

Please do so Coconutyou3, so that you can be exposed as another sock of Sumatro. I pretty much dare you... But, before you do, you may want to see what Admin RoySmith said in the latest WP:SPI case before you do, because that is not likely to go the way you want it to. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:16, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Coconutyou3 You're going to report me? For what? Staying with the consensus? Go ahead. You're the one being disruptive. Kay girl 97 (talk) 03:52, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

• The singular point that matters in this discussion and what it all hinges on is whether reliable sources discuss her heritage or discuss the subject detailing her heritage and birth place. If so then it belongs, if not then it doesn't. Consensus can change and we shouldn't automatically dismiss something brought forward to discuss just because consensus swung one way years ago. It should not be given undue weight in the article and only state what is found in reliable sources but shouldn't be dismissed wholesale without being given an opportunity to be researched by the community. The information was boldly added and then reverted. It should not be included until discussions have been had and sourced information scrutinized to form consensus. --ARoseWolf 15:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

No, in fact, that's not the point – the issue is not whether her "heritage should be reported": that is already done in the article. The issue is what belongs in the lede. MOS:ETHNICITY and WP:BLPLEAD are clear – "Bulgarian-Canadian" does not belong in the lede, and is inappropriate to include. The consensus has never changed on this point. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:32, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

MOS:ETHNICITY is, indeed, clear on the subject, which is why I feel ridiculous for bringing this sentence up for the nth time, but it is inevitable (and the major point of our discussion): "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable." There is an extensive list of Wikipedia pages that have followed this policy, with most of the cases being similar to Dobrev's. Some examples of this are Lupita Nyong'o, Lana Condor, Mischa Barton, Phil Hartman, Antoni Porowski, Anna Paquin, Olga Kurylenko, Christiane Amanpour, Genevieve O'Reilly, etc., all of whom were dual citizens at the time when they gained notability (just like Dobrev) versus cases like Angelina Jolie, Sandra Bullock and Jim Carrey who all acquired their second citizenships post-factum. I would have agreed that her Bulgarian heritage would not be relevant to the lead section had she not been an actual citizen of the country (in addition to having been born in it as well). --Coconutyou3 (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2023

Nina has recently stated in an interview that her birth name is actually NICOLINA and she didn't find out until she was 18 yrs old. 2604:3D09:1773:7F00:CBF5:859:E22:498B (talk) 05:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 05:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Nationality?

@Thedarkknightli: definitely don't agree with how the latest editor went about it but I think they raise a good point, why is Dobrev's Bulgarian nationality omitted from the lede? It should be mentioned if we go by what MOS:NATIONALITY says and there's many other similar cases like Sebastian Stan and Pedro Pascal, off the top of my head. Anthony Whitaker (talk) 18:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Anthony Whitaker, I don't think "there's a discrepancy between what the MOS policy states and what seems to be the status quo". There's a consensus that being Bulgarian isn't that important to Dobrev's notability. Also, we've already mentioned her birthplace (Sofia) in the lead, which is sufficient imo. The current description is consistent with a lot of BLPs (Anna Paquin, Morena Baccarin, Katie Melua, etc).

Regards, Thedarkknightli (talk) 19:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)