Talk:National University of San Marcos/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Latest updates

I am being impartial on the updates on this article regarding of the university in which i study.

Among others.HappyApple 03:12, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • I tend to agree with HappyApple here. Most of the more comprehensive articles about colleges and universities list the faculties/departments. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that a list of faculties would be noteworthy. I am still not sure that a listing of departments is necessary, though, of course, it is perfectly harmless. In Peruvian usage, the word "facultad" is closer to "department" than to "faculty". Hasdrubal 18:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding "strongest", "finest", etc.; the current wording ("academically prominent") is fine and probably should stay. Of course, these are just relative terms.

Just to give outsiders an idea: in science x (where x will not be mentioned so as not to ruffle more feathers than are already ruffled), no university in Peru can be called a research centre; however,

(a) San Marcos, la Catolica and la UNI all have some talented people who have published a couple of papers in recognized international journals; (b) they have one reasonable research library on the subject, in common, at least as far as books are concerned; obvious financial constraints limit them when it comes to journals; (c) they try to keep up links with researchers abroad, and to place their better BA's in graduate schools elsewhere (as there are no real graduate schools in the subject in Peru, and there couldn't be at the present).

The newer private universities make a fair amount of income "teaching" x to the cognitively impaired children of financially gifted parents, but are not really serious at all about research in the matter, and would probably not recognize it if it bit them.

In general, among the universities with a wide range of departments in the sciences, San Marcos, la Catolica and la UNI are each an earnest attempt at what people elsewhere would call a research university. As I said, there are financial constraints.

All of the above is very POV, of course - this is a talk page. No offense is meant to specialized institutions (e.g., la Agraria) for which x falls outside the natural radius of interest, or, least of all, to the three universities praised above. Hasdrubal 18:49, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The UNMSM is recognise as one of the best universities on Lima. Medicine and Law are two of its most prominents colleges (even though there is a extrange campaing to give the "San Martín" this category). I don't think that any peruvian (or at least the people on Lima) need a citation to known this. About Private Universities, well, Its relevant to the page, so no further disscussion is needed. Messhermit 20:15, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Totally agree with Messhermit, although those universities published some research belonging to natural sciences, its certainly wrong to consider La Catolica at the same academic level as San Marcos or UNI,for over four centuries San Marcos has been a symbol for excellency and tradition in all sense for many peruvians and to consider la Catolica may match San Marcos is an insult.HappyApple 14:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Dear Messhermit -

as you can tell from the above, I am in complete agreement. I don't think there is anybody here who doubts that San Marcos is one of the best three or four in Peru in just about any given specialty. Hasdrubal 21:54, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

... anybody, that is, except for that silly anonymous person who wrote the first remark. Hasdrubal 21:55, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Following changes:

  • Added Copyright sign to university name.
  • Added Motto to University table.

Copyright sign was added becase seal is already registered and its part of intellectual property of the university. Motto is different then Latin name, However in the beginning the latin name was the official motto, nowadays it's different. HappyApple 22:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The use of a copyright symbol is a claim on the part of a copyright holder that it holds a copyright on a given item. There is no reason or need for us, as non-copyright holders, to participate in this particular game. -- Viajero 23:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

2005 comments

saint mark??? I dont think the name should be translated. the most prestigious school in Lima, Peru? I highly doubt. (anon)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.48.156.141 (talk • contribs) 7 March 2005

This kind of comments are definitively biased against San Marcos and i believe this kind of conduct shall not be allowed on the forum.HappyApple 02:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Number of Faculty and Students

Those numbers are inaccurate.

I made changes according to:

http://www.unmsm.edu.pe/ogpl/publicaciones/catalogo.htm

But still the numbers are not up to date.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.121.157.40 (talk • contribs) 30 November 2005

The numbers has been revised according to the website you provided, which surely is from UNMSM, changed the number of faculties to 20, as it states on [[1]].HappyApple 02:15, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


The number of faculties is still wrong. Faculty in english refers to a professor, while in Spanish the word "Facultad" refers to a school of a given University, as in for example School of Biology. The word you want to look for is "Docentes" in the very same document [[2]]. There are two types: "contratados" (part time) and "nombrados" (full time). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FGVillamon (talk • contribs) 5 Dec 2005.

Actually, you are wrong about the English. While "department" is more common in English than "faculty", "faculty" is perfectly acceptable. "Faculty" can also mean the entire professoriat of the university; an individual professor is a "faculty member", and you could say he (or she) "is faculty" (using the word as an adjective) but not he (or she) "is a faculty". "A faculty" is always a collective noun.
On the other hand, if you are just giving two counts for a university—"students" and "faculty"—then "faculty" would refer to the number of professors (and other teachers). However, "faculties" would not. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Point taken. Yes, it is a collective noun, I completely missed it. I was going by the examples posted above of other entries about other universities (in relation to number of faculty and students). As to whether the term "facultad" is the Spanish equivalent to the English "department", I must disagree. Usually a University, say is organized in schools and the schools in departments, a Spanish "universidad" is organized in "facultades", "facultades" in "escuelas" and "escuelas" in "departamentos". Schools are comparable to facultades and departments to escuelas (organization wise). Departamentos are created to warrant an specialization but they don't grant academic degrees. ----—Preceding unsigned comment added by FGVillamon (talk • contribs) 7 December 2005

Arguments from User:Jmabel about Department and Faculty are correct, in fact according to wikipedia [[3]] a faculty is a division of a university, in North America it seems this meaning is more closer to Departments, the question whether translation from escuelas and departamentos to english doesnt apply in the university infobox hence the issue was if the numbers were correct, those numbers have been revised as of 2002, probably they havent changed too much. HappyApple 19:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

(A little off-topic but) I assume FGVillamon knows what he's talking about. So, would a facultad be more like a college or school (2 terms nearly interchangeable, just a matter of which university) within a U.S. university? (e.g. School of Law, School of Engineering, College of Letters?) -- Jmabel | Talk 22:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a facultad would be more like a school, and again, this is an organization wise (burocracy) comparison. I went to University of San Marcos for my B.S. and to University of Wisconsin-Madison for my M.S., while it does not make me an expert on the off-topic subject, it gives me more perspective. FGVillamon 04:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe you have a point, but to keep arguing about this is irrelevant for infobox.HappyApple 04:58, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


Logo or coat of arms?

I would like to open a discussion on whether to call the symbolic emblems "logos" or "coats of arms". I am on the opinion that the most proper name would be "coat of arms" as it fits better the translation for "escudo de armas", which is how it is called in Spanish. Correct me if I am wrong with the following. A logo is an identifying symbol while a coat of arms besides being an identifying symbol it is composed of elements carrying a meaning on their own. For example, the two columns with the "plux ultra" banner represent the "new world" according to the constitution acts. I am fine with "logos", I just want to know what other users think. FGVillamon 16:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

If it is considered an escudo de armas, then, yes, "coat of arms" would be correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Logos

The section on logos was rather excessive, and probably did not belong in the page to begin with. Is there any other article on a university of similar length (viz., short) to the present one with such an outsized section on this subject? Hasdrubal 18:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I changed the css infobox to Infobox University a couple of edits back, and it seems to have been reverted along with the logo controversy. Can we consider the two issues separately? Is there any problem with Infobox University, or can I change it back? The reasons I have for converting it are: the file is shorter and easier for everyone to edit, and Infobox University is becoming a standard for such boxes. Cpastern 18:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I am using the infobox used at National Taiwan University article, which it seems to include much more information than Infobox University. However, if you want to change it, i feel you have to talk discuss this on National Taiwan University discussion page whether it's infobox is appropiate or not.--HappyApple 20:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the National Taiwan University infobox to Infobox University already. . . And I think the more relevant question is what is best for this article and university articles as a whole. In my opinion, the purpose of the infobox is not to include as much information as possible, but rather to give a brief overview of a few major characteristics of a university, and I think that Infobox University does that. Details should really be within the content of the article, not in an infobox. Another benefit of Infobox University is how much cleaner the edit file is- compare: edit diffs. If you check "what links here" at Infobox University you will see many many other articles use that Infobox, so I don't think the fact that one other university uses the complicated html-heavy box is good evidence for keeping it here. Cpastern 08:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Cpastern. Articles are moving away from HTML in the articles because they are difficult to edit, harder to read and scare away potential editors. I will add the infobox back. --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 16:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Well i think Cpastern and Reflex Reaction 's rationale is correct (not need to change it again folks). By the way, aren't any other universities articles that are keeping older infoboxes ?HappyApple 22:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
We are both working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Colleges and Universities, sytematically consolidating country infoboxes and ensuring an adequate level of coverage - see also Template_talk:Infobox_University#Template_items_to_be_deleted --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 20:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

San Marcos/San Fernando

At the risk of further confusing everyone, I still maintain that although the Faculty of Medicine of San Fernando may have been chartered by Ferdinand VIII/Fernando VIII, who was no saint, it was named for Ferdinand III/Fernando III, who is still known as San Fernando. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.111.146.94 (talk • contribs) 12 May 2006

According to the university's official bulletin, the department of medicine was stablished in 1573 under the name of Real Colegio de Medicina (Royal college of medicine), but it wasn't a faculty at the time, its current status was institued in the late 18th century early 19th century, when it was promoted to Faculty level, renamed to Real Colegio de Medicina y Cirugía de San Fernando in honor to Ferdinand VII of Spain.HappyApple 00:55, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not uncommon to honor someone by naming something after the same saint after whom they were named. - Jmabel | Talk 05:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Why does this article title have "(English)" in it?

Why does this article title have "(English)" in it? The title is not in English, so that can't be the reason (and it wouldn't be a good reason anyway). Is it to tell the reader that the article is in English? But that's hardly necessary, since this is the English Wikipedia. It seems to me that the parenthetical part is completely unnecessary, and the title here is totally different from the way any other university article is titled. --Rbraunwa 23:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that any of the non-Peruvians here care. I believe that at one point, one of the Peruvians had made it "National University of Saint Mark", which is downright silly. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to move it to the Spanish name, but do clean up all of the incoming links if you do so. (In any case, it should be no big deal, as long as all the correct redirects are here.) - Jmabel | Talk 18:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The oldest university of América controversy

Well, I love the page, and I am living in New York for so long, preaching about that San Marcos is the oldest Univ. but having to deal with many, many people especially with the Dominicans, who claim the contrary, I have almost believed them. Well good arguments and facts now I have more "ammunition" to defend my position.
I am taking this opportunity to ask for your collaboration, with our entries and mostly with our "National Page", which I believe is locked or protected, and thus you have to get into the 'bureaucracy' to get in and finally edit it. I just came here so you may have a better chance for doing it so. Assuming that you are Peruvians, have time and want to do it in the first place. Like this page there are other many entries about our country Perú which needs our help, if we don't do it, who will then?
Many entries needs help, I am starting to work in several languages, but in here, in English, we are kind of messy, except for your page of course; for instance read how is written and what they are saying about our history in our own page. I think it needs more work, if we compare it with others pages then we know is true. Well see your contribs. You will start to see mine as well. thanks and Good Luck!! and sorry for use some of this space. Hope I didn't intrude. Last time if I did it so " arriba, arriba hasta las estrellas... en Wikipedia?". -JohnManuel 23:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


  • The Universidad Autónoma de Santo Domingo (Autonomous University of Santo Domingo) was founded in 1914, not in 1538. This university, in current Dominican Republic, expects to be a “primatial university of America” in spite of the fact that it holds, against every Latin American legislation of the time, a foundation illegally authorised by the Pope in 1538; it has been officially recognised by the monarchy just in 1747 like "Universidad de Santo Tomás de Aquino"; it has been prohibited by Royal Letter of 1758 the use of that false title insulting universities of Lima and Mexico. As if it were not enough, the Santo Tomás University was definitively extinguished in 1824, having no relationships with the current one (founded in 1914), because it is a new and different institution that seeks to recover for itself its colonial predecessor's history. The Universidad de San Marcos (San Marcos University) of Lima was also, and continue being, the oldest university in the world out of the European continent, founded on 12th May 1551, and for this reason it takes the deserved title of “dean of America” (the oldest, not necessarily the first), since it is the only university that survives, uninterruptedly, since the XVIth century. (Miguel Angel del Castillo M., 29-VIII-07)

oldest?

According to List of oldest universities in continuous operation, the Universidad Autonoma de Santo Domingo, founded in 1538, is the oldest university in the Americas. Perhaps UNSM is the oldest in South America? -- Viajero 11:21, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Oldest on the continental mainland"? See also Talk:National Autonomous University of Mexico. Don't know about the various "cont. operation" claims. –Hajor 14:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I cut the following "Being the oldest university today does not necessarily means it was the first to be founded." That doesn't make sense, unless you are implying that there was an older university that no longer exists (and if there is, we should say so explicitly). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:55, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

There was another university "National Autonomous University" founded just before San Marcos but was closed from 1867-1910, so San Marcos is the longest consecutive serving university, and THE oldest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.128.214.5 (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Name

The name in spanish is "Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos". Then, why "National University of San Marcos"? And Major? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.230.235.215 (talk • contribs) 27 March 2007.

Mayor should only rarely be translated as "major". Usually, it is "bigger" or "larger"; here, it would probably best be "greater", but I doubt it is ever used in English translation. The few uses in English on the university's web site refer to it as San Marcos National University. Or, of course, we could use the original Spanish. - Jmabel | Talk 18:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this article should not have been moved. And why no discussion first? I'm going to change this back. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 15:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Questions

  • What is the (unnamed) fifth faculty founded in Spanish times? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • When was "National" added to the name of the university? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Is there a citation not connected to the university itself for the university being the most prestigious in Peru? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • "Fray Thomas of Saint Martin" seems unlikely English. My guess is that this is an effort to translate the untranslatable, and should be "Fray Tomás de San Martín". -- Jmabel | Talk
    • "Fray" in Spanish is equivalent to the term "Brother" as used in English-speaking monasteries. Wikipedia suggests that "Fray" is equivalent to "Friar", but Spanish-English dictionaries differentiate between the terms. "Fraile" is Spanish for "Friar". -- Saska01
According to the Dictionary of the Royal Academy of Spanish Language, Fray is apocope of Fraile, so its translation to English should be Friar. What I seem to be unable to find out is whether Fray is actually used in English as a honorary title (in a similar way as Mr.) WP articles that mention Fray "X" have the same issue. Any ideas? At the moment I'm leaving Fray in the article. Asinthior (talk) 23:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Apparently, friars in English go by Friar "X". See for example Friar Tuck. In fact, there are some biographies of friars that include Friar in the title of the article (see for example Friar Gerundio of Campazas). So Fray should be changed to Friar in all cases. Asinthior (talk) 14:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Major National University of San Marcos

The name has been changed since the complete and correct name is "Major National University of San Marcos" (spanish: Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos), as references: see [4], also in official investigation paper (http://www.scielo.org.pe/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1609-74752008000100009&lng=pt&nrm=is) in the "abstract" you can read "Major National University of San Marcos".--Kanon6917 (talk) 16:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. As per the previous discussion (above), this is a horrible mistranslation. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
According to the Webster's dictionary 'major' means 'greater in importance or rank' and this meaning agrees totally with the original meaning in spanish. Besides, the name 'San Marcos' should be translated too. If this name would belong to a name of a place (e.g. the city where the university is located), no change is suitable or recommendable. However, 'San Marcos' is a proper name, and its straightforward (and suitable) translation would be 'Saint Marcus'. Therefore, the appropriate name in english would be "Major National University of Saint Marcus". Rilg ee (talk) 20:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
While I also agree that Major National University is a mistranslation, I think deleting a whole word of the name of an institution affects the meaning of the name. While Major does have the meaning referred to above, a better translation would be Head, meaning an institution that is prominent above all other similar institutions. Also, I would argue it would be good to change "national" to public, as in this case it means it's funded and administered by the state. In Peru colegio nacional and universidad nacional are public schools and public universities. A national university would mean it is the only university in the nation or the one that represents the whole nation.
I would argue that the reference provided above does not justify the use of the mistranslation. Researchers that speak English as a second language or that see themselves forced to publish their research results in English are known to mistranslate extensively. A better source (which I know may not exist) would be a publication that deals with translation, even if it refers to the translation of the name of another university with similar epithets from Spanish to English.
Just in case you got lost in all that above, I propose "San Marcos Public Head University", which conveys the idea that this university is considered prominent among all other universities of Peru and that it is administered and funded by the Peruvian state. Also, I would consider translating San Marcos to Saint Mark (see below).Asinthior (talk) 04:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
"Public Head" as opposed to "Private Head"? Carlosp420 (talk) 07:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. There is no Private Head, because there is no Universidad Privada Mayor de San Marcos. Asinthior (talk) 01:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
"... Saint Marcus" sounds ugly, why not "... Saint Mark"? Carlosp420 (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree. The best translation would be the name of the saint patron in English. According to the article in Spanish, the university was so named in honor of San Marcos el Evangelista (i.e. one of the four Gospels), therefore the name translated to English would be Saint Mark. Asinthior (talk) 04:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
  • English magazines, books & related use the name "University of San Marcos" or "National University of San Marcos", using the name after University of..., as in Britain English. "San Marcos Public Head University" sounds weird... sounds like an american institution (US).--Kanon6996 (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
We could briefly acknowledge alternative names in English in the first sentence of the article as it is often done in Wikipedia articles (also called...) As for the question of whether it sounds British or American, I have to admit I had never thought of it but I guess it is due to my learning American English as second language before learning British English (which I still don't pick up quite as well as American English). Nonetheless, there is no particular reason for the name of the university being translated into British English rather than American English. I wouldn't mind Public Head University of Saint Mark though I have to admit it sounds weird to me, but again: American English-British English. Maybe other contributors can add their opinions.Asinthior (talk) 13:37, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv (talk) 11:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Major National University of San Marcos → National University of San Marcos — "National University of San Marcos" is by far the more common and more idiomatic translation. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Support — If it is indeed a "mistranslation", or simply a mistake in some manner, then you could probably list is under Uncontroversial requests.
    — V = I * R (talk) 10:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Support The Spanish translation of Mayor National University is ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contactcarl (talk • contribs) 06:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
    The problem is that I did move it back, only for the person who originally moved it to do it again. So I thought it better to seek wider consensus. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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