Talk:Music of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 22:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by NegativeMP1 (talk). Self-nominated at 08:53, 7 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Music of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is well-referenced and appears to use good reliable sources for the topic. Both hooks seem okay, though I'd slightly prefer ALT1. Kafoxe (talk) 19:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have pulled this hook per comments at WT:DYK, here. Article will need a copyedit before being promoted and hooks also need work. Gatoclass (talk) 12:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @NegativeMP1:, this is the part of the text I have the biggest issue with:

Alexandra additionally praised more tracks in the game, describing two specific ones, "Collective Consciousness" and "The Hot Wind Blowing", to have similar themes to American soldiers and westward expansion throughout history. Noting both songs to use the word "blindly" to demonstrate their themes, "Collective Consciousness" was believed to focus more on the population, with "The Hot Wind Blowing" focusing on the relationship between the population and the soldiers, with the latter using what was described as a "buffalo image" to invoke similarities between the hunting and near extinction of buffalo and the historical image of "American carelessness".[10]: 32–33

Since I still have no real idea what this is supposed to mean exactly, and the source is offline, would you mind quoting the relevant part of the source for me so I can figure out a possible rephrase? Thanks - Gatoclass (talk) 11:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gatoclass: Fairly big section that is having to be quoted (possibly copyright violating but I don't think so) but here: "Perhaps the greatest condemnations of all are actually removed from ludic interactions or the more overt sections of the script. They are found in the lyrics to two songs: “Collective Consciousness” and “The Hot Wind Blowing”. “The Hot Wind Blowing” is Khamsin’s theme and focuses on the blind obedience of soldiers: * Note that Revengeance was released before the advent of Donald Trump’s nightmarish 2016 presidential bid. [... (lyrics here)...] The buffalo image evokes ideas of wanton destruction and desecration. During westward expansion, thousands of buffalo were killed for their meat and hunted to the point of near extinction. Today, they are a near threatened species but by the turn of the twentieth century, the recorded number of buffalo sat at around three hundred total. The lyrics combine this historical image of American carelessness with ideas of blind obedience. Revengeance goes to great lengths to talk about the complexities that draw people into war when it forces the player to listen to NPC character thoughts and motives during the Denver scenario. However, it also offers a prognostication where soldiers wait for orders, follow them without question, and only try to justify their actions after the fact. The song Collective Unconsciousness plays during the battle with Metal Gear EXCELSUS, focusing more on the general populous. [...lyrics here...] The song makes demands of the public. Obedience to the country entails giving up your mind and swearing allegiance. There’s no questioning anything. The word “blindly” is used again, as it was in “The Hot Wind Blowing”. The lyrics make an equivalency between soldiers and the public. The same thing is demanded of both: ignore the real cost of their happiness, justify the actions that granted it. The public’s solution is to engage in gross product consumption. Combined, the songs create a dark picture and call out the worst aspects of first world behavior." It's from pages 25-26. λ NegativeMP1 17:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gatoclass and NegativeMP1: I copyedited the article a bit, especially that part, let me know if you both think it's clear now. BuySomeApples (talk) 02:50, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BuySomeApples: that is much better, thanks! The article still needs a little more general copyediting though, which I can probably manage myself, and then I might have to take a look at the hooks again. But you have fixed the biggest issue, much appreciated :) Gatoclass (talk) 09:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have given the article a bit of a copyedit, although there are still numerous issues with the text - but not enough, I think, to prevent it being featured at DYK (though it should still probably be listed at GAR). However, there is still no viable hook. I have struck ALT1 as incomprehensible, while so far as I can see, ALT0 isn't supported by the article text. Pinging @NegativeMP1: and @BuySomeApples: for comment. Gatoclass (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT0 is supposed to be summarized by the "Implementation in-game" section. In fact, from what I can see, it does. I greatly appreciate your copyediting where you see fit, even if I disagree with the initial "incomprehensible" judgment, but "designed to be reactive to the players actions" is summarized by that entire section. Even by the first sentence, "The soundtrack is adaptive to gameplay, with lyrics being implemented in real-time according to what is happening in-game." λ NegativeMP1 02:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I resent the statement, as the person who reviewed this article at GAN, that the article needs a GAR, and encourage you next time to ping me or go to my talk if you have objections to my work. I will concede that, as someone who likes Metal Gear, likes Metal Gear Rising, and has played games for more than a decade, my knowledge and experience of gaming and the structure of games, and excitement for this nomination, prevented me from doing as good a job making this article as comprehensible to as many readers as I could have. But I will not concede that it is a mystery how it passed GAN. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 03:25, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Okay NegativeMP1, on a re-reading of the paragraph in question and the underlying sources, I concede that they confirm the music is "reactive to the player's actions" to some degree. But here's another issue: half of the paragraph is meaningless unless you read the underlying source for clarity. For instance, the following sentence: An example of this is the track "The Only Thing I Know For Real", the boss theme for Jetstream Sam, being arranged to "represent his inner thoughts being overtaken by concentration" in the words of NME.[5] It fails to mention the essential detail of how this effect is achieved, namely by fading out the vocal line at the height of the battle. The previous sentence, Platinum arranged and mixed Christopherson's work with the Wwise engine to "kick in at the height of the boss battles", and make them fit with the motivations of each character, is almost equally problematic. The sentence is essentially presenting three separate pieces of information that have no apparent relation to one another. How does the fact that the music "kicks in" at a certain point relate to the fact that it "fits with the motivations of each character"? There is no obvious link, thus the sentence only confuses. There are similar issues throughout the article. Gatoclass (talk) 03:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have done more some editing to the article to address the issues raised above. It could still use some work but is probably sufficiently coherent to be promoted now. There is still the problem of finding a viable hook though; ALT0 is not exactly wrong, but it's not very interesting and I can't help thinking there ought to be a better hook in there somewhere. I might try to propose one or two a little later, after which I will ask for a new reviewer as my work on the article to this point has disqualified me in that role. Gatoclass (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about:

ALT2 is short enough, sourced, and reasonably interesting. However I just noticed that ref 10 includes the {{rp}} note ":32-33", yet the reference contains "p. 19" - which is it?--Launchballer 12:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are two different cites to ref 10, one to page 19 and the other to pages 32-33, I have adjusted the ref accordingly. Gatoclass (talk) 15:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, let's roll.--Launchballer 15:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Music of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 22:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Preamble from Vami[edit]

Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. My name is Vami, and I will be your reviewer. During this review I may make small edits such as spelling corrections, but I will only suggest substantive content changes in comments here. For responding to my comments, please use  Done,  Fixed, plus Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or minus Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. As my comments are addressed or rebutted, I will cross them out, and only my comments.

If I have demonstrated incompetence or caused offense, please let me know. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prose[edit]

  • [...] some of which were all assigned to specific characters and are adaptive to the events in the game. Recommend deleting "all" here, and changing the last clause to "adaptive to the gameplay."
    • Changed.
  • It would be nice to know how Platinum came to decide on Christopherson as the composer, especially since he hadn't done metal music before. Did he have some association with Soundelux?
    • I don't think this is known unfortunately. It could be implied he worked with Soundelux, but it's better to not make assumptions.
  • [...] such as Logan Mader, Graeme Cornies, Ferry Corsten, Jason Charles Miller, and remixers Maniac Agenda. Readers unfamiliar with these artists would benefit from some introductions here. Doesn't need to be much; just something like, "metal artists...".
    • Done.
  • [...] though most of his guidance was through Platinum. This clause confuses me. Do you mean that Kojima's guidance got to Christopherson via Platinum, or that most of Christopher's guidance on lyrical content was from Platinum?
    • Reworded it to hopefully clarify this.
  • [...] which were stealth based [...] Should be "stealth-based", no?
    • Done.
  • Per Platinum's request, the soundtrack was composed using heavy metal similarly to their previous projects such as Bayonetta (2009) and Anarchy Reigns (2012), [...] Recommend rewriting this chunk of the sentence, it's a little unwieldly and elongated. Try something like, "Platinum requested a soundtrack consisting of heavy metal, like the soundtracks of previous projects/games such as ...,".
    • Done.
  • [...] he required the assistance of other artists he had hired to mix their ideas together. This also feels wonky. Had Christopherson hired the artists prior to realizing he wasn't experienced in making metal (a strange proposition), or had he hired those artists because he was inexperienced in making metal music? Were they just producer types who happened to have experience with metal?
    • To be honest, I'm not too sure what this means either. I'm just going off of what the sources there are give me without making any assumptions.
  • [...] as the basis for the track Red Sun [...] tracks such as The Stains of Time. [...] the track The Only Thing I Know For Real, [...] where the track Rules of Nature [...] All song names should be in quotation marks.
    • Added quotations to the first usage of each song title, but not beyond that unless that is a requirement.
    Alright that's done. NegativeMP1 22:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The soundtrack was implemented in-game to be adaptive, with lyrics being responsive to what was happening in-game. [...] and fit with the characters further. Pretty vague and could be reworded.
    • Tried to make it less vague.
  • [...] to specifically kick in when Raiden parries the Metal Gear. I would not use "kick in". I recommend "to become audible when Raiden parries Ray."
    • Done.
  • There are too many "furthermore"s in #Reception and legacy, and not enough commas.
    • Might be fixed now?
  • They furthermore praised more tracks in the game, and furthermore described two specific ones, Collective Consciousness and The Hot Wind Blowing, to have similar themes based on American soldiers throughout history and usage of "blindly". Rewrite this.
    • Done.

Referencing[edit]

  • I recommend combining the citations to Rules of Nature into one citation and using Template:RP for page numbers, since the book is only cited twice (and it's the only book cited).
    • Done.

GA progress[edit]

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
I've addressed all above issues to what I was able to do, though what the sources say specifically (or ambiguously, rather) limit what specifics I can give, especially on the second concern pointed out. NegativeMP1 22:41, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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