Talk:Michael the Syrian

Starting the page

I've added whatever I had to get this article under way. There is more in the German article, but my German is a bit shaky. The only bits of the Chronicle that I can find are in French and about the crusades, so I have translated those and stuck them in here. But they give an unbalanced impression of his history, so if anyone can add more, that would be good. Roger Pearse 21:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The Hill Museum and Manuscript Library digitally photographed the entire 1598 copy of the 12th century Chronicle, the Edessa-Aleppo Syricac Codex, in Aleppo, Syria in 2008. Facsimile copes of the Chronicle will be printed by the Gorgias Press in 2009. Reader: T. Barrett , 19 May 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.115.185.130 (talk) 17:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit-war and distorted quote

There has recently been renewed edit-warring about a purported quotation from Michael the Syrian. Having checked up on it, I'll copy here the results of my check, for later reference.

1. We are dealing with this [2] repeated edit, ostensibly including a literal quotation from Michael the Great, sourced to an Assyrian POV website, from there ostensibly sourced to Adai Scher, and ultimately ostensibly sourced to an 19th-century edition, by J.-B. Chabot, of Michael's chronicle. ("History of Mikhael The Great Chabot Edition p. 748, 750, quoted after Addai Scher, Hestorie De La Chaldee Et De "Assyrie" [3]")
2. The website http://www.christiansofiraq.com is dead, but it's archived here [4]
3. If you look at that website, you will see that it is highly ambiguous as to whether it is ascribing the words in question to Adai Scher or to Michael himself. Apparently the entire paragraph is something written by Scher, with some bits in it ostensibly quoted from Michael, but it isn't typographically clear where those internal quotations begin and end. The website also does not contain the alleged page references to the Chabot edition.
4. The second-level reference, to Scher, is misspelled – the title of that work is not Hestorie De La Chaldee Et De "Assyrie" (which isn't correct French), but Histoire de la Chaldee et de l'Assyrie. I have not been able to locate an online version of this work, and there is no page number given for it. The book appears to be in French (based on an original apparently in Arabic), while the purported quote is in English, without explanation of whose translation it is. This English translation, together with the curious misspelling of Scher's title, occurs nowhere else on the web but on Wikipedia and on various partisan Assyrian websites and messageboards, all evidently blindly copying from each other.
5. The third-level reference, to the Chabot edition of Michael, is also wrong, as the Chabot edition doesn't even have pages numbered "748" and "750". (It's three volumes, and each volume goes to between 300 and 500 pages or so.) However, a full-text version of the Chabot edition is available on archive.org. In it, there is a passage that appears to be vaguely related to the alleged quote, not in "pages" 748/750, but in "sections" 748/750, which can be found in Vol. III, pp. 442-443 (§748) and pp. 445–446 (§750) respectively [5](large PDF file, may take a while to load.) I have read that text (in French). There are a few snippets that might somehow be related to snippets of the purported quote:

   (Update: It's been pointed out to me that the numbers 748 and 750 do in fact refer to pages after all. They are those in the Syriac-language text, which appears to form a separate volume in Chabot's edition.)

Alleged quotation	Chabot text	My translation of Chabot text
Your Syrian sect has no importance neither honor, and you did never have a kingdom, neither an honorable king'. The Jacobites answered by saying [...]	[nothing corresponding in Chabot's text, although the whole passage in Michael's text is indeed about a defense against the charge that the Arameans/Syrians didn't have ancient kings and empires]
[...] that even if their name is "Syrian", they are originally "Assyrians" and they have had many honorable kings [...]	[nothing in Chabot's text; might be Adai Scher's attempt at summarizing Michael]
Syria is in the west of Euphrates, and its inhabitants who are talking our Aramaic language, and who are so-called "Syrians", are only a part of the "all", while the other part which was in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay. [...]	Ainsi, on voit que la Syrie était à l'ouest de l'Euphrate; et qu'on appelle par métaphore «Syriens» ceux qui parlent notre langue à nous, Araméens, et dont les Syriens ne sont qu'une partie; tout le reste' habite à l'est de l'Euphrate, c'est-à-dire depuis les rives de l'Euphrate jusqu'en Perse. Et depuis les rives de l'Euphrate jusqu'à l'Orient, il y eut de nombreux rois. [...] [p.445-446]	So, one can see that Syria was to the west of the Euphrates, and that the name "Syrians" is applied by way of metaphor to those who speak our language, the Arameans, of which the Syrians are only one part; the others all live east of the Euphrates, that is from the banks of the Euphrates all the way to Persia. And from the banks of the Euphrate towards the East, there have been numerous kings. [...]
Assyrians, who were called "Syrians" by the Greeks, were also the same Assyrians, I mean "Assyrians" from "Assur" who built the city of Nineveh.	[nothing closely corresponding, though some bits appear to echo the following: ] Josèphe […] appelle Asùr «Assour», en langue grecque : «Assour, de qui proviennent les Assyriens, bâtit Ninive» [p.443]	Josephus […] calls Asùr "Assur", in Greek: "Assur, from which derive the Assyrians, built Niniveh".

I am concluding that the alleged quotation is indeed fabricated, and am warning everybody against reinserting it.

The other quotation [6] is more or less correct as far as Michael's text goes, but it is WP:OR as long as it is not supported by a reliable WP:Secondary source explaining what its significance might be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:31, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: Further investigation into this lead me too.....Not being able to locate the French in any University library in Australia. However the original work by Addai Scher was a book in Arabic called "Chaldo wAshur" translates into "Chaldeans and Assyrians". This book happens to appear in my father's collection, so He read through it (I don't know Arabic). And all the references attributed to Michael the Syrian by Addai Scher by multiple Wikipedia Users simply don't exists. Michael the Syrian is referenced in the book, but not in the way that was used here.

In fact Scher's book is littered with passages claiming the Chaldeans and Assyrians are in fact Arameans.

So the misquotation of Michael the Syrian is not actually in the Scher's Arabic. I seriously doubt that falsification is in the french translation, since it is much more likely to belong to more recent Assyrian Propaganda peddlers.

Sr 76 (talk) 09:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@Djwilms: I saw you post on the Assyrian Continuity page about Michael the Syrian, this section may answer some of your concerns Sr 76 (talk) 17:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Historical Works Influenced by the Edessean Schools

Dorothea Weltecke Religious Origins of Nations?: The Christian Communities of the Middle East Page: 119 Things become less clear when we try to decide his position concerning secular and ethnic identity. It is obvious that for Michael the ancient Near East had a very special importance. The ancient Near East recurred in the Chronicle. In the heading of his Appendix II Michael states: 'With the help of God we write down the memory of the kingdoms which belong in the past to our Aramean people, that is, sons of Aram, who are called Suryoye [Syriacs], this people from Syria'......

Page: 120 "But when he named those decendants of Shem who possess a script he says the following: 'These are the names of the people who have script among the descendants of Shem: Chaldeans, Oturoye [Assyrians], who are the Suryoye [Syriacs], Hebrew, Persians, Medes, Arabs'. A few pages before he said: 'These are the descendants pf Shem, Oturoye [Assyrians], Chaldeans, Lydians, Oromoye [Arameans], that is , Suryoye [Syriacs]'. Who are the Suryoye [Syriacs] to Michael: Assyrians or Arameans? While is painful for outspoken Arameans to be identified with the Assyrians, one has to bear in mind, that following Jacob of Edessa, Michael also supports the hypothesis that Assyrians are descendants of the Arameans. For Michael, Aramaic is the original language spoken not only in all of the ancient Near Eastern empires but by mankind in general, before the confusion of the languages after the building of the Tower of Babel took place. While Michael was not the first to hold this opinion, his position will be underlined here to highlight the difference between his and modern viewpoints of Assyrians and Arameans." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sr 76 (talk • contribs) 07:26, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2015

the following was removed by Suryoye85 on 08:08, 27 March 2015 "...the kingdoms which have been established in antiquity by our race, (that of) the Arameans, namely the descendants of Aram, who were called Syriac."

it looks like the only reason why he removed it was because, that the fake Assyrian quote was removed, so he deleted this one out of spite. it should be restored.

He identifies the Syriac-speakers of his time with the ancient Arameans:

...the kingdoms which have been established in antiquity by our race, (that of) the Arameans, namely the descendants of Aram, who were called Syriac.

Sr 76 (talk) 14:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: There needs to be a better reason to include it than "it was removed and it should be restored", given that this was one of the issues that caused the article to be protected, and it is only sourced to a primary source. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 15:49, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I should have explained it better. It was not one of the issues that caused the article to be blocked, they were falsified quotes the I identified, by Assyrian Bishop named Adia Scher. They have nothing to do with this quote. Please see the section above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Michael_the_Syrian#Historical_Works_Influenced_by_the_Edessean_Schools
The quote provides a clear indication of the writers theories about origins of Nations he identified with as someone from the Edessean Schooling.

With the help of God we write down the memory of the kingdoms which belong in the past to our Aramean people, that is, sons of Aram, who are called Suryoye [Syriacs], this people from Syria.

Sr 76 (talk) 11:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm willing to make the edit as there has been no opposition yet. Can you clarify exactly what needs to be changed to what? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:54, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Please insert the following:

He provides a clear indication of the writers perspective about origins of multiple nations and the reverence of his own Aramean origins that is heavily influenced by his Edessean Schooling.

With the help of God we write down the memory of the kingdoms which belong in the past to our Aramean people, that is, sons of Aram, who are called Suryoye [Syriacs], this people from Syria.

Where?? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

At the very bottom of the "Points of interest" section, thank you.

Sr 76 (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done. I took out "clear" because that is a subjective word. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit request

The "Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch" template should be removed as that template is used for patriarchs prior to the formation of the Syriac Orthodox Church and Syriac Orthodox patriarchs are covered by the "Patriarchs of the Syriac Orthodox Church" template. Also, the Category:Syriac people should be replaced with Category:Syrian archbishops and Category:Syrian Oriental Orthodox Christians because, according to John Joseph, "'Syrians' (Suraye/Suroyo) was the name by which the 'Nestorians' and 'Jacobites' called themselves until the post-World War I period". The term "Jacobite" is used to refer to adherents of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Mugsalot (talk) 14:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

What does this add to the page and how is it specific to Michael the Syrian? Sr 76 (talk) 16:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Content wise, the edit would add nothing. The edit is purely categorical. Category:Syriac people is now a redirect and should have no articles in it, therefore, the Michael the Syrian article should be moved into more appropriate categories. Mugsalot (talk) 20:18, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Exactly it has nothing to do with the page just opening to change the page into an Assyrian POV platformSr 76 (talk) 23:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You might like to read WP:GF first and foremost. If I was advocating an Assyrian POV, then theoretically wouldn't I request the change to Category:Assyrian people instead? I am requesting that Michael the Syrian be put in the Category:Syrian Christians on the basis of a book, not an agenda. "Syrian" is used to refer to Middle-Eastern Syriac Christians prior to "Assyrian" and "Aramean" nationalism of the 20th century, the article title is indicative of what category the article should be in. Mugsalot (talk) 00:26, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

there is no point in telling someone to assume WP:GF, and follow it up by trying to Assyrianizing the page.Sr 76 (talk) 03:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you @Ser Amantio di Nicolao:, however, I have made a mistake in asking the article be put in the Category:Syrian Christians parent category. I think the Michael the Syrian article would be better suited in Category:Syrian archbishops and Category:Syrian Oriental Orthodox Christians, given that he was both an archbishop and an Oriental Orthodox Christian. @Sr 76:, could you please explain how I am "Assyrianizing the page", because I clearly don't know enough about the topic to realise I am. Mugsalot (talk) 09:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Done I have adjusted the categories as requested. Sorry for the delay. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

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