Talk:Mayim Bialik/Archive 1

Early life

Section states "She earned a bachelor's degree in 2000 in neuroscience, Hebrew and Jewish studies, and went on to the PhD program in neuroscience."

I doubt that's a single bachelor's degree in three concentrations (though two are closely related). Did she simultaneously earn three bachelor's degrees?

--Mfwills (talk) 17:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I have updated the article according to the source http://alumni.ucla.edu/share/alumni-stories/stories/mayim-bialik.aspx Elizium23 (talk) 00:11, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Mayim Bialik

See Talk:List of The Big Bang Theory characters#Dr._Mayim_Bialik regarding the inclusion of the title "Dr." before Bialik's name, as there is an inconsistency between this article and List of The Big Bang Theory characters#Amy_Farrah_Fowler. —sroc 💬 14:45, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Anti-vaccine stance

The article lacks any mention of Dr. Bialik's anti-vaccination stance and the resultant controversy in 2012. There is a plethora of information about this available by googling "mayim bialik vaccines" (sans quotes). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainier Wolfcastle (talk • contribs) 01:45, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

--Added under personal life Kdmeaney (talk) 04:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

American people of Jewish descent

This category was removed on the grounds "Jews are not a race". I would like to point out A ) whether or not you believe they are a race is irrelevant, as per WP:NPOV and B ) the category exists for a reason i.e. to catalog those of Jewish ancestry. If there is a valid reason for removing it, let's hear it. Otherwise, the cat should be restored.Evildoer187 (talk) 09:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

A) NPOV has nothing to do with whether groups are a race or ethnicity. Race/ethnicity involves blood and genetics. Historian John Weiss explains his book Ideology of Death: Why the Holocaust Happened in Germany how religious groups are separate from racial/ethnic groups. He states "The Nazis had researchers working through the war analyzing Jewish blood to try to see what was Jewish about it," and "They were determined to find something different". In the end, they found nothing different. Also, there are many people who celebrate Judaism that do not share any common racial/ethnic background with one another.

B) One cannot use Wikipedia pages as references for claims or articles that mirror Wikipedia, particularly not for arguments on Wikipedia itself. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 13:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

1. The point being that you can't simply remove a category just because you believe it "racializes" Jews. To do that would be to push a personal POV. The category in question is "American people of Jewish descent". Mayim Bialik is indeed an American woman of Jewish ancestry, therefore the category applies here. How and why the Holocaust happened and what constitutes a race/ethnicity is not even remotely relevant to the application of categories. It is obvious that you fundamentally disagree with the idea that there should be a Jewish descent category in the first place, so you should bring your complaints about that to the appropriate noticeboard.

2. If we were to apply this in every case, the category would quickly be orphaned. Per my statements above, if you have an issue with this category, make an appeal for it to be deleted. Otherwise, there is no case for removing it from this article.Evildoer187 (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

My basis is the above book, which indicates blood tests proved they are not ethnically different from others. Because of this, it would be inaccurate to say one is of "*insert religion* ancestry". In reality, she is a woman with ancestors who observed Judaism. In this case, her ethnicity is Polish, Hungarian, and Czech. Even outside of the Holocaust, historian John Weiss makes the point that religion is not the same as ethnicity/race/heritage. One cannot under any circumstance use Wikipedia pages as references for claims or readings that mirror Wikipedia because sources cannot just be used to self-validate. It would be like saying "If I said this elsewhere at some other point, it must be true". One must have a basis from a source that is not one's own self. If using Wikipedia pages as a basis for claims, the claim is not going to be seen as having much merit, especially not on Wikipedia itself. This isn't my exclusive opinion, just things I've observed. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 13:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

That is your personal opinion, and there are many more who disagree. Second, why do you think the category exists? If you don't like Jews being classified as being of Jewish descent, file a complaint about the category and ask for it to be deleted. Otherwise, the category will be restored. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, Jews fall under the scope of ethnicity and nationality, rendering this category apt.Evildoer187 (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with opinion. I was referencing a book and provided quotes. Just because something exists doesn't necessarily mean it is accurate. There are religious cultures/societies, but no religious ethnicities. Religion is separate from ethnicity/race/heritage, and culture is often mistaken for ethnicity/race/heritage. Also, see this. So far, you have not provided any references to support your claim that is not Wikipedia itself. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 16:06, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

That book you cited is from the 19th century, and is outdated. The idea that Jews are a religion only has been disproven by much more recent genetic studies. Second, Jews are an ethno-religious group in the same vein as the Druze and Samaritans, unlike open religious groups like Christianity and Islam. Therefore, categories of descent are applicable to people with Jewish ancestry. One can be Jewish without being religious e.g. Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Karl Marx, Heinrich Heine (who converted to Christianity, but is still listed as a Jew), Leon Trotsky, and many more.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:33, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

No- the book was from the 20th century. It was from January 1996 to be more specific. You still have not indentified/provided any sources that are not Wikipedia itself to support your claim. One cannot be of any "*insert religion* descent" because religion is a separate concept from ethnicity/race/heritage. Besides, saying one is of "*insert religion* descent" doesn't indicate where their ethnic roots are from. Again, there are religious cultures/societies, but no religious ethnicities. Culture is often mistaken for heritage. As I also indicated, there are many Jews who share no common ethnic background with one another. For example, a full-blooded Scottish man who observes Judaism has no common ethnic background with a full-blooded Welsh man who observes Judaism. If you are arguing that the first people to observe Judaism shared a common ethnic background, and provided a reliable source (Wikipedia itself cannot be used and neither can sources that mirror it), that would be one thing. The idea of "*insert religion* descent" is misleading because it also neglects those who convert to said religion that had no common ethnic background with the original observers of that religion (if those original observers all shared common ethnic background). Do all within one certain area who observe Judaism have common ethnic background? Perhaps. Globally? Certainly not. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

My mistake. I had the wrong John Weiss.

Regardless, Jewish descent = people with Jewish ancestry. Jews are an ethnoreligious group and nation, according to all official Halakhic, historical, and encyclopedic definitions, so "descent" and all of its trappings applies in this case. Putting aside the fact that Jewish communities around the globe share significant ancestry in common (for example, Ashkenazim share more ancestry in common with Sephardim, Mizrahim, etc than with indigenous Europeans), religious belief is not the sole determining factor of Jewishness because there are atheist Jews, Christian Jews, etc. Mayim Bialik is of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, so the category is appropriate here.Evildoer187 (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The thing is that "*insert religion* ancestry/descent" is a misleading idea. There are Jewish cultures, but no Jewish ethnicities. Culture is a lifestyle, and is often confused with heritage/race/ethnicity due to certain cultures being prominent in certain regions. If there are historical definitions indicating ethnoreligion, you have not specified which ones. For example, what text states that? Simply stating "there are historical/encyclopedic definitions" is vague and doesn't provide much information. Her ancesty is Polish, Hungarian, and Czech. If Ashkenazi Judaism refers to people with European roots that observe Judaism, then she is Ashkenazi. If you dispute the book I provided, that's one thing, but your argument so far isn't well supported since you have not specified names of references that dispute it (not counting Wikipedia pages themselves as they are not reliable per this and WP:MIRROR). XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 20:21, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Judaism is a religion, and Jews are an ethnicity. Mayim Bialik is of the Jewish ethnicity, and therefore belongs under the Jewish descent category. Ashkenazi Jew refers to Israelites who settled in Central and Eastern Europe following their exile from Judaea in what is now Israel/Palestine. They are not simply Poles or Russians who converted to Judaism at certain points in time.Evildoer187 (talk) 21:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Citations.... Ethnic minorities in English law – Google Books. Books.google.co.uk. Retrieved on 2010-12-23.

Edgar Litt (1961). "Jewish Ethno-Religious Involvement and Political Liberalism". Social Forces 39 (4): 328–332. doi:10.2307/2573430. JSTOR 2573430.

"Are Jews a Religious Group or an Ethnic Group?". Institute for Curriculum Services. Retrieved 21 October 2013.

Sean Ireton (2003). "The Samaritans – A Jewish Sect in Israel: Strategies for Survival of an Ethno-religious Minority in the Twenty First Century". Anthrobase. Retrieved 2009-12-30.

Levey, Geoffrey Brahm. Toward a Theory of Disproportionate American Jewish Liberalism.

J. Alan Winter (March 1996). "Symbolic Ethnicity or Religion Among Jews in the United States: A Test of Gansian Hypotheses". Review of Religious Research 37 (3).Evildoer187 (talk) 21:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Jew = One who observes Judaism. Simple as that. If any of those citations mirror Wikipedia or even use it as a reference, they are not considered reliable. Another flaw with your argument is this: If Jews were an ethnicity, you've stated nothing about where their geographical origins would be. Did the original observers of Judaism all have common ethnic background? Perhaps, but to say all who have ever observed Judaism have common ethnic background would definitely be a stretch when so many Jews have no common ethnic background with one another. Also, as I've indicated, saying one is of "*insert religion* descent" essentially neglects those who convert to said religion and the descendants of those converts if the original observers all had common ethnic background that the convert did not share. For example, a full-blooded Cuban man who observes Judaism has no common ethnic background with a full-blooded Danish man who observes Judaism or a full-blooded Vietnamese man who observes Judaism. As for Ashkenazi, at least you specified what their background is. However, if they are ethnically Israeli, then Mayim Bialik is definitely not Ashkenazi. This indicates her ethnicity is Polish, Hungarian, and Czech. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)