Talk:Mar Thoma Syrian Church/Archive 3

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Official Name 'Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian CHURCH'

The details of other names of Marthoma church officially and commonly called detailed in Definitions .hope now we have a consensus that the name Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church exists after the discussion on WP:RM .Iravikorthanan (talk) 10:01, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Marthoma church has NO official lineage of the Malankara Syrian Church

Reference: Travancore Royal Court verdict in 1889. Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 02:13, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear
  • Whether Indian ORTHODOX CHURCH hAS LINEAGE OF MALANKARA?

Because as per royal court verdict, The metropolitans and bishops have to consecrated with the consent of Patriarch only, and supremacy of Patriarch in administrative matters is paramount. Indian orthodox do not consecrate their catholicos, MM or any bishops with the patriarchs consent. Moreover they say The patriarch authority in Malankara is Null .

  • whether Jacocobite church is a Malankara church?

As per jacobite church constitution and other official records the so called JSCC is only a Archdioceses of Syriac orthodox church in india. Precisely Malankara dioceses.royal court order still holds good for them , but not the supreme court verdict.

  • the origin of malankara church was to desist foreign authority in malabar. During royal court trial Mavelikara padiyola 1836,Mulanthurathy padiyola 1876 ,the False canon affidavit (kappi canon) exhibit 15 was the document which aided the verdict against Marthoma and brought Malankara church and its assets and bishops directly under a foreign authority .The result is that still the cases have not end.
  • whether Malankara catholic church can use name malankara? pls be rational and logical
  • you have been given links of
  1. Census report 1901 and 1961
  2. Church Website
  3. Church Constitution
  4. church publication like hymn book. thaksa, hasha order, eucharist order,etc
  5. links of leading news papers reporting the mar thoma church events
  6. and other wiley , popular christian encyclopedias

which are self evident and self defining that marthoma church has a name malankara marthoma syrian church accepted widely even then you are repeatedly reverting which is a bad practiceIravikorthanan (talk) 04:48, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


  • The reformist faction was a part of the Malankara Church/Malankara Syrian Church until the Royal Court verdict in 1889. The Travancore Royal court decreed that the reformist faction has no claims over the Malankara church. Then the reformist faction organized as a separate church with the name Reformed Syrian Church. In 1893 they adopted a new name for the church called Marthoma Church or Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar.

Malankara Syrian Church(Jacobite&Orthodox) is a different church still existing. Why are you claiming the lineage of this Oriental Orthodox Church after seperating from it and organized a new church with different theology, creed and beliefs (Syrian & Anglican mix).Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Marthoma Metropolitans

In this church context, please use Marthoma metropoltan limited to Marthoma church. Please don't extend your claim and lineage to Malankara Church in this context. This will confuse the Wiki readers.Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 18:49, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Edits regarding 'malankara inclusion

Dear kokarani pls do not revert edit without any ref or justification. Marthoma Church has the name and is referred many times from 1890s as Malankara Marthoma Syrian CHURCH. cENSUS REPORT OF 1901 and census report of 1961 (govt reports) infact show that the Marthoma church is called as Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church. Whether you accept or not Marthoma church is formed because of the issues of intepretation of Independence of Apostalic see of St Thomas In Malankara and reformation in Malankara? if the majority verdict favoured Metran Kakshi (Marthoma FACTION) ,it would have been the jacobites who would have to move out of Kottayam seminary and 59 churches of Malankara.

The lineage of marthoma metropolitan is counting from the marthoma metrans and subsequent malankara metropolitans who argued and advocated the independence of the malankara church. the Consecration of titus 1 as Marthoma XV is the proof . subsequently all marthoma metrans were numbered and called accordingly .The present one Joseph Mar Thoma, Mar Thoma XXI. It is a fact. Your reverts seems to create some sort of propaganda. For sake of your argument even if its is accepted that Malankara cannot be used for a Syrian+anglican mix ( which is not true) then how can Malankara Be used for Malankara Catholic Church which is (Syrian +roman mix. Kokarani needs to understand that ,nothing quoted is artificial . it is proper ref. Discussion with you is non ending.

pLS REVERT THE EDIT , ONLY IF YOU HAVE PROOF THAT mARTHOMA cHurch is Not Called as Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church . It is for the sake of the integrity of wiki page and stopping edit war.Iravikorthanan (talk) 05:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Sitush

The earliest families within the Jewish community to accept the path of Christianity through St.Thomas, later intermarried with the ethnic local community and Brahmins of the 6th century. This led to the upbringing of marginal class or 'sambandham' brahminic family clans like Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri and Kalli to a different socioeconomic status, they are now widely accepted as the first families who adopted an emigre way of life or 'Christianity' in Kerala. According to recent DNA research by Dr. Mini Kariappa, a significant number of Syrian Christians and Knanaya's share their ancestral roots with the West Eurasian gene pool of Jews.[1][citation needed]

References

  1. ^ http://www.nazraney.com/images/Dr.MINI_Paper_JEWS_manuscript_jews.pdf

Saints Statues in an Orthodox Church?

Mar Thoma Church comes from an Oriental Orthodox Church Background, how a catholic saint statue was there?.201.249.105.73 (talk) 20:07, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 8 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved  — Amakuru (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


Mar Thoma Syrian Church → Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church – As per the official website of this denomination, the english name is Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church. Source: http://marthoma.in/ This is also the name that is used in all published books and materials of the church. And this name is also used in common parlance among the members of this denomination as well as several other denominations. Note: Both the existing name of this page and the proposed name is used interchangeably in common parlance. Additionally, the church is registered under the Societies Registration Act and other relevant acts in force in India, with this name. Source: I could not find an online source for the official list of Religious Organisations of India. The existing name Mar Thomas Syrian Church is only used a short form of the official name. However the name currently in use in this page has been used as a source of several arguments and offensive attacks against members of this church, to denote them as not an official Malankara Church, but just as a outcast church. Note: If anyone would like clarification on the historical position of this church, please contact my talk page. Baseleious Nikephoros (talk) 22:02, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I am totally against it. The reformist faction separated from the Malankara Syrian Church and for some time were called as Reformist faction. Later they were legally evicted from the Malankara Church and they accepted the name simply Marthoma Church or Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar. The true intention behind this claim is that the Marthoma Church wanted to prove that Marthoma Church members wanted to prove that or claiming that they are/were the true successor church of the Malnkara church formed in 1663. How ever actually the Marthoma Church started with the missionary activity of the Anglicans with the Malankara Syrian Church.Please red the lead sentence of the Marthoma Church and also the references. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 23:11, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose per my comments the last time this exact move was proposed just 3 months ago, and previous discussions going back years. The proposed title is far less common. "Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church" receives only 100 Google Books hits compared to 1120 for "Mar Thoma Syrian Church" currently. The church itself uses both version interchangeably. There's no policy or evidence based reason to support this move.--Cúchullain t/c 01:47, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reasons for considering Mar Thoma Syrian Church as one of the remnant church of Malankara Church

I would like to discuss this topic and come to a common consensus. First of all i would like to state a few statements which are commonly the source of the disputes and specifically the events around 1870-1890:

1) Malankara Church was not subject to the authority of the Patriarch of Antioch: The main essence of the Coonen Cross Oath was that the Malankara Church in India is Independant and shall remain independant and will not submit to any foreign Bishops authority. Further when the Patriarch of Antioch tried to consecrate bishop ‘Abraham Mar Koorilose’ as the successor of ‘Metropolitan Mar Dionysius I’ in 1772, he failed and this consecration was not accepted by the Malankara Church and this resulted in the formation of the thozhiyoor church under ‘Abraham Mar Koorilose’.

Which brings me to the next point:

2) Power to choose successor of the Metropolitan: The existing Metropolitan had the power to choose his successor and not anyone else. Metropolitan Mathews Mar Athanasius is acknowledged as the Marthoma XIII by all the present factions, i.e. Orthodox, Jacobite and Marthoma. Further he was the one who ordained Parumala Thirumeni. :) Anyway, the aforementioned Mathews Mar Athanasius appointed Thomas Mar Athanasius as his successor and head of the Malankara Church.

So when the court of Travancore ordered that Joseph Mar Dionysius is the successor to Mathews Mar Athanasius in 1889, this succession would be invalid. Further, nowhere at anytime in its history has the power to choose the head of the church been given to a Court of law by any of the Christian denominations.

3) Synod of Mulanthuruthy – 1876 The party that opposed the existing metropolitan Mathews Mar Athanasius convened a synod and submitted themselves to the authority of the Patriarch of Antioch (in opposition to the Coonen Cross Oath). This faction later developed into the Jacobite and Orthodox Syrian churches.

Based on the above information it would seem that the successor of the Metropolitan Thomas Mar Athanasius would be considered the successors of the Malankara Church.

However this faction made many changes to the liturgy and practices in an attempt to restore the beliefs that existed prior to the Synod of Diamper, and named themselves the Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church.

Which brings me to the final point

4) The church that existed after Synod of Diamper and Coonen Cross Oath was different from the church that existed before the Synod of Diamper. The Malankara Church of the Coonen Cross Oath was a highly Latinized form of the pre Synod of Diamper church.

Hence it would seem there is no true single successor to the Malankara Church, The closest successor in terms of continuous leadership would be the Malankara Marthoma Church, however they themselves claim that they try to emulate the Pre- Synod of Diamper church.

The closest successor in terms of common forms of practices/ and liturgy would be the Jacobite and Orthodox churches. However they submitted themselves to the authority of the Patriarch of Antioch, and hence could be seen as only a branch of the Antiochan church in India.

I hope this would resolve the disputes going on among the Syrian Christians.


An additional point which is commonly discussed about the Marthoma Church due their Anglican influence is that they are an Anglican church. However:

5) Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church is not an Anglican church:

The main common practices among the Anglican Churches around the world are as follows:

1) Book of Common Prayer 2) Feasts and Saints of the Anglican communion 3) Bishop of Canterbury is the spiritual head. 4) Anglican divines 5) Rosary prayers, Intercessory prayers and prayers to the dead.

Based on my research Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church does not have any of these practices, and in fact some of these practices were explicitly removed from their beliefs.

Therefore the claim that the Marthoma Church is the Anglican church of India is incorrect. In fact there is a small church called the Church of South India which fulfils that position. However both these churches have acknowledged the independence and validity of the other, and the aforementioned CSI church and Marthoma church are in communion with each other.


Further, all of the beliefs and practices of the Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church can be traced to the West Syrian Liturgy and beliefs. A few of the beliefs of the West Syrian rite have been ommited. However nothing additional has been added. The majority is exactly the same as the West Syrian Rite.

If anyone disagrees with the above information, please do reply. It would also be helpful if the replies can be directed specificaly to each point. Once consensus is reached, maybe a final version of this page can be agreed upon and the edit war might stop.

Regards, Nikki. Baseleious Nikephoros (talk) 22:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)


I am totally against it. The reformist faction separated from the Malankara Syrian Church and for some time were called as Reformist faction. Later they were legally evicted from the Malankara Church and they accepted the name simply Marthoma Church or Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar. The true intention behind this claim is that the Marthoma Church members wanted to prove that or claiming that they are/were the true successor church of the Malankara church formed in 1663. How ever actually the Marthoma Church started with the missionary activity of the Anglicans with the Malankara Syrian Church.Please read the lead sentence of the Marthoma Church and also the references. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 23:13, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Dear Nikki(Former user:Iravikorthanan):


1) "At the arrival of the Portuguese on the West Coast, the Syrians had bishops sent by the Nestorian Patriarch of Babylon. The Portuguese were pro- bably not aware of it, and within fifty years these bishops died out. At this time, there was a movement among the Nes- torians for reconciliation with Rome, and a large body of them submitted under the leadership of Sullaca who went to Rome, and in 1553 was proclaimed by Popq Julius III as John, Patriarch of the Chaldeans. "From that date the word 'Chal- dean' has been applied to those Nestorians who have abjured the Nestorian heresy, and are in communion with Rome, and their Patriarch is called the Chaldean Patriarch of Babylon in distinction from the Nestorian Patriarch of Babylon."

Syriac and Chaldean are sister languages as are Tamil and Malayalam- Syriac is spoken in the country about Antioch and Damascus, and Chaldean is spoken near Babylon and Bagdad. Roman Catholics in Syria use the Chaldean language, and Jacobites use the Syriac"* (Milne Rae,George. The Syrian Church)


"therefore from the date of the diocesan synod of Diamper, the diocese was severed from the Patriarchate of Babylon, and was placed under a bishop nominated by the King of Portugal, and afterwards under a Vicar Apostolic sent directly by propaganda, These are in- dications that the Romo-Syrians disliked this system. They had their own oriental rite, but they longed for an oriental bishop, and they looked to the Chaldean Patriarch of Babylon as their quarter from which this oriental bishop should come. There was one such movement in 1709, and another in J 787 under Thomas Pareamakal in the same direction (India, Orientalis Christiana)". 1

2)"The Syrian Church was closely connected with the Patriarch of Antioch for more than 200 years, and during the long period one Metran was consecrated by delegation of the Patriarch, and the other by the Patriarch's own hands. All the rest were, so far as documentary or legal evidence is concerned, without any authority, and there was no proof that they were bishops at all."

Milne Rae,George. The Syrian Church, pp. 270-270

Dear all Baseleious Nikephoros is not Iravikorthanan Iravikorthanan (talk) 11:36, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Marthoma title

There is no point in adding MARTHOMA XX in my opinion. There is no reference for this claim. Marthoma is a honorific title taken by the metropolitans in the Malankara church. (please see 'Malankara Metropolitan' in wikipedia).There were 9 Marthoma titles, Marthoma 1 to Marthoma 9. Thats it. Afterwards the metropolitans of the Malankara church did not took this title.(no more Mathoma 10 or Marthoma 11). So its a false claim when some body saying Marthoma XX, however they could easily say or add simply 'Marthoma' with out any numbering. I object adding the number 'xx' to 'Marthoma' title because there is no such numbering exist after 9th Marthoma. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 15:55, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

dear mr mandrake pls go through this links to understand the usage of Marthoma EXISTS IN MARTHOMA CHURCH

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Yt6vAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT492&lpg=PT492&dq=marthoma+xxi&source=bl&ots=tpOkIxuAFL&sig=pigOm6vKo1nemoUnlMwFao6cRpY&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjMwfD4ponQAhWJro8KHfU_B18Q6AEIVTAM#v=onepage&q=marthoma%20xxi&f=false
http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/eng/Joseph_Mar_Irenaeus
http://www.liquisearch.com/what_is_mar_thoma_metropolitan

160.202.210.199 (talk) 05:14, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

dear mandrake also go through

http://www.jerusalemchurchdelhi.org/bishops.htm

160.202.210.199 (talk) 05:18, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Usage of Marthoma title is accepted , however numbering is not accepted.The reference you provided are church websites which is not acceptable ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 12:56, 2 November 2016 (UTC)


dear kokkarani this is not church publication

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Yt6vAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT492&lpg=PT492&dq=marthoma+xxi&source=bl&ots=tpOkIxuAFL&sig=pigOm6vKo1nemoUnlMwFao6cRpY&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjMwfD4ponQAhWJro8KHfU_B18Q6AEIVTAM#v=onepage&q=marthoma%20xxi&f=false
eastern christianity by leucian n leustan

117.206.15.51 (talk) 04:47, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you agree Marthoma Church as

as a Protestant church as it says?Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 00:05, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Update

This edit could be changed from Mathews Mar Athanasious to Thomas Mar Athanasious per http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/5839/1/5839_3254.PDF

Clarification required in usage terms of Malankara and Malabar. An explanation shows Marthoma church equals to Malankara church. Other church related registration[1] and alliance[2] documents say Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar. There is this Gokaranam mentioned is it Gokarna, Karnataka.

References

  1. ^ https://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/mar-thoma-syrian-church-of-malabar
  2. ^ http://www.episcopalchurch.org/page/mar-thoma-syrian-church-malabar-india

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Who was the founder?

For a long time, this article has stated that St. Thomas was the founder. Someone revised that today to Abraham Malpan. I reverted that because Maplan worked in the 1800's and the church is older than that.

But do we know that St. Thomas (Thomas the apostle) was the founder?? Or is that merely "tradition"? 

 It is traditionally belived that St. Thomas (Mar Thoma in Syriac), the disciple of Jesus Christ came to India in AD 52 and established the Church in the Malabar coast. http://marthoma.in/the-church/overview/

  Tradition dictates that in 52 AD, St. Thomas arrived on a trading vessel from Alexandria to Cranganore (Malankara), which was an early haven for Jews of the diaspora. He first went to the Jews of Kerala and then to the Gentiles. He had erected seven churches in the following locations: Cranganor Chavakad (Palur) Parur near Alwaye Gakamangalam Niranam Nilakkal (Chayal) Quilon (Kalyan) The Apostle Thomas ordained two bishops, Kepha and Paul, for Malabar and Coromandal (Mylapore). On Dec. 19th, 72 AD, he was impaled while praying in Mylapore. https://owlcation.com/humanities/Marthoma-Church-history

I wonder if an encyclopedia should consider "tradition" to be fact? IMHO, we have no idea who founded the Mar Thoma church and the fact chart should not specify St. Thomas. Peter K Burian (talk) 14:40, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

P.S. Granted, this article says that he founded the church ... but does that make sense? Was it not founded centuries earlier???
  Palakunnathu Abraham Malpan (പാലകുന്നത്ത് അബ്രഹാം മൽപ്പാൻ), also known as Martin Luther of the East (30 May, 1796 – 9 September, 1845) was born in the ancient Syrian Christian Palakunnathu Family which practiced Knanaya West Syriac Rite Oriental Orthodoxy after the Coonan Cross Oath and is an Indian clergyman of the Malankara Syrian Church who translated and revised the liturgy, restoring the Church to what he considered to be its pristine position before the Synod of Diamper. He therefore strove hard for the abolition of auricular confession, prayers for the dead, invocation of saints, and veneration of sacraments. Further he emphasised the reading and study of the Bible, family-worship and evangelistic work. He insisted on a high moral standard of conduct for laity and clergy. All this created a ferment in the Church and its effects are still discernible in the Malankara Syrian Church as a whole. This led to the formation of the Mar Thoma Syrian Church in 1898.[1]

What are your thoughts about this, User:Prattlement?

Peter K Burian (talk) 14:45, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

AND I see that the chart shows the founding in the 1800s. Does that make sense?? Was Malpan the founder of the entire church???
  In 1837 Abraham Malpan celebrated Holy Qurbana in his own Maramon Church for the first time in Malayalam language using a revised liturgy. He also took courage to send deacon Mathew to Mardin in Syria with a petition to the Patriarch of Antioch. The Patriarch received him, the first ever Christian of the Mar Thoma tradition to visit him in person. The Patriarch being pleased, consecrated Mathews as Metropolitan with the title Mar Athanasius. In 1843, he returned to Kerala and assumed responsibility as the Metropolitan of the entire Malankara Mar Thoma Christians. Since he supported the reform movement of Abraham Malpan, a section of the people led by Chepat Mar Dionysius opposed him. Mathews Mar Athanasius got royal proclamation in 1852 declaring him as the Metropolitan of the Malankara Church. In 1837 Abraham Malpan celebrated Holy Qurbana in his own Maramon Church for the first time in Malayalam language using a revised liturgy. He also took courage to send deacon Mathew to Mardin in Syria with a petition to the Patriarch of Antioch. The Patriarch received him, the first ever Christian of the Mar Thoma tradition to visit him in person. The Patriarch being pleased, consecrated Mathews as Metropolitan with the title Mar Athanasius. In 1843, he returned to Kerala and assumed responsibility as the Metropolitan of the entire Malankara Mar Thoma Christians. Since he supported the reform movement of Abraham Malpan, a section of the people led by Chepat Mar Dionysius opposed him. Mathews Mar Athanasius got royal proclamation in 1852 declaring him as the Metropolitan of the Malankara Church. http://www.abudhabimarthomachurch.com/marthoma_history

Peter K Burian (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested to year long temporary lock this page!

I'm getting freaken tire of these anonymous users, who keep thinking what they should but on the page's infobox despite it's current history said very clearly otherwise. And this let me to no choice but demanding of locking this page up for maybe 5 months to 1 year of stop this ridiculous BS and these morons can't go to talking page to debate why they are right, but they dumbly can and now them to punished them for can't changing their bloodly minds. Chad The Goatman (talk) 04:23, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

@Chad The Goatman: As I have mentioned the Mar Thoma Church is not part of the communion as on now. But communion is not the criteria of becoming part of a denomination but solely based on theology, characteristics and nature of the Church. Communion is something that develops over time through dialogues and discussions. For eg the beginning of the Oriental communion was solely between the Syriac Church and the Coptic Church. The development and acceptance of similar theology is the reason why Armenian, Ethiopian and Malankara Orthdox church is now part of the communion. Similary Mar Thoma Church has all the theological and characterwise notions to be an Oriental Orthodox Church.

Mar Thoma Church is a very open and ecumenical Church. Bishops including Paulose Mar Gregorios has spoken about the Mar Thoma Church as the Bird that flies ahead of its time. Yesterday the Oriental Orthdox Church met with the delegation of the Catholic Church to talk about sacramental communion. Both Churches have already come into terms based on some sacraments. Similarly Mar Thoma Church had come to terms with the High Church Anglicans 50 years back eventhough tue current state of the Anglican Church is worrying. Rome and Canterburry is in partial communion for High Church Anglicans as well.

We as a Christian community should come together based on our many similarities and not be offended by our small differences. MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 10:57, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like it's more Western Protestant than it is Eastern Orthodox. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Membership

Which source reports 15,00,000 members in Kerala and another 1,000,000 throughout the diaspora? The cited unverifiable sources reports 500,000 to 1 million. Hence added an additional reliable and verifiable source based on 2011 Indian census (http://www.cds.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/WP468.pdf), which reports 405,000 members of this church in Kerala. Taking into account all 3 sources, approximated the membership to 700,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monitor37 (talk • contribs) 08:01, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Above concern has since been updated, citing a credible source (https://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/mar-thoma-syrian-church-of-malabar). The current count is also a realistic extrapolation of the previous estimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Streetsoda (talk • contribs) 17:16, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jacobite Syrian Christian Church which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:46, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Correct classification is Reformed Protestant Syrian Christian (Someone please now help me to ending this dumb edit war)

Ever since there were few anonymous users and then later a user named "Chandy of Pakalomattom" has continuously making repeating undoing my and other users edits, over a small trivial–and seemly verified by the Church itself–detail to making them seemly offended for no stupid reason, despite its literally provided by both the Church official website and the article's history section about the Church's current identity, along seemly backing up my point. Chad The Goatman (talk) 19:48, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Dear Chad The Goatman pls dont carried away by the word reformation. It has nothing to do with the reformation of European churches their theology or protestant movements. In 18 th century the malankara church witnessed a reformation cycle and redeemed many practices that was negated in bible and brought in the church due to the synod of Diamper by portugeese jesuits.

Pls be kind and polite in your words(Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 07:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC))

  • There is no such thing as Reformed and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox. It is one or the other, really. For a more in-depth coverage on this, see Talk:Protestant Eastern Christianity. Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans maintained Roman episcopacy as well as many liturgical elements; yet their correct classification is Protestant and not 'Reformed Catholic'. Protestantism is a large category, comprised of denominations with diverse polities, beliefs, traditions, practices and liturgies. They also significantly vary with regards to their positions on the authority of the various historic ecumenical councils. Despite these, they are on the whole based on the Five solae, most importantly the first one Sola scriptura. It is clear from this article's sources that the concept of "restoration of the church to its original purity, based on the bible", which the founders of the Mar Thoma Church tried to achieve, was originally proposed by Anglican priest Claudius Buchanan and the rest of the English missionaries. For example, check Stephen Neill (2002) published by CUP, pages 236 to 254. The same was the underlying idea of the Protestant Reformation, particularly the English Reformation. Classifying denominations as Catholic, Protestant and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox is a fairly easy job. The Mar Thoma Church neatly fits, only under the Protestant category. Macinderum (talk) 07:07, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Somewhat yep, and the only reason why I can't taking him or it (and its possible alternative accounts like one below of us) seriously, was of how it can't accept face value of the sources are just literally favoring to your side, regardless how they keep claiming they aren't a unique type of Syrian Christian who is 'reforming' itself with adopting Anglican/Protestant elements, along with origin with their only recorded splinter Syrian Christian-based Evangelical Church; and they're grammar is just horrible than my's due of all them are just very limited and bad fluent English writers, despite being historically occupied by the British Empire for four generations. Chad The Goatman (talk) 13:01, 20 September 2019 (UTC)


  • Dear Macinderum
Please refer the the dictionary of syriac Christianity rf given [1] Anglicans and scandavian churches comes under the category of protestant church because the protested against the roman pontiff aka Pope. Their guiding principles were that of lutheran and other western teachings. which had a direct relationship to counter the teachings of roman church.
Marthoma church draws inspiration of faith and issues of faith from Holy bible. but it is not sola scriptura.. The christology and faith formulation of trinity is based only on the first three ecumenical synods without the error of Mar Nestor and Monophysitism. Many practices faith that the church follow donot have base in bible. The nature of church is based on the christology and trinity faith formulation it follows. The classification of western ,eastern and oriental orthodox is on the christology and trinity of the church. Please read history of Malankara Claudious buchanan cane to Malankara much before and his role is in printing the Syriac peshito bible to Malayalam. You may be hinting of benjamin bailey , peet etc. Even they worked in Malankara seminary . Pls read the Mavelikara Padiyola. The world council of churches have already stated that Marthoma church cannot be classified in any of the existing groups however it is a BRIDGE CHURCH .which connects the Traditions of East to Reformation spirit of West.
My doubt which category do CHURCH OF EAST or nestorian church belong to IN YOUR CLASSIFICATION OF THOSE MENTIONED ABOVE.Marthomakunju (talk) 10:47, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Did Methodists, Baptists, Adventists and Restorationists protest against the Pope? We have episcopal Anglicans and Lutherans who generally acknowledge the first seven ecumenical councils. Protestants with congregationalist polity are quite lax in this regard; acceptance of one or more councils is voluntary and they reject anything that is perceived unbiblical. Many evangelicals and pentecostals go so far as to even condemn the councils. There are many Protestants who reject that title and just refers to themselves as Christians. Yet, for the purpose of categorization, they are all classified Protestants. Denominations which hold the bible above all else, as the ultimate authority on faith, doctrines, practice etc, are generally classified Protestant. And the Mar Thoma church, considering the fact that it emerged out of a reformation of Oriental Orthodoxy, drawing inspiration and ideas from Anglicans, in an attempt to ' restore ' the church based on the bible, surely is Protestant. The church's website lists " the primacy of the Word of God " among the most important principles that guided the reformation (http://marthoma.in/the-church/heritage/). There are practices perceived as unbiblical by others, in all Christian denominations. I checked dictionary page you cited. It underscores the initial Anglican influence, the reformed nature of the Mar Thoma church and the preservation of several eastern elements. But mentioning it as a reformed church in Oriental Orthodox tradition is absurd and far from the truth. There the writer’s views appears conflicting and contradictory; perhaps wrong choice of words. The terms 'Orthodox' and 'Reformed' does not go together from a religious standpoint, whereas 'Protestant' and 'Reformed' are almost synonymous. The WCC too describes the Mar Thoma church as a reformed church with eastern characteristics, but does not list it with Oriental Orthodox churches (https://www.oikoumene.org/en/church-families/orthodox-churches-oriental). Even the official website of the Mar Thoma church does not claim that it is Orthodox. Orthodoxy is represented almost entirely by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox communions. Reliable sources on Oriental Orthodoxy does not even make a passing mention of the Mar Thoma church.[2][3][4] What has the Nestorian Church of the East got to do with the Reformed Mar Thoma denomination that you should bring it here? Let's not digress. Macinderum (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Dear Macinderum... What your problem. Have you ever come to any Marthoma Church? If you want to include or classify Marthoma church as protestant . Please come up with the theology or practices that Marthoma church has atleast ? We may discuss on that. I have given the references of The Dictionary of syriac heritage. Reformation word used in the church history has misguided you to protestest reformation of Europe which has nothing to do with Malankara. The equivalent word for Reformation in Malayalam is cleansing. May be some beliefs of Marthoma church have resemblances to protestant practices like intercession to saints and abhorrence of prayers at graves for departed. But that is not the only part of faith . There are 98 percentage of other things.

Malabar Independent Syrian Church also follows the Same Oriental Orthodox faith. But they are not included in the group of Oriental Orthodox churches.

Your Example of Anabaptist and other donot stand as they splinter from already existed protestant churches and their theology is derived from the protestant churches and teachers.

Since you want to end edit war .. which you have stated . You may kindly come up with sources of theology of Marthoma church that shows it is Protestant .(Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 13:42, 20 September 2019 (UTC))

  • Perhaps you should ask yourself the question with which you started your above post. The contributor who edited this page immediately before you, changed the section title and that wasn't me. And yes Chandy of Pakalomattom, you did give the dictionary of Syriac heritage as reference, though you logged in as Marthomakunju to add it above. For good reason, I presume that your next response would be as "Sebin Prasad Cheriyan Marvallill" or some anonymous. I always knew that it was the same individual using different user id's and ip's. I had mentioned it in Talk:Protestant Eastern Christianity and Chad The Goatman had complained about it, to no avail. I guess, it is one inherent disadvantage of any Wiki that good faith contributors would have to endure complete crooks, every now and then. Macinderum (talk) 18:42, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Dear Macinderum. You are moving away from core issue of discussion. We may discuss on the theology of marthoma church which is under consideration. Macinderum is also a anonymous name used only for disruptive edits for Marthoma church related pages and what is your good faith. And your integrity is doubt full. The page was peaceful when you and chad wanted to classify marthoma church as protestant. (Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 23:14, 20 September 2019 (UTC))

Dear all. In malankara Syrian protestants are Central kerala diocese of Church of south India (CSI) and Saint Thomas Evangelical Church of India (STECI) . Both this churches have accepted the Protestant theology as core of the faith. The schism of 1962 and resulted in formation of STECI from martjoma church was whether to accept Core protestant theology or remain as Oriental orthodox with reformed beliefs in Prayers to departed and intercession to saints.Rev Fenvik who is a notable person in the field of syriac has done extensive research on this. If macinderum and Chad the Goatman wants to discus for knowledge enhancement we may discuss . And for your kind information sebin,chandy or edits from other to support the position of Martjoma church is not by a single person as alleged by Macinderum.(Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2019 (UTC))

Dear all. Please go through the link of WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCH (WCC) .https://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/mar-thoma-syrian-church-of-malabar

The Church family is kept blank. If WCC cannot group Marthoma church with the anglican churches or protestent or reformed churches why is Macinderum so eager in his self declaredvclassification of Protestent eastern Christianity which is created by him without any secondary citatations or evidences .(Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 23:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC))

References

  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ "Oriental Orthodoxy Origins, Oriental Orthodoxy History, Oriental Orthodoxy Beliefs". www.patheos.com.
  3. ^ "Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches".
  4. ^ "Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity". www.vatican.va.

Settle this down now!

@Chandy of Pakalomattom: @Chad The Goatman: please, discuss in this talk page to settle your edit war down. This means you will have to discuss wether you want it or not and behave in a WP:CIVIL manner to resolve this WP:DISPUTE. I hope your WP:NEGOTIATION will be fruitful! Veverve (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I completely understand, but the problem, that I already did this months ago, if looked up the previous requests, as I did get help, with one User from the Protestant Eastern Christian page, has backing me up, well somewhat. But when that user got there, it already screwing up that mis-claiming (revisioning???) the Churches' history by saying it doesn't effecting its identity, despite it clearly does, has by even its own words (reforming its Liturgy as the prime example), without see the irony. Chad The Goatman (talk) 21:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
@Chad The Goatman: the user with whom you are having a dispute is obviously not an native speaker of English, nor has he/she a firm grasp on the English language. I understand you may have some problems which prevent you from writing clearly what you think. However, since said user does not master English at an advanced level, I strongly advise you to try your best to write in proper English.
A similar advice goes for @Chandy of Pakalomattom: please try your best to write in proper English.
Veverve (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
I may suspected, but if that's user does have a linguistic problem; then somehow he/she creating their native name into English into its account, as a weirdly attempted to doing this worthless editing war. Then I trying of believing it. Chad The Goatman (talk) 00:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Protestant Oriental?

1)Which characteristic, theology or tradition of the Mar Thoma Church is protestant? Let me guess, the page is managed by an Indian Orthodox member who is affected by superiority complex?

2) Why is it written that Abraham Malpan taught in Malankara Orthodox Seminary? Please rectify it as Pazhaya seminary.

3) Please do rectify it as early as possible. We have decided to inform the Church heads on the spreading of false image about an institution, cyber case shall be registered otherwise. MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 19:20, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

@MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani: please see those two previous discussions: here, and here. Veverve (talk) 19:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I maybe (but likely not obliviously, or not as I becoming a bit paranoid) think is the same User, who refused to talk everyone, that much for months. Chad The Goatman (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Why Mar Thoma belongs to the Oriental Orthdox Family

@veverve I read through the conversations. It might be because I'm new to this part of wikipedia I did not quite get who edidted the Mar Thoma Church as a protestant Church.

Let me make my observations. 1)Mar Thoma Church in an Oriental Orthodox Church. Yes I agree that Mar Thoma Church is not part of the communion but similarly to the British Orthodox or the Thoziyoor Church, Mar Thoma Church belongs to the wider family of Oriental Orthodox Churches.

2) All theology of the Mar Thoma Church is based on the teachings of the first 3 ecumenical councils only.

3) Mar Thoma Church can be considered Orthodox because the teachings are based on the Scriptures and the writings of the Church Fathers in the first 200 years. This is a legal statement made by Juhanon Mar Thoma in the Supreme court of India. Time and time again Mar Thoma bishops have upholded that Mar Thoma Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church in their writings.

4) Mar Thoma Church is a reformed Church as well. Reformed not in a Protestant sense but Reformed back into Orthodoxy based on the scriptures and the writinngs of the early Church Fathers. The intercession of saints and prayer for induvidual dead is not seen in the Mar Thoma Church due to this particular season.

5) If it is still hard for you to accept that Mar Thoma is an Orthdoox Church, you can write it as Eastern and Reformed. Reformation is a continuos process part of every Church. Refer (2nd Vatican Council) and (Reformation in the Malankara Orthdox Church by Paulose Mar Gregorios). MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani: to ping, you must use {{Ping|Veverve}}
the discussion is between Chandy of Pakalomattom and Chad The Goatman. Chad The Goatman claims the MTSC is protestant.
@Chandy of Pakalomattom:, @Chad The Goatman:, @MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani:, @Macinderum: the other discussions have been made sub-part of the central discussion. Veverve (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Dude, I clearly didn't say or even heavily implying they're fully or Western Christian-like Protestant AT ALL, but rather they're semi-Eastern Christian with some or maybe more Protestant elements, based on their later history as strongly implies by being under the British Empire's influence in their Church's identity, and their Communion with the Anglican faith given a clear hint that a Eastern Christian denomination will rarely developing communion relationship with a Western Christian denomination, like again with these two Churches?
And @MalankaraSuriyaniNazrani:, tell me how they're truly [Independent] Oriental Orthodox Church, when they clearly AREN'T have communion with the 'Canonical' Oriental Orthodox Churches like Coptic Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic Churches for an example, but instead with a Communion with a Western Christian Church the Anglican faith; with real and noble primary or secondary sources??? Chad The Goatman (talk) 22:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Sources prove that this is a (Protestant) Reformed Eastern denomination

Reliable and verifiable sources makes it abundantly clear that the Mar thoma church is a Reformed (Protestant) Eastern episcopal denomination which resulted from an Anglican inspired nineteenth century reformation of the old Syriac Orthodox Church in south India. It would also appear that just as Anglicans retained Roman episcopacy and some catholic practices after the English Reformation, the Marthoma denomination too, after their reformation, retained oriental episcopacy and some practices. The Gorgias Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Syriac Heritage confirms that the “ Mar Thoma church is that section of the non-Roman St. Thomas Christians which has undertaken a degree of liturgical and doctrinal reform under the influence of Church of England missionaries in the 19th cent. ” It could be seen that this wasn't a reformation back to Orthodoxy as some members of this denomination ridiculously claim. That would imply that the canonically valid and quintessentially Oriental Orthodox Antiochian Church wasn’t ‘orthodox enough’. The dictionary makes it absolutely clear that, “ the agenda of the reform was very much determined by the issues which had dominated the English Reformation in the 16th cent. ” The source also lists the specific omissions and amendments to the liturgy while attesting the oriental (ie. eastern) form of worship, mostly in the local vernacular (https://gedsh.bethmardutho.org/Mar-Thoma-Syrian-Church-Malankara). The official website of the Mar thoma church does not make any claim that it is an Orthodox church but declares that it “ accepts Holy Bible as the basis for all matters of faith and doctrine ” and defines itself as ‘ biblical in faith ’ (sola scriptura) and ‘ oriental in worship ’. It also says that this denomination does not hold the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox view of their clergy being the sole custodians of grace but rather emphasizes the protestant teachings of “ sole mediation of Christ, importance of laity and priesthood of all believers. ” Describing its heritage it is mentioned that the reformers who founded this denomination maintained close ties to the English missionaries and imbibed the ideas of the Protestant reformation from them (Refer http://marthoma.in/the-church/overview/ and http://marthoma.in/the-church/heritage/). The Mar thoma church’s felicitation address to the Archbishop of Canterbury, published in the church’s own website is even more revealing in this regard where it reads, “ The impetus for the Reformation process in the Malankara Syrian Church is justifiably sourced to the Mission of Help from the Anglican Church. The Anglican Church generously gave us Friendship, Fellowship and Fraternity. The Missionaries sent by the Anglican Church became the leaven that enlivened and accelerated the Reformation process in this ancient Church. The Open Bible was at once an opportunity and a challenge. A large section of the Clergy and the Laity welcomed the inflow of new concepts and ideas, with open arms. Thus was initiated a process of purification, transformation and modernization in the Church. It was also a process of cleansing and restoration. We take pride in the fact that while we retained all that was good in our heritage, we welcomed and accepted much of what was offered by the Missionaries. Be it an accident of history or Grace of God, or both, the much needed fillip, stimuli, came to us through the Anglican Church. ” (http://marthoma.in/felicitation-address-at-the-reception-to-his-grace-the-most-rev-dr-rowan-williams/). The claim that the reformation of a typical Oriental Orthodox church in Anglican lines resulted in an even more ‘orthodox’ church is totally illogical and completely devoid of common sense. Next time when someone reiterates such a claim, it would be nice to see some solid, irrefutable sources backing it. Ample sources on oriental orthodoxy have already been cited above which does not acknowledge or make any reference to the Mar thoma church. The Mar thoma denomination cannot be compared to the non-canonical Orthodox churches like the British Orthodox Church which follows the Orthodox faith in its fullness and has been in and out of communion with the canonical churches. @Veverve: and @Chad The Goatman:, is it possible to get wider participation to this? End of the day, I guess sources must be accepted at face value.Macinderum (talk) 09:34, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the very late respond, but thanks for helping me on this. Chad The Goatman (talk) 21:41, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Motion to archive

Wikipedia guidelines suggest talk pages to be archived when it exceeds 75,000 bytes. This page at the moment is at 179,000 bytes and is rather difficult to navigate. Last archive was performed back in 2012. I suggest we move the current contents excluding any active threads to a second archive. Ideally, we would want this process to be automated. Streetsoda (talk) 16:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Currently we have an archive file at Talk:Mar Thoma Syrian Church/Archive 1 which runs from the beginning into 2011. I propose that we archive all the later posts up through 5 July 2016 by adding them to Archive 1. This will cut the size of the talk page down by 50% or more. Nothing will be lost, since the old posts will still be accessible. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Support, but in a new Talk:Mar Thoma Syrian Church/Archive 2 Veverve (talk) 17:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
@EdJohnston: I did it. Veverve (talk) 17:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Veverve, thanks for taking care of this. EdJohnston (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2020

Change Metropolitan from "TBD" to "Sede Vacante" or to "The Chair of Mar Thoma is vacant" George.m.cyril (talk) 18:24, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Elizium23 (talk) 18:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Why is it called as Protestant Oriental, it can be called as reformed Oriental but not protestant.

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