Talk:Locomotives of the Caledonian Railway

Creation

Article created after discussion at Talk:Locomotives of the London, Midland and Scottish Railway. Biscuittin (talk) 19:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Classification

Following comments at various class-specific talk pages, such as Talk:Caledonian Railway 670 Class

• Casserley, H.C.; Johnston, Stuart W. (1974) [1966]. Locomotives at the Grouping 3: London Midland and Scottish. Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0-7110-0554-0.
• Cornwell, H.J. Campbell (1974). Forty Years of Caledonian Locomotives 1882-1922. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. ISBN 0-7053-6533-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: checksum (help)
• Baxter, Bertram (1984). Baxter, David (ed.). British Locomotive Catalogue 1825-1923, volume 4: Scottish and remaining English Companies in the LMS Group. Ashbourne: Moorland Publishing.

0-6-0

Caledonian numbers are as at Grouping, and are in order of LMS numbers, which was not necessarily the order of building. Many of the Drummond 'Jumbo' Class had been renumbered.

LMS	Caledonian	Casserley & Johnston	Cornwell	Baxter
17230-392	199, 200-2/56-64, 334-80, 403/4/6-15, 517-26/39-63, 680-99, 700-10, 1259/60/94, 1310/5/8/9/23/35/7/65/7/74, 1403, 1517/48/9/53/8, 1680/2, 1704/6-8 (not in order)	(pp. 176-7) Drummond 'Jumbo' Class 1883-97	(pp. 189-190) Class 294	(pp. 77-82) Drummond 294 class 1883-95
17393-473	711-20/36-60, 329-33, 564-82/8-99, 761-5, 583-7		(pp. 190-1) Class 711	(pp. 92-94) McIntosh 711 class 1895-97
17550-628	812-878, 282-93	(p. 179) McIntosh '812' Class 1899-1909	(p. 191) Class 812	(pp. 94-95) McIntosh 812 class 1899-1900
17629-45	652-9/62-5, 325-8, 661		(p. 191) Class 652	(pp. 95-96) McIntosh 652 class 1908-09
17646-9	30-33	(p. 179) McIntosh '30' Class 1912	(p. 191) Class 30	(p. 96) McIntosh 30 class 1912
17650-92	294-324, 280/1, 670-9	(p. 180) Pickersgill 1918-20	(p. 191) Class 300	(pp. 103-105) Pickersgill 300 class 1918-20

--Redrose64 (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

My proposals

• LMS 17650-82 Move from 294 Class to 300 Class
• LMS 17683-92 Redirect from 670 Class to 300 Class
• LMS 17230-392 Move from 259 Class to 294 Class
• LMS 17393-473 Redirect from 711 Class to 294 Class
• LMS 17550-628 Leave as 812 Class
• LMS 17629-45 Redirect from 652 Class to 812 Class
• LMS 17646-9 Redirect from 30 Class to 812 Class

Is this OK? Biscuittin (talk) 07:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

If two or three series that are recognised as different classes by more than one author, we should either keep them separate, or combine them under a name which does not imply that they were the same class. See for example NBR 224 Class and NBR 420 Class; both of these are redirects to the same article, which gives both classes in its name.

Under that plan, using your grouping, we would have three articles: Caledonian Railway 294 and 711 Classes; Caledonian Railway 812, 652 and 30 Classes; Caledonian Railway 300 Class. We would also need redirects to the first one from: Caledonian Railway 294 Class and Caledonian Railway 711 Class, also redirects to the second one from Caledonian Railway 812 Class, Caledonian Railway 652 Class and Caledonian Railway 30 Class.

But I don't think that the 30 Class should be grouped with the 812 and 652 Classes: as Cornwell states (p. 144): "Extension of superheating to goods classes began in 1912 when four 0-6-0s were constructed at St Rollox ... These engines were based on the 652 Class but their boilers were pitched 6 in higher and contained a 21-element Schmidt superheater with long return loops." He then goes on to show that these four were a direct predecessor of the 34 Class 2-6-0, the 179 Class 4-6-0 and the 184 Class 4-6-0. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Revised proposals

New articles:

• Caledonian Railway 294 and 711 Classes
• Caledonian Railway 812 and 652 Classes
• Caledonian Railway 30 Class
• Caledonian Railway 300 Class (over redirect)

Do you agree? Biscuittin (talk) 18:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, these seem fine. We can accomplish most of it with three page moves.

• Move Caledonian Railway 259 Class to Caledonian Railway 294 and 711 Classes; create one redirect Caledonian Railway 711 Class
• Move Caledonian Railway 812 Class to Caledonian Railway 812 and 652 Classes; amend existing redirect Caledonian Railway 652 Class to point at the new page name
• Move Caledonian Railway 294 Class to Caledonian Railway 300 Class - although there is a redirect, this won't be a problem because the redirect has no significant history.
• Find all links to Caledonian Railway 294 Class and check what they refer to. If the Pickersgill locos, amend to 300 Class; if the Drummond locos, leave alone.
• Once those links have been checked, the redirect Caledonian Railway 294 Class can be amended to point at Caledonian Railway 294 and 711 Classes.

--Redrose64 (talk) 23:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I have made a start. What about Caledonian Railway 670 Class? Is this not regarded as a separate class? Biscuittin (talk) 09:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

All done, except query about 670 Class still outstanding. Biscuittin (talk) 14:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I can't find any books that segregate BR 57684-57691 (LMS 17684-17691; Cal 671-678) from BR 57650-83/92 (LMS 17650-83/92; Cal. 294-324, 280/1, 670/9). Casserley & Johnston - the only printed source which is given on our article Caledonian Railway 670 Class - show no variation within the entire group of 43 locos BR 57650-92. However, both Baxter and Cornwell record that the first twelve (CR 300-311) had steel fireboxes, the remainder copper; and that the last twelve (CR 280/1, 670-9 - i.e. including the eight under discussion) had slide valves instead of piston valves - but both authors group all 43 together as the 300 class. I think that we should do the same. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

For now, I have redirected 670 Class to 300 Class. However, I see there was a 670 Class 0-4-2 (LMS 17000 to 17020) so I could create an article for it. Could you please check that it has been correctly classified before I create the article? Biscuittin (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes; this is the 0-4-2 I mentioned at Talk:Caledonian Railway 670 Class#Proposed merger. I've dropped some notes at Talk:Caledonian Railway 670 Class#The Brittain 0-4-2, since I don't see a need for an 0-4-2 subsection on this page (none of Brittain's successors built any 0-4-2, and no earlier locos made it to the LMS). --Redrose64 (talk) 19:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

0-4-4T

As with the 0-6-0, Caledonian numbers are as at Grouping, and are in order of LMS numbers, which was not necessarily the order of building.

LMS	Caledonian	Casserley & Johnston	Cornwell	Baxter
15100-14	1172/4/5/7/8, 1229, 1222-4/7, 190, 1191-4	(pp. 155-6) Drummond 1884-91	(p. 192) Class 171	(pp. 74-75) Drummond 171 class 1884-91
15115-24	19-28	(p. 156) McIntosh 1895	(p. 193) Class 19	(pp. 83-84) Lambie 19 class 1895
15125-36	13-18, 98-103	(pp. 156-7) McIntosh 1897-1900	(p. 193) Class 92	(pp. 87-88) McIntosh 92 class 1897
15137-46	879-886, 437/8		(p. 193) Class 879	(p. 88) McIntosh 879 class 1900
15147-58	104-111, 167-70	(p. 157) McIntosh 'Balerno' Class 1899	(p. 193) Class 104	(p. 88) McIntosh 104 class 1899
15159-226	112/25-7/51-8/60/4, 222-31, 419/20-4/7-9/39-70/3, 660/6 (not in order)	(pp. 157-8) McIntosh 1900-14	(p. 193) Class 439	(pp. 88-90, 102) McIntosh/Pickersgill 439 class 1900-22
15227-36	159/61-3, 418/25/6/30/5/6	(p. 158) McIntosh/Pickersgill 1915-22
15237-40	431-4	(pp. 158-9) McIntosh/Pickersgill 1922/5	(p. 193) Class 431	(p. 102) Pickersgill 431 class 1922/5
15260-9	-		-

--Redrose64 (talk) 16:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Withdrawals

I think we should add withdraw dates to all of locomotive classes on this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.84.89.46 (talk) 20:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)