Talk:List of oldest banks in continuous operation

BANK OF NAPLES

Banco di Napoli was founded in 1539; its brand still exists; it also was the Mint of the newly formed Kingdom of Italy till the beginning of Fascism era; you changed the rules in this page in order to avoid Bank of Naples. The "Federico II" University in Naples is the first modern public university (I don't mention academies in the ancient times) not linked with any religious power; Bologna University may be the first modern university in Europe, linked to the Church, not in the world since Fes and Cairo Universities were founded before this. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A TEXT AGAINST ITALY (I MEAN SOUTHERN ITALY, WHERE THE NAME ITALY WAS FIRS USED); AS THE BASKS, THE KURDS, THE MAPUCHES, THE INUITS, THE AMAZONS AND SO ON WE GOT USED TO IT HOWEVER. SO JUST LEAVE YOUR STUPID BANKS FROM TUSCANY AND GERMANY BEEN THE OLDEST WITH NO MENTION OF NAPLES BANK. WE TRULY KNOW GERMAN MAFIA (BANKS, PHARMACEUTICS) IS REALLY MUCH STRONGER THAN SOUTHERN ITALIAN ONE --AlexanderFreud (talk) 22:23, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Following the Nth cancellation of this << Not to mention Banco di Napoli, whose origins date back to 1539, when the first mount of piety was established in Naples; [1] the bank, absorbed by different entities between 2002-2017,[2] is still operating as subsidiary bank in southern Italy;[3] according to some scholars its origin may be daten back to 1463;[4][5] this would make the Bank of Naples the oldest bank in continuous operation till 2018, world-wide. >> I will do what in my power - in my free time - to report Wikipedia as a platform who discriminates Italian History and Identity. --AlexanderFreud (talk) 18:27, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The Banco di Napoli seems to be out of operation since Intesa Sanpaolo phased it out, including its brand.Eccekevin (talk) 22:21, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

This sounds like "native Americans seem to be died after Europeans killed all of them" after asking for mention them among the populations who inhabitate the American continent. AlexanderFreud (talk) 18:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Child & Co.

Child & Co. was acquired by the bank Glyn, Mills & Co. in 1923, and is now part of the Royal Bank of Scotland. It is authorised by the Financial Services Authority as a brand of the Royal Bank of Scotland. I.e. it does not have a separate banking license. The name over their door only says "RBS; The Royal Bank of Scotland". Child & Co. doesn't have its own website, and in fact, little information is found on the current bank on the Internet. It seems clear that Child & Co. no longer exists as an independent bank, only as a brand used by the major retail bank RBS. This list includes financial institutions in continous operation; in order to qualify an institution must have a banking license or equivalent and be operated independently. RBS calls the office referred to as Child & Co. their London Child & Co. branch, like any other branch. It seems clear that it doesn't qualify to be included. Vanasan (talk) 21:29, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope. You are using a criteria which is not relevant, your own, not even spelled out as a qualification in the article. NatWest and Coutts were acquired by RBS but they are still separate banks. Although the FSA Licence of RBS is extended to Child and Drummond (but not Holt's which is part of Drummond) RBS is clear that this is only because of the FSA Compensation Scheme, as they are only 'one branch banks'. This is not the same as a Branch Name as you suggest. Indeed if what you are saying is true then why was it that these two banks were specifically excluded from the RBS branches to be transferred to Santander ? (or anybody else who wants them, including the London RBS HQ at Threadneedle Street). They were also excluded from the rationalisation between NatWest Coutts on RBS acquisition. None of the bank literature states 'RBS Trading As Child & Co' which would mean it is just a branch name. The use of the EXPRESSION "London Child & Co. branch" is simply because RBS customers do not know it is an RBS associate, these two banks do not even sharestaff with the rest of the RBS branches network. Also when the English branches of RBS are sold off the ONLY RBS English presence will be Child and Drummond's because NatWest systems are not tied in to those of RBS.

You could use your criteria to pick through most of the other entries and you wouldn't have an article left. So REVERT please. Tony S 212.139.239.16 (talk) 12:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

NAUGHTY VANASAN !!!

Altering the Child & Co page to reflect your opinion above does not make it any more correct. Tony S 212.139.239.216 (talk) 11:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

The 3 oldest banks

The lede says: "...the list is topped by the only three banks founded in the 15th and 16th centuries, Monte dei Paschi di Siena, Banco di Napoli and Berenberg Bank. Monte dei Paschi di Siena was founded as a mount of piety in 1472 and today is one of Italy's largest retail banks, Banco di Napoli was founded as a mount of piety in 1539, while Berenberg Bank was founded as a merchant house in Hamburg in 1590...". However there are only two banks on the list which were founded in the 15th and 16th centuries. The Banco di Napoli is referred to in the lede as one of the three but has no listing anywhere else on the page. Clearly something is wrong but I am no expert about this (which is why I was looking at the article!) so someone with more knowledge needs to fix the problem. Either the Banco di Napoli no longer exists, in which case it needs to be removed from the lede, or it does still exist and therefore needs to be added to the list.FillsHerTease (talk) 03:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The Banco di Napoli was founded in 1861 and ceased being an independent bank in 2003, although it is still used as a brand by its new owners Intesa Sanpaolo. As with many other banks, it claims, dubiously, to have a much longer history than what is really the case. However, these claims do not fulfill the definition employed by this list, "financial institutions in continuous operation, operating with the same legal identity without interruption since their establishment until the present time." Vanasan (talk) 08:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Smith's Bank

An IP editor has repeated added an entry on Smith's Bank, which I have repeated reverted. The Smith's Bank article says:

• The bank lost its direction in the late nineteenth century and its solution was to merge with the Union Bank of London in 1902, forming the Union of London & Smith's Bank. This in turn was acquired by the National Provincial Bank in 1918, which merged into today's National Westminster Bank in 1970.

Smith's Bank does not qualify for this article. The lead sentence says this article is for "financial institutions in continuous operation, operating with the same legal identity without interruption since their establishment until the present time." Smith's Bank changed its legal identity in 1902, and it appears that "Smith's" disappeared from the name of the successor bank in 1918. This history is confirmed by a plaque on NatWest Bank in Nottingham (visible on Google Street View).

Please do not add Smith's Bank to the article without giving a justification here. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

What I've added was valid. The oldest bank of England was Smith's bank which was launched at the year 1658. Then, it's now as NatWest bank. So, can I add it more time and don't remove it. Please. [Comment copied from User talk:95.175.92.153]

This list is only for banks that are still in operation. Smiths bank is no longer in operation so it should not be included in this list. If we included every bank in the world that was founded before 1900 then the list would be unreasonably large. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

What I've added was valid. The very first bank of England was Smith's bank which was launched at 1658. Now, it's called NatWest bank. So, can you let me add it through the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_banks_in_continuous_operation? Please reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.175.92.153 (talk) 23:04, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, although now it's as NatWest bank and it's currently active. That's why I added Smith's bank as 1 of the oldest banks. Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.175.92.153 (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the article says:

• This list of the oldest banks includes financial institutions in continuous operation, operating with the same legal identity without interruption since their establishment until the present time.

This is reinforced by the in-source comment:

• INCLUSION CRITERIA, PLEASE READ BEFORE ADDING ANY BANKS: This list includes the oldest banks in CONTINUOUS operation, operating with the same legal identity as independent companies and usually a form of the same name without interruption since their establishment. It does not include banks founded in 1987 (or later) which claim to be successors to banks that became defunct centuries earlier. Also, it does not include mere brand names of past banks that no longer exist as legal entities.

Smiths Bank does not qualify because changed its legal identity when it was acquired by Union Bank of London in 1902. That said, there are several other banks in the list that would not pass this test, including Child & Co., Coutts & Co., Drummonds Bank, Royal Bank of Scotland and Ulster Bank (all parts of the NatWest Group), but at least these are still operating as separate businesses under their original names. The Smith's Bank building in Nottingham is a branch of NatWest.

You could propose a change to the inclusion criteria, but if we included every old bank that has since been taken over then the list would become too large to be useful. Also, in earlier periods it is unclear what should be classified as a bank, see History of banking. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Don't remove Snith's bank which was established at 1658. Because, it's the oldest bank of England. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.175.92.153 (talk) 03:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

You are wrong. Smith's Bank is not the oldest bank in England because it is no longer a bank. It may have been the earliest-established bank in England, but that is a different thing, and is not what the article is about. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Sanpaolo

Intesa Sanpaolo clearly fits the definition, since it has been functioning uninterruptly since 1563 (and the majority stakeholder, the Compagnia di San Paolo, has been the same since 1563 and it still today). It changed name twice, in 1998 and in 2007, but they all were siilar names and reflected the unbroken legal entity. Istituto Bancario San Paolo di Torino (1563) -> Sanpaolo IMI (1998) -> Intesa Sanpaolo (2007). It did expand by mergers and changed its name, but it never ceased to exist and was the same legal entity, albeit enlarged. This is true for all other banks on the list, including Berenberg Bank who last changed its name in 1791 when a new partners merged into the group and the MOnte dei Paschi die Siena also change, as pointed out by the lede. I don't think the lede should be altered tho, because it is not older than Monte de Paschi di Siena, and it is not a merchant bank.Eccekevin (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Intesa Sanpaolo, the large bank that is the result of countless mergers, was founded in 2007, certainly from a legal perspective and reasonably from a historical perspective, and does not belong in this list, per the long-standing criteria used here. It is one of countless banks (and other companies) merely claiming/invoking the history of some other, now defunct, much smaller company that it claims as one of many, much smaller predecessors and that makes up a miniscule part of its history. If we were to include companies merely invoking the history of another company in such a way, based on a tenuous connection via endless mergers, we would have to include most banks in this list, instead of the ones that have actually operated as the same company in a meaningful way. This is not a matter of changing names (actually merely amending them) but being the same company. It is surely not comparable to Berenberg amending its name to also include the name of the owner's son-in-law in the 18th century (which is how partnerships traditionally work), or similar name changes. In the past there have been many attempts to add new banks that use the history of some older bank to this list, including various Italian ones (including Intesa Sanpaolo via a dubious claim based on the history of the former Banco di Napoli) and the German Fürst Fugger Privatbank (founded as Friedl & Dumler GmbH in 1954, and changed its name to Fürst Fugger Privatbank in 1994 to invoke the history of the Fugger company that has been defunct for centuries). As I explained years ago, As with many other banks, it claims, dubiously, to have a much longer history than what is really the case. However, these claims do not fulfill the definition employed by this list, "financial institutions in continuous operation, operating with the same legal identity without interruption since their establishment until the present time." The difference between Intesa Sanpaolo and Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena is that the the latter is widely described as the world's oldest bank by third-party sources, and that the original company appears to be its primary predecessor or "surviving company" in past mergers. None of the claimed old predecessors of Intesa Sanpaolo (Banco di Napoli or any of the others) can reasonably be described as primary predecessors or surviving companies, the current large bank is both practically and legally a new company and a product of the modern era. --Vanasan (talk) 22:18, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

That's absolutely not the case. The predecessor of Sanpaolo shares its same primary shareholder (Compagnia di San Paolo, same primary sharejholder since 1563) and there is uninterrupted legal entity. It changed name only twice, in 1998 and 2007, but it was the same bank. Istituto Bancario San Paolo di Torino (1563) -> Sanpaolo IMI (1998) -> Intesa Sanpaolo (2007). Eccekevin (talk) 20:32, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Given that SanPaolo fits all requirements, I will re-add it unless there is a reason why it does not fit. It has the same legal identity (the same shareholder even from 1563), the name is also quite similar (Berenberg Bank also changed itself, most recently to Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. Kommanditgesellschaft), and it has never ceased operating. It is a direct and unbroken link: Istituto Bancario San Paolo di Torino (1563) -> Sanpaolo IMI (1998) -> Intesa Sanpaolo (2007). Eccekevin (talk) 02:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Child & co. no longer extant

As of June 2022, the last branch of Child & co. has been closed. As such, it needs to be removed from the list Fones4jenke (talk) 14:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)