Talk:List of Irish Americans/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

STUPID NAME CHANGE

What if you were born in Ireland but become an American citizen? Should you be removed from this list? 75.3.4.54 03:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

No, you're still an American of Irish descent (as well as birth). It's hard to define exactly what an "Irish-American" is, which is why I think it's ultimately a good idea to just change the title and make it a go-for-broke. This should happen to the other ethnicity-American lists soon as well. Mad Jack O'Lantern 04:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

If you are a citizen of Ireland, you are more than just descent. 75.3.4.54 18:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

INTERESTING ARCTLE FOR REVIEW

Red, White Blue and Green by Alison Benney

Is it for nostalgia, identity or just good craic that encourages so many Americans to claim Irish heritage? There are barely156,000 first-generation Irish residents in the US, yet the 2002 census reported over 34 million persons claiming Irish ancestry. It seems to be an issue of cultural distinctiveness, like identifying as an Italian American or Polish American. An "Irish Parisian" I spoke with wondered whether it is more a question of status on some ethnic social ladder, which would make quite a change from the attitudes of racism and prejudice that first greeted Irish immigrants until almost a hundred years ago. Back then solidarity was a matter of survival. After all, the first St. Patrick's Day parade took place not in Ireland, but in either 18th-century New York or Boston, depending on the source. In 1962, Chicago mayor Richard J. Daley (third-generation Irish) was the first to famously dye the city's river green for the occasion. Yet it wasn't until 1996 that Dublin organised its own parade. What in fact defines a "real" Irish American? A list of the renowned include Jesse James, Wild Bill Hickok, Mickey Rooney, Errol Flynn - but none of them had Irish roots, at least not within seven generations. Dancer Gene Kelly, on the other hand, moved with real Irish panache, thanks to his mother from Co. Clare; Grace Kelly's paternal roots were born in Co. Mayo; and Maureen O'Sullivan, Tarzan's unplain Jane and mother of Mia Farrow, was born in Boyle, Co. Roscommon, as was her childhood classmate, Vivien Leigh. Lassy Maureen O'Hara came from Ranelagh, near Dublin, and is especially cherished for her role in The Quiet Man - which may soon be dubbed into Gaelic for the first time. Her leading man, the legendary John Wayne, had 5th generation Irish blood, going back to ancestors born in Co. Antrim. In good diasporic synchronicity, Quiet Man director John Ford, born Sean Aloysius O'Feeney, also directed Stagecoach, the film that kick-started John Wayne's career. Despite the sometimes slight birthright, imagine the US without the irreplaceable talent of the Irish community. What would "White Christmas" have sounded like if Bing Crosby (great-grandfather from Co. Cork) hadn't made it a hit? Ditto for "Over the Rainbow", sung by Judy Garland (grandmother Fitzpatrick from Dublin), whose popularity in Ireland was so great that the song "It's a Great Day for the Irish" was written especially for her. In fact, "Danny Boy" was popularised first in vaudeville by Irish Americans, and Chauncy Olcott (Irish mother) wrote the classics, "My Wild Irish Rose", and "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling". And the list goes on, from Walt Disney (Irish grandmother), comedian Jackie Gleason and Art Carney (Irish parents), writers Eugene O'Neill (Kilkenny) and F. Scott Fitzgerald, to boxing champs Jack Dempsey (Kildare) and John L. Sullivan; from industrialists Henry Ford (Cork) and Louis H. Sullivan, father of the skyscraper, to the socialist and labour agitator who helped create the IWW, Mary Harris "Mother" Jones (born in Cork). Everyone has their favorites - these are just a shortlist from a period of only 50 years or so. As Merle Haggard (uber-American) wrote, some Americans are proud to be an Okie from Muskogee. But like 34 million others, I would love to be a Benney from Kilkenny.

TOP

That is an interesting article. Too bad the author asked but didn't answer what really makes an Irish-American. :) Mad Jack O'Lantern 07:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's ok to list Crosby and Garland twice, since they were so famous in both fields so how does one decide anyway? "People with distant Irish ancestry" actually shouldn't be there at all - there's no point to it anymore. There are just a few people left because I haven't sourced their section - politics or something - and re-added them there. Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Jacko - I agree double lsitings for people of exceptional noteriety in different fields can be warranted as researches may look in several fields and miss one. So those "distant" stragglers left will be worked into the main list?

Yup, they will be. I guess I'll source politicians/etc. tonight, so those listed will be added there or here. There's no real point to a "distant" section with the new page title. Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Page title

How about "List of Irish-Americans and Americans of Irish descent"? That could be a logical compromise. This should be done to other ethnicity pages as well, after consensus there. Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much point really, as all Irish Americans are of Irish descent. As I mentioned on the pump we can just put a note mentioning if they have specifically commented on their ancestry, or if they were actually born in Ireland mention that. Arniep 23:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that what you just suggested should be in effect for a page called "of Irish descent", or a page called "Irish Americans"? Mad Jack O'Lantern 01:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

We should keep it as descent as some believe that xxx American requires someone to have self identified. Arniep 01:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It should remain List of Irish-Americans unless the change is made for all ethnic groups. 75.3.4.54 21:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be maybe acceptable if there were two pages. List of Irish-Americans and then a page List of Americans with Irish ancestry. But not having a list for Irish-Americans, while having it for so many other ethnic groups seems rather descrinatory. Does wikipedia not consider Irish-Americans to exists? Does Wikipedia think Irish-Americans are not notable enough to have a list? Millions of Americans identify and are Irish-Americans and many of them are notable and they belong on their own list. They are not simply of Irish descent, they are Irish-Americans. If the title of this page is not changed back, then Irish-Americans do not belong on this list. 75.3.4.54 21:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem seems to be that certain people are claiming we can't put someone on a "List of Irish-Americans" (or a list of any other Americans, for that matter) without their being described as "Irish-Americans" or "Irish" in a source, as opposed to "Irish descent", "Irish parents", "born in Ireland". See the discussion here Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) - especially the comments by Grace Note at the bottom. This is obviously a problem that effects all Wikipedia lists by ethnicity (as for sources, that should be a norm, see List of Swiss Americans, List of Polish Americans, List of famous German-Americans and many others which are being sourced). Obviously some kind of solution needs to be devised, and it would be a solution that would effect all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia. So, user 75.3.4.54, I hope you will post your comments at that discussion I just linked to, because we need to figure out how to run all these lists once and for all. As for your comments on the politicians, I'll see if I can find a source that those few were born in Ireland, but can you link me to one of the history books so I can source the others to it? Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a sad day for the Irish when they are be seperated from all other ethnic groups in America. 75.3.4.54 00:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

New Qualification

I'm changing the qualifications for inclusion into this list. I am going to say the list is only for those native to Ireland, of significant Irish ancestry, who identify as Irish-American. I hope people can help me remove people from the list who do not qualify. And I hope someone will then move the list back to List of Irish-Americans. 75.3.4.54 01:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, I can move the page back in a few days if no one has objections. In that case, we should go with my proposed inclusion, and include people born in Ireland, 100% Irish, 50% Irish, and lesser but only if you can prove they identify as Irish (so Garland and her daughters would stay on the list). Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but you can't make your own criteria for who does and does not go on the list. The only way to make a list without names constantly being added or removed (as happened before) is to work by descent. Arniep 11:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

JackO - I agree with your conclusion - and beleive it to be logical - however I think identity is a very personal thing and people with remote ancestry can consider or identify with a particular background and therefore any "DOCUMENTAL" evidence of descent is acceptable BUT I do beleive that the real key to this list is that the "irishness" of individuals when in doubt, or if less than say 25% can and SHOULD only be based on some evidence that the indivudal identified, with or contributed in some way to Irish-American Culture during their lives. As I said before there is a lot of information on famous people in sources other than the net BUT if a link cannot be provided people should not enter or remove entries on their own whim - I guess you could add a category at the very end of the list for UNDOCUMENTABLE possibilities to be sourced by anyone who so desires - but this leaves it open to vanadlisation and silly entries - have you looked at list of Irish people lately? there is an Entry for someone listed as Veronica Fruiter or something like that as "Fucker" I did not remove it as I did not want to get into an "entry" war with some looney who can ultiamtely trash the list with bogus entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.253.32 (talk • contribs) 12:04, 23 April 2006

Sorry but this is non negotiable. Having a list based on such subjective criteria is original research and thus not compliant with policy here. The only way to make the list compliant is to make it verifiable that they have Irish ancestry. Arniep 12:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if we are in disagreement - nothing should be "subjective" you either have Irish ancestry or you do not - but it should be verifiable and I guess thats the point 86.12.253.32 13:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I was just saying that is subjective to say who does and who does not qualify as Irish American. The only way to avoid arguments is if a source says a person had an Irish ancestor then they should be accepted on this list. Arniep 13:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, you guys figure it out amongst yourselves. But I think it's a bad idea to move any more lists to these titles. Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If the list is just for Americans of Irish descent, then actual Irish-Americans do not qualify on the list, since they are not known as simply of Irish descent. I will remove all Irish-Americans from the list, since they do not qaulify for this list as it stands now. 75.3.4.54 20:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, I'll probably move the title back to Irish-Americans by the end of the evening. Just don't make any huge removals until then. Mad Jack O'Lantern 20:45, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we have a support/oppose thing instead? Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Come on you're just being childish now you know there are only 3 people paying attention to this page at the moment and we know their opinion already. Arniep 22:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's four people. Two people support the move, you don't, I'm not sure about the fourth one. In any case, I don't see much reason for keeping this title out of synch with other ethnicity-American lists. I seriously doubt anyone really cares if people like Vince Vaughn, Frankie Muniz, etc. are or are not listed on this list. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

This list and others like it are a tremendous public resource and used as a base by serious researchers that prepare pieces of work and studies of various types and degrees of importance or value, Irish national Identity is something that has a wider interest (albeit around St Patrick's Day) world over because the Irish are perhaps the most unique of national origins because they simply spread all over the world and have instilled a national identity that has remained with their "descendents" no matter how diluted the pedigree becomes and this is what is of interest to people who may be analysing this - theire are many millions of people world wide who have an "Irish" identity and Irish Americans in particular have raised this profile over the last century. The Irish flourished everywhere except in Ireland and today this list is important to that evidence. - You are right in that people such as Vince Vaughn and Frankie Muniz to name only 2 on the list are not currently very strategic entries as most serious people will skim through teh list lookign for a higher level of fame and most probably wouldn't recognise 75% of the names on this list but perhaps they may achieve a greater level of LASTING fame one day and that is when they will become more important to the list and the wider Irish identity issue but in the meantime the list does provide a valuable starting point and I am concerned that this bickering over Descent vs subjectivity will have negative results I am not overly concerned with its title. 86.12.253.32 23:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean that Muniz and Vaughn weren't famous enough, I just meant they are both barely Irish. Mad Jack O'Lantern 23:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Nicole Kidman

Sorry to have to do this, but the Nicoke Kidman source you gave[1] is a mirror website/copy of Wikipedia. It even credits Wikipedia at the bottom. We can't use ourselves as sources.... Mad Jack O'Lantern 22:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Jacko - no problem - take her out if you like until I find another source - I know what her ancestral background is and it is Irish/Scottish however the info is just not on any sites (yet) 86.12.253.32 16:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Time for a trim down cleanup?

This page is just huge. I think we should consider getting rid of non important categories and leaving the most famous people to keep people interested in the page. I mean does Irish "Fictional Characters" really need to be on the list? Just makes the page so much longer.

JackO - we are on the same wave-length - I think Fitional Characters could be a totally separate list - but was hestitant to remove it - I don't mind adding enetries that I know have a relevance to Irish American culture and to a degree fictional characters can have some value in demonstrating how deeply embedded irishness is within the American way of life - but only those that would be widely known and clearly irish. For the most part those listed merely have Irish names probably more out of coincidence than intent - for instance Scarlett O'Hara and Studs Lonigan characters are in well known and classic books and films (in my opinion only) are valued entries as their irishness is an integral part of their character and is mentioned throughout the story/book but for the most part the others provide no value to anything Irish - The Simpsons and Family Guy charaters I guess can be relevant in that there were episodes of those cartoons in which the story lines revolved around their "irish roots" no matter how offensive they may have been and thsoe cartoons are viewed worldwide. But I feel that Fitional Characters does not add any value to a List of irish Americans and although our individual interests and opinions are subjective and I recognise this, but I do feel that the only people that are worthy of this list are those that have contributed in a significant or "lasting" way to Irish or Irish American culture or to their field of expertise again in a significant way - I mean the majority of people on this list are unknown in the wider context and will not stand teh test of time and therefore have no value as entries. As the intention of such lists is to harness the contributions of the particular sector to demonstrate the talent, intelligence, charitable, technical abilities etc. etc. of the entrants - thus extolling the virtues of that group of people to list anyone otyher than highly accomplished people is useless as researchers will only go through the list picking out the handfull that have "lasting" fame and/or represent immediate recognition the rest are simply of no interest. In addition the majority of those names have no "history" to them and are merely a character's name that happens to be or sound "irish" but the story has no Irish content or relevance and do not have any sufficient information to create a Wikipedia article they shoudl be removed to another list or category or deleted altogether. 86.12.253.32 09:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

btw, that trimming poster wasn't me.... I have no real opinion on this... Mad Jack O'Lantern 18:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

sorry Jacko - I just think its nuts that names are added to a (specific) list without any relevance or supporting evidence or link to an article without any consideration being given to the remit or purpose of that list - e.g. what does the name/ character from the film Back to the Future have to do with Irish American culture - the film certainly has no relevance and makes no mention of anything Irish, the name is just a silly made-up name to suit the character. Fictional Charaters section should have the same guidelines attached to it as the rest of the list - e.g. some evidence that there is an Irish element to the character other than the name "sounds" or "maybe" is Irish.86.12.253.32 21:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right. Mad Jack O'Lantern 05:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

What fictional characters do you have a problem with? Most are noted as Irish in the TV show or film they were in. 75.3.4.54 18:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems that you are unfamiliar with the movies and TV shows that the fictional characters are coming from. If you have seen the Back the Future movies, you would obviously know how being Irish is relevent. 75.3.4.54 18:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I am unfamiliar with many of these fictional characters and fail to see what relevance they have to a a List of Irish Americans. I have seen Back to the Future films and do not recall any relevance to Irish American culture or to Marty McFly being Irish - but hey - maybe I missed it - I would be interested in what scene or scenes it is in - Katie Nolan the character from A Tree Grows in Brooklyn - a very beautiful story about an Irish/German immigrant American Family a beautiful story and a beautiful film with strong Irish content so although today maybe not a well known character the story and film are classic but the same strong Irish connection is missing from many of the Fictional entries and I do beleive they have only been added because the name sounds Irish or it is assumed that it is Irish. The film Ladder 49 has a strong Irish American theme running through it as does the film Only the Lonely - why not add Danny Muldoon and Rose Muldoon from that film and how about the guy from Car 54 he was Muldoon too - and lets not forget Mr Magoo or how about all the Bundys from Married With Children - they must be Irish American with that name - what I am saying is that the fictional character list can be endless without some guidelines how about Rosie O'Grady and Nellie Kelly song heroines - oh yes and Lucy Ricardo she had to be Irish after all she was Lucy McGilacuddy before she married Ricky Ricardo , where does it end? 86.12.253.32 22:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You must have missed Back to the Future III. The fact is you are unfamiliar with the characters on the list, so why are you even discussing it? You are now mentioning characters who aren't even on the list. The only character on the list you actually said you have a problem with is Marty McFly, but if you saw Back to the Future III, you would understand why he is on the list.

Just don't complain about something when you don't know about it. 75.3.4.54 23:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Nearly every character on the list was referenced as being Irish and has distinct Irish characteristics. If you don't even know what the stories are about, it is just plain silly for you to challenge them. 75.3.4.54 23:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay so back to the Future 3 does have an element where Marty McFly goes back in time and meets his ‘Oirish’ ancestors – therefore the assumption from that can be that he is Irish American – and whilst I may not be overly familiar with some of the names added and their stories, I agree that if the connection is evidenced it is acceptable but I will not be adding the characters of the film High Spirits or the Irish American character that was in “The Field”, or Cardinal Fermoyle from the best selling book and classic film “The Cardinal” or the “Captains and Kings” characters all of which have clear Irish American identity that is a strong part of the character's development simply because most people will not have a clue to who they are and it is as simple as that. . I am concerned that the Fictional Characters will overtake real people – the list is a useful source of information and (well known) Fictional Characters do have a place within the wider concept of “Irish American Culture” and how it has evolved over the years – I simply feel that the potential to have a list that will become virtually unmanageable due to the sheer volume of entries that can be potentially added will diminish the value of the information and list in general – but I guess that’s not for me to worry about . I could easily add 40 names to this list right now without much effort and also can link them to evidence to demonstrate the connection but feel that the information is of no value unless the entry has some long-term lasting power but accept that this is only my own opinion and editors can do as they please.145.229.156.40 10:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In the first Back to the Future, Biff calls George McFly an "Irish bug". 75.3.4.54 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

This list

Wouldn't it be much nicer to make this list "Irish-Americans" again, and include people who've been identified explicitly as "Irish-Americans" or "Irish" in a reliable source? (i.e. instead of "Irish descent", "Irish grandmother", etc.) Strictly following Wikipedia policy that way would neatly clean up this list and remove all the random people who have no connection to Irishness except a distant ancestor. What is the encyclopedic value? Most of the people who are relevantly Irish-American have been described as such (i.e. even Judy Garland and her daughters, who have more distant ancestry but have been described - or described themselves - as Irish). I've seen this brought up before, so how about it? This is being done across the board with the other lists, and now this one looks out-of-synch. Mad Jack O'Lantern 06:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree - the list has no value if the entries are not sourced or relevant - The only entries on this list should only be those that have a real connection to Irishness either through their own statements or through reliable sources - otherwise it is valueless - a distant ancestor is okay - if the identity is there through a personal statement or other source. Entries are beginning to filter in that have not been sourced. 86.12.253.32 10:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I hope this subject is further discussed in the next few days. I'll be away for two weeks, maybe we'll have some kind of consensus when I come back. Mad Jack O'Lantern 15:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose making a number of sub-lists from this list, such as 'List of Irish American actors' and also a category that would collect this and the sublists together. This should make each list easier to maintain and easier for the reader to find people. Comments? Thanks Hmains 19:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough. Politicians/actors oughta be the prime targets for sub-listing Mad Jack 19:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I moved this list back as I had an extremely long discussion with Jack previously and explained that the only way this list can have any sense to it whatsoever and comply with Wikipedia policies is to include the descent in the title. It is unworkable to govern these lists by only including people who have been said to be an xxx American by so and so or someone who has said they are Irish American but to not include people who have talked a lot about their Irish heritage but have not actually been called an Irish American, or conversely to include those who have full Irish ancestry but have never uttered one word about it. Arniep 10:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a random collection of information. There was consensus and no disagreement when I suggested to move the title back. Please explain to me how listing people by great-grandparent's ethnicity has anything to do with what an encyclopedia does. You haven't got no consensus to change the title to the longer and sillier version. Mad Jack 13:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Garth Ennis

I have never seen any suggestion anywhere that comic-book writer Garth Ennis is American. Where was this information sourced? User:Damndirtyape 2.29pm, 5 September 2006 (GMT)

You're right, it was probably a mistaken insertion by someone - now removed. Thanks, Mad Jack 16:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Andy Rooney

What idiot used this quote to justify adding Rooney to this list of "Irish-Americans":

"I'm proud of my Irish heritage, but I'm not Irish. I'm not even Irish-American. I am American, period."

Can't you read? 195.92.40.49 17:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Who gets to decide who's Irish-American?

I think we should only include people on this list if they themselves have expressed that they consider themselves Irish-American. References would be needed. For example, did Billy the Kid consider himself an Irish-American? Or did someone just add him to the article becuase he was born in "New York's Irish slums"? I'm of 'Irish decent', but don't consider myself Irish one bit, and would hate to be labelled by someone else like this. Logoistic 12:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, if yer Irish-American yer Irish-American, "you can choose yer friends but not yer family" as they say. Maybe we should state that Afro-Americans arnt Afro-Americans unless they have "expressed that they consider themselves Afro-American".--Vintagekits 23:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You are conflating race with ethnicity. Whilst the two terms do blur, the term "African American" is derived from a definition of race. As the article African American notes:

"This usage of the term African American generally refers to black African ancestry and American nationality. But generally speaking, the term does not include Whites or Asians from Africa"

Yet "Irish" is an ethnicity, that is:

"a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987)."

Whilst race defines African Americans, it is more malleable factors that define ethnicities like Irish-Americans. As the article ethnic groups notes:

"Ethnic groups are also often united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, ritualistic, or religious traits."

You can't choose whether you're black or not, but you can choose whether you adopt the above traits. Think in a simimlar way how many have British descent - yet look at how few class themselves as "British-American" (or even "English-American" as most decendents would be English). Should we then start calling these people British-Americans instead of just Americans? No. The point is that Irish-Americans are an ethnicity who's membership of the social group relies strongly on self-identification rather than more conrete factors such as skin colour doing it for them. Therefore we shouldn't be adding names to lists like this unless they have self-identified, which shouldn't be hard to do. Logoistic 13:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

merge

do not merge the list of Irish in New York into this article. That list has different contents than just being a list of people Hmains (talk) 05:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of Irish-american

Ancestries of Shemar Moore is African-American on the paternal and French and Irish descent, his mother's side. Anastacia is also partly of Irish descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.39.166.65 (talk) 02:33, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Notes

Entries now have room available for "notes" regarding their "Irish American" connection to their careers. Bulldog123 11:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Tasha Yar

Why does Tasha Yar have a citation needed? --68.102.143.27 (talk) 03:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

My guess would be because she is not a real person.184.156.23.123 (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

People

When compiling lists of notable people, it would be nice if everyone would try to remember, without having to be reminded by "feminists", that women exist, and sometimes do things. Rosekelleher (talk) 11:52, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

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