Talk:Karva Chauth

Karva Chauth ... the lighter side of the picture

Karva Chauth is supposed to be a joyous occasion. It is another matter of course that it can border on the ludicrous on its silver screen version – Glitzy sets and huge, laden tables for a Hindu, vegetarian version of an Iftar party, and that curious, perfectly round water body specially created for the event.

Anyone who has actually kept the fast knows that real life is quite different. Dressing up is probably the best part of the tedious fast, but making it through the puja and waiting for the moon to rise takes up all the remaining energy. How many actually have the vigor for partying either before or after that? Part of the fun is to gather in a circle to complete the thalis ritual before sunset. Every family has its own hoary tradition (hamare wahan to aisa hi hota hai) of what to do with the diya which is lit on the thali. Most families have one diya, while others have two, one of which goes over the woman’s shoulder after the puja. How would that be possible on the glitzy party settings? For others, it plays a role in the finale, at the point when they view the moon through the chhani before breaking the fast... When does it go into the water, as shown in the movies and TV serials?

The rituals Like the Muslim roza, women wake up in the wee hours of the morning for a meal, and the last sip of water for the day should be taken before the vanishing of the last star and the rising of the sun. Practical experience indicates that rather than food, it is nourishing coconut water and juices, which helps one to last the day without even swallowing one’s own saliva. The fast breaks at moon rise, not at sunset as the roza. The day may be spent in gossip and solah shringar. Mehendi is applied to the hands— is that to ensure that no work is done? Nor are the women allowed to use any pins on this day—is that to ensure that no wily sasuma gives them some stitching or embroidery to complete on what is touted as a Woman’s Holiday? This is perhaps the only festival which is not preceded by bouts of spring cleaning and cooking of traditional specialties, which break the woman’s back, while offering festive treats for the rest of the family. Wives are enjoined not to wake sleeping husbands and not to cajole sulking ones, as this is their day—a day to spend on themselves and on 16 forms of shringar. The question arises: Why do women have to pay such a heavy price for that tiny annual bit of freedom? That the stomach must remain empty the whole day, not even a bit of spittle to wet the parched throat.

On a more serious note…. the story behind the Karva Chauth quite defies logic. How did the fast start in the first place? I have been questioning this anomaly for the 37 years that I have been married to a Punjabi. The story is that the ‘laadli’ sister of seven brothers undertakes the fast for the first time after marriage. Apparently, although she has seven older brothers and seven bhabhis, who presumably kept the fast while she was an unmarried sibling in the house, both she and her brothers are totally oblivious to the sacrifice that the festival entails. The brothers are so troubled by their little sister’s thirsty agony that they cheat her by lighting a fire behind a hillock nearby. They tell her to look at the light through a round channi (to make her believe that it is the moon) and persuade her to break her fast.

Is that possible? Rational? Immediately, her husband is pierced mysteriously with thousands of needles and she has to carefully pick them out one by one. One has to presume that the pain of the extractions and possible infections delay the process so much that it takes a whole year until Karva Chauth comes round again and misfortune strikes once again. Veerawali, the laadli sister of her male siblings, hears a hawker selling karwadas, a typical Karva Chauth delicacy. Deputing her maid to the needle extraction task, she goes off to take her pick. While she is buying her karwadas, the maid finishes off the job. As the last of the needles is extracted, the husband comes out of the coma and amnesia takes over. Seeing the needle in the maid’s hand, he takes her for his wife. When the actual wife appears, she is relegated to the post of maid and over the whole of the next year, no one, not even her fond brothers bother to disabuse him of that false notion. Is this an indication of a very Punjabi notion that once a girl enters her sasural, she is to be abandoned to the mercies of her in-laws no matter what – even death? Witness the modern day parallel in dowry deaths, with parents taking tearful action only after death claims their daughter, never during all the time that she has been complaining of ill treatment. So Veerawali is reduced to a servant’s status in her own home. She takes to spending her spare time playing with her doll, telling her repeatedly “Jo rani thi so goli ho gayi, jo goli thi so rani.” (the queen became the maid and the maid became the queen). Another year rolls by before the husband overhears Veerawali’s refrain and questions her. Finally, she spills the beans and tells him that she is his real wife. What took her so long? Look at that story and wonder: if any fire can be mistaken for the moon. Also, it is difficult to imagine such terrible nanad-bhabhi vibes that Veerawali has no conception of what Karva Chauth entails. It beats me why the silly woman did not send her maid out to buy the karwadas when she knew that there were just a couple of needles left. Having cared for her husband for a whole year, would she not be more concerned about those last needles? Why did no one tell the husband the truth about his wife? And of course, most importantly: why the fast in the first place? We are told that it is kept for the long life of the husband. But there are several such fasts. What is so special about this one, except that it falls on a day when the moon rises later than usual? And as for fasting for someone’s long life, how come there are so many widows in India when fasting for husbands is such a popular and common phenomena spread over all the different varieties of culture in this huge sub-continent? If some wives don’t fast, does it mean that they don’t care for their spouse? Or that they wish him ill? kusum choppra

Rename to Karva Chauth

I am going to propose renaming this to Karva Chauth. This is the default pronunciation in Hindi as opposed to Karwa Chauth. See: bit.ly/aSmraY. Due to v-w partial allophone relationship in Hindi, sometimes people are indiscriminate about transliterating 'व'. In this case व follows an 'r' sound and the Hindi default pronunciation for that is 'v' as opposed to 'w'. Please see the paper. --Hunnjazal (talk) 05:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Guess there's nothing really to discuss here. Left the sign up for a week with zero response. Moving now. --Hunnjazal (talk) 19:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Celebration by Barelvis - Really?

I have not been able to find a single reference to support observance of Karva Chauth by Barelvis. I don't know how it ended-up in this article. I am going to leave it with a cite-flag for a couple of weeks more at least, but will then delete the Barelvi reference unless a valid ref has been found. --Hunnjazal (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Deleting it. If it is reinserted, please add refs. --Hunnjazal (talk) 16:27, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Urdu script not required for the article

As Karva Chauth is a Hindu-Sikh festival, Urdu script shud not be used here as Hindu-Sikhs don't speak Urdu, which is spoken by Muslims. Even if the official language of J&K is Urdu, still Urdu shud not be used as the Hindus and Sikhs of J&K speak Hindi, Dogri, Punjabi, Pahari or Kashmiri. Urdu is more specific for Muslims. Using Urdu script may depict that Karva Chauth is a Muslim festival, which is definitely false.

You clearly do not understand that *lots* of Hindus use Urdu, both in Pakistan and in J&K. There is a tonne of Karva Chauth materials in Urdu, including the entire recitation and all the materials in Urdu. Thousands of Hindu women who can read no script but this observe KC. The festival is also covered prominently in the Urdu press in Jammu region also. Please desist from equating language and religion. They are not the same thing at all. BTW Kashmiri and Dogri are often written in the same script and you should also be aware that in Pakistan all Punjabis, including the small Hindu minority, use this script. If I hadn't seen the pattern of your other changes, I was going to guess that you were an anti-Hindu bent on erasing the traces of this community from Muslim-majority regions (infact that was my first reaction). What exactly are you trying to accomplish? --Hunnjazal (talk) 04:44, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Please give me source that Hindus anywhere use Urdu. I know Urdu is the official language of J&K along with Dogri and Kashmiri, but its not used by Hindus. U say that Urdu newspapers of Pakistan and J&K cover this story. In fact Hindi newspapers cover the story of Eid or Muharram. That doesn't mean that Hindi script is to be used in articles like Muharram and Eid. Various languages are spoked in J&K and if we are talking about a festival, the language used in the beginning shud be the language of those who observe the festival.

Quote "They are not the same thing at all. BTW Kashmiri and Dogri are often written in the same script and you should also be aware that in Pakistan all Punjabis, including the small Hindu minority, use this script".

The point is not about just script, but about the language spoken by those who observe this festival. Urdu shud not be here in the article's beginning as it is used by Muslims of Pakistan and J&K. 90% Pakistani Hindus are Sindhi-speaking. At the start of the article, Hindi is ok as the festival is observed by Hindi speaking Hindus in North India. Punjabi is ok as Sikh women also observe this festival. But Urdu is totally illogical as Pakistani and J&K Hindus are not Urdu speaking. Though they may be using Urdu in their day to day life as its the official language, but neither they speak Urdu as their mother tongue, nor their religious scriptures are primarily written in Urdu. 1.23.133.132 (talk) 10:34, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

That makes no sense. What makes you think Hindus are not Urdu-speaking? What is the basis for this anymore than saying that Muslims are not Hindi-speaking. For starters, the two languages are not distinct from one-another. The difference is primarily in script and Pakistani Hindus, by and large, do not use Devnagri, just as many Indian Muslims from UP nowadays are not that good with Urdu script. Eid ul-Fitr should be listed in Nagri also, but the problem is that it is too widely observed so you cannot have a massive list of languages and it is listed only in Arabic in the lede (not even Urdu or Persian or Uzbek or whatever). It isn't dissimlar to Yajna, which should be listed in many languages but is too widely practiced and so only Sanskrit is used in the opener. You might think you're being pro-Hindu in your approach, but it is actually anti-Hindu because your approach basically says Hindus are aliens wherever Urdu is used as a primary script. This alienates them from homelands where they have lived for millennia. Also Gurmukhi is used by all Punjabis in Punjab, not just Sikhs - many Hindus cannot read any script with facility but Gurmukhi. Your linkage of script and religion is wrong. BTW Hindus in J&K and Punjab region have absolutely used Perso-Arabic script for centuries. All religious scriptures are available in Urdu. They write Sanskrit in Urdu script. Sanatan Trust also publishes the Gita in Urdu script. So does Yatharth - you can download Urdu Geeta from here. You can easily buy it in J&K. Somehow you have some preconceived notions about this region which are not consistent with actual reality. --Hunnjazal (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

QuoteEid ul-Fitr should be listed in Nagri also, but the problem is that it is too widely observed so you cannot have a massive list of languages

Similarly Karwa Chauth is celebrated in a vast number of states including Indian state of Gujarat. Gujarat has more Hindus than entire Pakistan. So instead of Urdu, there shud be Gujarati (if u take top three languages). After Gujarati, then u shud add other languages like Pahari, Kashmiri, Dogri, Sindhi, Rajasthani etc... I don't think that Urdu can find its place in even top 10 (as per the number of observants). Its a simple logic that no Hindus and Sikhs are Urdu-speaking.

Quote What makes you think Hindus are not Urdu-speaking? What is the basis for this anymore than saying that Muslims are not Hindi-speaking.

Hindi and Urdu are very similar, but not same. If u do some research, u will find a vast difference in vocabulary. The base of both the languages in Khariboli. Hindi has a large number of Sanskrit words, while Urdu has got plenty of Persian and Arabic words. This makes the two languages different. Muslims of India speak Urdu, while Hindus speak Hindi. They have got reasons for their choice. Muslims find some connection of Urdu with their religion, while Hindus have same connection with Hindi. If u get data from census 2001, u will find that no Hindu speaks Urdu and no Muslim speaks Hindi.

QuoteBTW Hindus in J&K and Punjab region have absolutely used Perso-Arabic script for centuries. All religious scriptures are available in Urdu. They write Sanskrit in Urdu script. Sanatan Trust also publishes the Gita in Urdu script. So does Yatharth - you can download Urdu Geeta from here.

There is no official status to Hindi in Pakistan, so its not easy for Hindus to learn Devnagri. But primarily, their religious scriptures are in Devnagri and they just had to convert these books into Urdu script as it was not practically possible for them to learn Devnagri in Pakistan, where only Urdu is taught in primary schools. And now if u consider spoken language, then Hindus of West Punjab speak Punjabi, those in NWFP speak Pashto, and a vast 90% majority speak Sindhi. Urdu comes nowhere in the picture.

Now comes J&K, Hindus use Sharada script since centuries for Kashmiri. Their old religious scriptures are also in the same script. Nowadays, most use Devnagri for writing in general and Arabic script is used only for official purpose.

I think we had have enough of discussion on this, and I think that I have convinced you that Urdu can't be placed in this article as majority of Hindus in both India and Pakistan are non-Urdu speakers. If u take that top 3 language logic, then also Urdu can't be placed. 1.23.133.132 (talk) 12:37, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

We have had enough discussion because you clearly do not know this region or understand script usage. It looks like you're taking some stereotype and generalizing in some weird way. You had earlier said - Please give me source that Hindus anywhere use Urdu - which was easily disprovable because there is enormous religious Hindu literature in this script. Infact, this was the standard script for virtually *all* Punjabi before partition. Gurmukhi was used only by Sikhs really and only for Sikh religious literature. Similarly, Dogri had its own script Takri but it was not in wide use. What was used was Perso-Arabic to write everything. It didn't have any of these connotations you are ascribing to it in this region. You are taking a Hindi-Urdu conflict from UP/Bihar and generalizing invalidly to this area. Urdu was made the state language of J&K by Hindu Dogra rulers, *not* Muslims. The Hindus in J&K and Pakistan who use this script never converted to it from Nagri. On the contrary, the Hindus in this region who use Nagri have converted from Perso-Arabic. Hindus who used PersoArabic didn't feel this to be Muslim anymore than a Hindu using Roman or English in India feels they have become Christian (inexact analogy, but it might help you see it). In Sikh-ruled Punjab PersoArabic (Shahmukhi) was the script used by everyone without a second thought - Until the end of the nineteenth century, shahmukhi functioned as a shared Panjabi script. Most really old Punjabis can't even read Nagri or Gurmukhi. Urdu is the only script they have fluency in. When Zail Singh was president his 'Hindi' speeches were written in Urdu - you can see this actually by the direction in which his head and eyes moved as he scanned the paper in front of him. IK Gujral was the same way when he was prime minister. Update: apparently Manmohan Singh does this too - Indian Prime Minister Singh’s Independence Day address was delivered in chaste Urdu. As the camera caught Dr Singh reading from the prepared text he was seen turning the pages of his speech from left to right — an indication he was reading the speech from an Urdu script. When Hindu castes wrote their histories also, it was always done in Urdu - Islah-e-Mohyali for instance. Your statements continue to be wildly incorrect, eg their religious scriptures are in Devnagri and they just had to convert these books into Urdu script as it was not practically possible for them to learn Devnagri. This is just plain wrong. In this region, scripture was probably converted to PersoArabic (Sharda/Takri -> PersoArabic) before it was converted to Nagri. The article on Devanagari itself notes that Since the 19th century, it has been the most commonly used script for Sanskrit (i.e. < 2 centuries) in the opener. I have no objection to adding Gujarati to the scripts for KC in the opener of this article.

I urge you to not apply your preconceived notions to this region. You have consistently been wrong in your assumptions so far and your approach is betraying a clear POV on this issue as your basic approach is to eliminate information from the article to 'purify' this to conform to your values, as it were. The Indian subcontinent is vast and Hindu-Muslim histories are not the same in UP vs Maharashtra vs Bengal vs Punjab. You are making the same error that Pakistanis did in Bangladesh in assuming that the use of what they perceived to be the 'Hindu' Bengali script by Muslim Bengalis was weird. It wasn't. Bengali script usage by Muslims doesn't have a religious connotation. The use of PersoArabic historically did not have a religious connotation in the NorthWest. Even the thought wouldn't have occurred to most Hindu and Sikh Punjabis. There is *lots* of communal anti-Muslim literature by Punjabi Hindu extremists in PersoArabic from pre-partition days. That may seem odd to you but would have been a non-issue for them. Do you understand better? I am also fine to replace the word 'Hindi' with 'Devnagri' and 'Urdu' with 'PersoArabic' since it's actually about the scripts involved, not the languages. The confusion comes from common usage. People actually say 'I write Kashmiri in Urdu' when what they mean is 'I write Kashmiri in PersoArabic'. --Hunnjazal (talk) 06:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Pakistan

None of the references say that Karva Chauth is celebrated in Pakistan. So, Pakistan shud be removed as well. According to the source :

Kartar Singh Bhalla, Let's Know Festivals of India, Star Publications, 2005, ISBN 9788176501651, "... 'Karwa Chauth' is a ritual of fasting observed by married Hindu women seeking the longevity, ... married women in the northern and western parts of India, especially, Haryana, Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and Gujarat ... eat a little food before sunrise and start the fast ... After the moon rises ... finally break their fast ..."

Section on Sikhism and Karva Chauth

The section "Sikhism and Karva Chauth" reads like it has been written solely with the intention of discouraging women who may profess the Sikh faith from celebrating Karva Chauth and observing fasts.

If, indeed, there are Sikh women that observe the fast, then that fact should be noted. Otherwise, this section sounds like it's coming out of nowhere and is irrelevant. Perhaps something like, "While X percentage of Sikh women in India are known to observe the fast, Sikh orthodoxy discourages, etc, etc" could be added to the article.

Also, if this is a recurring theme (that of some Sikhs celebrating holidays or customs that are contrary to Sikh teachings), then perhaps this section should be separated into its own article that covers all similar instances with an in-depth discussion of why it is frowned upon and why it is a recurring issue.

VigilantBystander (talk) 21:40, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

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