Talk:Karate/Archive 5

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WP:Japan Assessment Commentary

The article was assessed as C-class, for lack of sufficient in-line citations. Boneyard90 (talk) 09:19, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

World Games Programme

I find that the points mentioned at Talk:Aikido#World Games Programme apply as well to the karate article:

  • The World Games Programme are not mention in this article and have no context here.
  • The template does not add anything to the karate article.
  • There are many karate competitions: they cannot all be mentioned.
  • If someone wishes to create an article List of karate competitions and exhibitions, that would certainly deserve a reference here.

I would propose removing template:Sports of the World Games program. jmcw (talk) 09:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

And 86 medals will end up in the trash. Karate at the World Games. --Kasper2006 (talk) 09:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
If you wish to have a place to put the template, create List of karate competitions and exhibitions. I am sure that many people would add to the article. jmcw (talk) 09:43, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Olympic Sport

If karate were to become an Olympic sport who would be the governing body and how different would the rules be from Olympic taekwondo? 76.120.17.197 (talk) 17:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

sport based karate exists with its own competition rules. while its only conjecture it would be most likely one of these existing styles would be evolved intot he offical standard for olympic grade. generally sport karate is alot less impact than traditional self defence karate and is all about making contact than disarming the opponent as a potential threat.152.91.9.153 (talk) 21:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This page is not a forum. It is for improving the article.--Charles (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Karate as Shinbudo

Karate existed for hundreds of years before the Japanese adopted it in the pre-WW2 era. I moved the mention of shinbudo from the first sentence (WP:UNDO) to the historical section of the lead. jmcw (talk) 10:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually I think we don't even need a link, shinbudo is basically the same thing as budo (martial art developed after 1868 in Japan). Francis Bond (talk) 22:25, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
No, Ffbond you are wrong again! "Martial Art" is NOT budo! "Martial Art" is bujutsu! Karate is based on shin-budo created after 1868 and in this way is a direction within "Martial Way". It is wrong to named all Japanese martial disciplines as "martial arts". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kontoreg (talk • contribs) 09:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Japanese karate

Japanese martial arts that trace their roots back to ancient fighting arts in regions of Okinawa, various regions of mainland china — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.251.92 (talk) 08:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Dishonest practice

This appears to have been added by a disgruntled student who has misquoted a link. I have removed all uncited and inflammatory content. As it refers to a practice across all martial arts and not just the subject of this article - Karate - should it be remove altogether and made the subject of its own article ie McDojo ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.204.172 (talk) 23:37, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Sport

The history as well as the techniques posted on this page is very bias and based on Funakoshi and shotokan, it not very accurate when it comes to the all the other styles of karate and is very ms-leading.

Particularly the part about kumite where it states "kumite was not part of karate training". Again this is true for shotokan, Goju ryu and shito ryu both had kumite. As well as other styles.

Motobu Choki published a book called Okinawa Kenpo Karate-jutsu Kumite-hen (1926). Pre-ww2

Thanks J — Preceding unsigned comment added by NightHawk1810 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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WikiProject Karate Proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Wikipedia:WikiProject Karate

Dear editors, I am proposing a new WikiProject Karate to bring together editors with knowledge of this martial art specifically, especially due to Karate becoming an Olympic sport I think it is time to focus energy on the roughly 3500 main space articles associated with Karate. Full description of the rationale and goals can be found at the link above, please comment, discuss (and join if you support this project!) All the best, Mountaincirque 08:23, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

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Bad reference external link

I had a problem with citation 63, it took me to the site but shortly after, a popup occurred that I couldn't close out of. I'm not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but just a heads up. Bonhoffrm (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Same thing happened to me when I checked it. I removed the reference outright, as it cannot be used to support the claim anymore anyway, thereby rendering the sentence unverified. Plus leaving such a link is just a bad idea. oknazevad (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

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I posted a new link under United States. It is source 61, I did so to provide a reference to back up the claim about Robert Trias. Please feel free to review and let me know if a better one is available. Bonhoffrm (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

NOT every karate partitioner entitled to be called as karateka

As least you are/were famous karate partitioner, don't misleading the new karate beginners, please check the List of karateka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_karateka --Osmond (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@Osmond: I see that you have identified a particular sentence in the article as incorrect. I want to commend you for trying to make Wikipedia better, and I'm definitely willing to discuss this change with you. Because it was unsourced, I have removed the statement you identified as incorrect from the article. Since Wikipedia is not a source, though, do you have a reliable source to backup your claim? Please do know that I am here to help. My intention is not to frustrate you. I just want to make sure that the information is verifiable by other readers. This will prevent things like this from happening. Cheers, JustBerry (talk) 02:39, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@JustBerry: I found there are some online dictionaries explain the word “karateka” very well.

I’m not sure are they good enough to backup my claim.

1) Dictionary.com

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/karateka

[kuh-rah-tee-kah]

noun, plural ka·ra·te·ka, ka·ra·te·kas.

an expert in karate.

Origin of karateka

< Japanese, equivalent to karate + -ka person (< Middle Chinese, equivalent to Chinese jiā)

2) Collins Dictionary

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/karateka

karateka in British

(kəˈrɑːtɪˌkæ )

noun

a competitor or expert in karate

Or, in the case for whom doesn’t know Japanese nor Chinese, please let me try to explain.

Karateka in Kanji’s writing, which is 空手家, we can divide it into two parts, which is “karate” and the suffix “-ka”, no doubt “karate” just means “karate”, a martial art from Japan/Okinawa/Ryukyu, you will not call it as “Empty Hand”.

So you think the suffix -ka means the people who are doing such activity just same as English -er? Like “Boxer”, “Runner”, “Archer”…well sorry, No, they are not same.

The -ka add on a noun means an expert, for examples,

Senmon-ka (専門家) means expert,

Geijutsu-ka (芸術家) means artist,

Kigyo-ka (起業家) means entrepreneur…etc

Karate-ka (空手家) means Karate Expert for sure, never indicate the beginners nor the people who join a karate gym and put his/her dogi (道衣) into closet for decades.

I personally went to Okinawa to join a international karate seminar in 2016, I read the promotion leaflet that written both in Japanese and English, in Japanese it written as “世界の空手家”, the meaning is “Karate Experts of the World”, but it had been translated to “Karateka of the World”. We didn’t see any problem because that was a respectful expression in Japanese, we will call the people (especially in a group) higher rank than they entitled just similar to the English Sir/Madam.

I think the “karateka” had been misused for decades while karate were spreading into the west since the first generation of western karate trainers didn’t make clear the meaning of “karateka” and forwarded to their students.

As a Wikipedia editor since 2005, I think I have obligation to correct it, as a karate partitioner, I would open my mind to learn and try to understand the new thing, not just follow the dust on the grand masters’ grave.Osmond (talk) 07:58, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Moreover, karateka is not a terminology like the "Nekoashi-dachi" means "Cat's stance" nor "Mae-geri" means "Front kick", it's a normal Japanese phrase used in public, a karate practitioner shouldn't be arrogant to claim oneself as an expert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osmond (talk • contribs) 08:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Oknazevad: Please feel free to contribute as well. --JustBerry (talk) 04:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The claim that only certain masters are properly called "karateka" is an extrodinary claim that requires a source. Meanwhile the existing use of the term is standard, as seen not just throughout the article but also in the sources used for the article. As such, it has been restored following the spirit of WP:LEADCITE. oknazevad (talk) 13:32, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Firstly, "karateka" is not English, it's Japanese, the suffix "ka" refer to a Japanese kanji "家", in this situation, means expert, famous person or some one who devoted his life into the business. I heard of western karate friends of mine misused this word, I told them even a 10th dan Japanese/Okinawan Sensei will never claim themselves as a "karateka" in a humble attitude. If you are practicing karate, please go to ask your Sensei about this if he speak Japanese, otherwise just ask a Japanese friend or google it. Or, just on these list.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A9%BA%E6%89%8B%E5%AE%B6%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_karateka — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osmond (talk • contribs) 17:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I did ask my Sensei, decades ago. He used the term himself, for both karate and judo. Considering he coached 2 Olympians in the latter, including his own daughter, I'm going to trust his word. Also, editing the article to falsely change the titles of works used as sources is plain and simply vandalism, and repeating it will result in a block. Don't do that agaian. oknazevad (talk) 18:19, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/karateka thanks for answering, If you don't mind, I'd like to ask your Sensei's name and organization, so we would know one of the original source of this usage of "karateka". As you mentioned the achievements of your Sensei, perhaps you are also entitled to counted as "karateka", but I insist, not every people who bought a dogi in the closet for decades then earn the title of karateka. BTW, I don't know what is Judi, do you mean Judo? As myself a member of Kodokan judo participant, the situation is quite same, we heard many mistranslations of "judoka", as many Japanese grand masters' English aren't great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osmond (talk • contribs) 08:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC) Osmond (talk) 08:25, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
My sensei originally hails from Hokkaido. Again, I trust him far more than a random anon on the internet. More importantly, this is Wikipedia, and we follow sources, including the ones where you've now improperly changed the title twice now. oknazevad (talk) 16:07, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Obviously you and your teacher doesn't know Japanese, please don't spreading the wrong information on Wikipedia. Osmond (talk) 04:41, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Wow, I must have missed the part in his published autobiography where Nayagusa Ogasawara from Hokkaido, Japan, doesn't know his own native language. You are engaging in WP:SYNTH. You've changed the actual titles of references twice, and most recently added a tag while adding an unsourced section, which is plainly ironic. I'd recommend walking away, as even the dictionary sources you quote above contradict your claims. oknazevad (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a source, I am not trying to offense, but personal experiences ain't a source either. We use Japanese in karate, no matter in the dojo or WKF tournament, Olympic games..., just same as we use Arabian in numbers, Latin in biology. If you have time, I beg you have a seat and learn the meaning of 空手家 in Japanese, and we won't have this kind of argue anymore. And I don't think it would be harm to learn few more Japanese correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osmond (talk • contribs) 04:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
I am not trying to teach Japanese here, but here is some examples of the usages of 家, this word has many pronunciations and meanings in Japanese, but if you pronoun as "ka", that means a specialist or expert something. http://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-%E5%AE%B6.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osmond (talk • contribs) 04:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

In my view, at this point the English language has incorporated the term "karateka" and on the English-language edition of Wikipedia, it is the meaning of the term in English-language sources that controls, not the original meaning in Japanese. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:20, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, please be careful to WP:SIGN comments in such a discussion. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:20, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Etymology

唐手 could also mean "empty hand". 唐 may mean not only "Tang Dynasty", but also "empty" (according to this and this sites). If that is true, the origin of the word might have been partially or entirely from the term "empty hand". Several other sources also assume the origin is "empty hand". — Preceding unsigned comment added by NikPeev (talk • contribs) 10:55, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The same symbol was will be found today on goods shipped from Canton,l( Can. Tang and almost certainly refers to Tang dynasty China. Perhaps we could get an expert in Chinese ideographs to comment. The Korean use of this symbol has always been Tang or Dang . and it was used for marketing purposes because the Japanese used the other symbol for kara, Ed Everidge, Tang Soo Do Master. EdEveridge (talk) 12:17, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Also note that if it had meant empty there would have been no reason to change symbols. 

EdEveridge (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

From my research, the 1905 book Karate Shoshu Hen by Chomo Hanashiro predates Funakoshi in the Tang->Empty naming. I was always (in martial arts training) taught the Funakoshi origin that's represented here, but I keep running across the Hanashiro version of this. Does anyone have a date for Funakoshi at or prior to 1905? 

Rob Allshouse (talk) 04:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I am told (by a fluent but non-native speaker of Japanese) that ‘“kara” is one of the Japanese readings of T’ang. Normally “to” though.’ So the sequence is that ‘kara’ is a secondary reading of the kanji 唐 , another meaning for ‘kara’ is ‘empty’, most normally written ’空’, hence the modern term. This isn't clear in the ‘Etymology’ section, since it doesn't mention the secondary reading. Can I suggest expanding the second sentence in this section to make the link clear. I'd do it myself, but I don't feel personally confident about the language details NormanGray (talk) 16:38, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Karate for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Karate is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Karate until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 00:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

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