Talk:Joseph Stalin and antisemitism/Archive 1

Article title

The article was specifically intended to write (and actually writes) about antisemitism of Stalin, which is a broadly discusssed topic. Anti-semitism in the USSR is covered in the History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. No need to expand the scope of this article. We don't have and hardly intend to have articles Socialism and antisemitism, Maoism and antisemitism, Liberalism and antisemitism, Anarchism and antisemitism, Radicalsim and antisemitism. `'mikka 16:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Out of those you numbered, most simply wouldn't do, due to lack of material.
I hesitate copying the 'CPRF section' into History of Jews: the sections seems to particular for an overview.Constanz - Talk 17:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've found a better title than the narrow title Stalin's antisemitism. By Stalinism and antisemitism we can see both past and present, since Stalinism is by no means a phenoimenon of the past. I think Humus first suggested this title. Constanz - Talk 15:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The title "Stalin's antisemitism" is POV because it implies that he was an antisemite which is not a fact. I suggest we rename it to "Stalin and antisemitism" Nekto 18:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"not a fact"? Did you read the article? If someone really makes some general sense I suggest you to write an article History of the Jews during the period of Stalinism or something, a subarticle for History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. The word "and" is a contentless arbitrary juxtapositon, kinda "cabbages and Kings". `'mikka 19:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The article doesn't provide us with a single solid proof of supposed Stalin's antisemitism. I see here a lot of speculation and words like "supposedly", "suspicious" and claims like "the use of "anti-Zionism" could not obscure the antisemitic content of these campaigns" and finally Radzinsky's hypothesis. Also the article is poorly referenced - for example what is the source for the Stalin's order for execution of thirteen of the most prominent Yiddish writers? Now the whole article looks like agitprop. Anyway I will not participate here since the topic is not that interesting for me. I'm sorry to disturb you ... Nekto 19:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think, given the ocean of evidence out there, any serious historian argues whether Stalin was anti-semitic, nor obviously were such sentiments particularly unusual in Europe in the first half of the 20th century. The real argument is over whether he was planning a mass deportation of Jews following the Doctors' plot at around the time of his death.Mosedschurte (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding my edits

I'm currently reading Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar and it goes over that many individuals in Stalin's court were Jewish, along with other minorities especially Georgians and Armenians, which is what communist movements were usually composed of, like Shi'a support of communism in Afghanistan. I haven't named everyone off, but I think the article doesn't go into enough depth about the antisemitism. It would seem clearly that Stalin had many members among his family and friends who were Jews, and would refrain from Jewish jokes around one of his Jewish friends before the outbreak of the Second World War. But Stalin, in addition to the embedded antisemitism in European culture, also was a paranoid individual. Aside from Jews being a minority (the book describes his view of them as "mystical" because of their lack of a homeland), which the advent of Zionism I can only imagine his antisemitism increased.

On a personal note, my father's best friend was a Russian Jew who said Stalin was planning action against Jews in the Soviet Union however Stalin died before it could be implemented. His family started to pack up but then news of Stalin's death reached them, and his great grandfather said, "The dog is dead." But according to this article, it seems that historians doubt this purge was actually going to happen. It'd be something interesting to look into. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 03:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move

Since this article describes this particular aspect of Stalinist politics rather than Joseph Stalin per se, IMHO it would be a more appropriate title. To avert potential concerns: I am not sympathetic towards Stalin, just trying to make this entry more encyclopedic. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 11:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This article does not describe an "aspect" of "stalinist politics". It explains an aspect of "Stalin's politics". "Stalinism" is basically a political shorthand for "Stalin's dictatorship" or something like Stalin's dictatorship. Any attempts to bring some special meaning to the word "stalinism" is game of words. In relative terms "Brezhnevism and anti-Semitism" was a more pronounced trend within its context, i.e., within the respective scope of the events of both periods. `'mikka 19:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the move tag here for lack of interest. In the future please follow all of the steps at WP:RM including creating a survey area. Thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I've moved to Stalinism and antisemitism. Constanz - Talk 15:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

No, you have not moved anything. You have done cut-and-pasteing to make it appear as a move. This may be a copyright violation, as you are attributing work by others to yourself. If you think there is consensus on the move, ask some administrator to do it, by placing it on Wikipedia:Requested moves under Uncontroversial proposals. Otherwise follow the full WP:RM. -- Petri Krohn 10:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You will not move anything. This article has its scope defined by its title. "Stalinism and Anti-Semitism" title would imply some correlations between Stalinism and Anti-Semitism, not just a series of pogroms during Stalin's rule, which may quite well be covered in the History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. `'mikka 19:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Petri made a funny statement here: This may be a copyright violation, as you are attributing work by others to yourself - perhaps he might have looked the history of contributors at first?
As to Mikka: "Stalinism and Anti-Semitism" title would imply some correlations between Stalinism and Anti-Semitism - in Russia today (but not in the West) this correlation clearly exists. Constanz - Talk 16:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This whole article seems silly to me. There's little if any evidence Stalin was an anti-semite. Especially seeing as how he helped establish the country of Israel. I would suggest this article be split up and added to the pages of the authors who are making these charges 97.91.188.124 (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

POV

The whole piece is a tissue of dubiously sourced allegations.195.194.57.189 (talk) 10:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC) It should be removed.

This is an extraordinarily POV article. If you don't cite references for some of these claims within a reasonable space of time, I shall simply remove them. Mgekelly - Talk 06:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your ignorance will not give you power, colleague. 75% you may find in wikipedia. Two books are cited. If you have particular questions, ask them. Wholesale threats are hardly wise. Also, I'd suggest you to practice a bit in usage of google search before questioning something. `'mikka (t) 06:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

My intention was not to 'threaten' anyone, but simply to inform about my plan of action. I am not querying things either taken from Stalin's works, or with page references to the Russian work cited. I will go back and flag the individual facts that I think should be referenced. Wikipedia is not in itself a valid reference, I don't think. Mgekelly - Talk 06:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your previous plan was read as threat of vandalism. If we start running around and "simply remove" things we don't like, we will be quickly blocked from editing for disruption. Tagging is reasonable, deletion is not. `'mikka (t) 07:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I can completely see how you could have misunderstood my intentions there. The fact is though that often short articles like this have been written by someone who takes no further interest in them. In any case,

Disputed text can immediately be removed entirely or moved from the article to the talk page for discussion.

as per Wikipedia:Citing sources, which is all I was talking about, since I found several claims in this contentious. I'm glad that you are so conscientious with this article, mikkalai. Mgekelly - Talk 07:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"conscientious" would be a rather strong word. I simply happen to know what it speaks about. At the same time I know that I don't know all. If you have particular problems, point them out. `'mikka (t) 07:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

1.This edit [1] looks rather peculiar, for I have citations for most important claims (Radzinski's book namely, if someone asks, I may find original Russian passages, it's available online). Secondly, what is not directly referenced, comes mostly from article *History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union#Under Stalin .281922-1953.29, which was also mentioned by me.

2. Extraordinarily POV? Facts, please. The fact that this article uncovers Stalin's acts, which many people would like to 'forget' doesn't make it biased. Also, most information comes from Wikipedia, different articles on similar subjects (one might look the see also links before starting complaining).--Constanz - Talk 07:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I assure you Constanz that I do find this article to be POV, in that it doesn't feature the defence given for Stalin's policies. I can't really be bothered to add it myself though, so I'm going to quit griping at you guys now. Mgekelly - Talk 08:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

to quit griping at you is a reasonable step. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing which evidence one can bring forth to feature the defence given for Stalin's [anti-Semitic state terror] policies.--Constanz - Talk 08:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it depends how you understand the word "defence". For starters, whinning about "Stalin's [anti-Semitic state terror]" is simply ridiculous if one compares numbers of russians and jews killed by stalin. The "anti-Semitism" was a mere coincidence withing the overall stalin's politics, but jews label everything what against them with this word, so "anti-S" it be. But the main issue was Stalin's actions agains everything that threathened his total control. In this particular case it was world Jewry (and I don't buy some of Radzinski's wild fantasies). `'mikka (t) 07:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mikkalai. Let me try to rephrasse this: the fact that he persecuted a lot of Russians did not prevent him from persecuting Georgians, Chechens, Ukrainians, Poles, Balts... (long and somber list) The Jews are not the first and not the last in this list. So yes, he was exhibiting antisemitic behavior along with anti-Ukrainian, etc. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I haven't claimed Stalin was an anti-semite. He was just totalitarian dictator and a mass murderer, and after some time he decided to 'deal with' Jews. (Radzinski has also emphasised pragmatic motifs behind the campaign). But all of this remains, of course, a subject to debate.The "anti-Semitism" was a mere coincidence withing the overall stalin's politics, but jews label everything what against them with this word, so "anti-S" it be. But the main issue was Stalin's actions agains everything that threathened his total control. -- it's possible.--Constanz - Talk 16:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

One my sentence is left unclear: it was world Jewry. Here I don't have in mind a conspiracy theory. The fact was that Jews of Russia, by maintaining contacts abroad were a breach of Soviet information blockade. This blockade was vital in the success of the indoctrination of soviet citizens that the soviet life is better than in the world of capitalism. `'mikka (t) 17:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Protected due to edit warring

I've protected the page because there have been a sequence of reverts with no discussion on the talk page. Please use this page as the first step of dispute resolution. If it can't be resolved eaasily then a content RFC or a noticeboard posting may help.   Will Beback  talk  22:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

"Formally"

"Uniformly" conveys that, whatever their actual policies, anti-racism is generally advocated by Marxists: this is useful information. What information does "formally" convey? That these leaders may be lying? The very existence of this article says that. Echeneida (talk) 17:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Polivanov

This [2] diff is a misrepresentation of literary historian Polivanov's polemical article. The interpretation that G. gets out of the Polivanov article is not directly stated there, and since it is not stated in this fashion by any more by more notable source either, it is difficult to see such an edit as anything other than WP:OR (although I do not see cause to doubt the good nature of Galassi's intentions). User:Miacek correctly pointed out that it is fringe, and while I'm hardly a fan of his, for once I do agree with him. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Когда Сталин уничтожал старых большевиков

и былых марксистов, а затем начинал борьбу с "безродным космополитизмом", он воплощал на практике лосевские (не его одного, конечно) идеи." I can translate it for you, if needs be. Case closed.Galassi (talk) 17:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

That exact quote means that (thus Polivanov claims) Stalin put into practice the ideas of Losev. Nowhere does he write that Stalin learned anything from Losev: you're doing WP:OR. The article as a whole describes Losev as an example of his time rather than the progenitor of it. "он воплощал на практике лосевские (не его одного, конечно) идеи" means nothing. To take it apart, by analogy, I could say that Louis Charles Breguet gave pratical life to the ideas of Leonardo, but to render this as the latter's influence upon the former would be severe WP:OR. And I've already pointed out to you previously that Polivanov is a literary critic, not a real historian. (It wouldn't be as bad if your reading of Polivanov's remarks were actually taken up by some serious historian or scholar who explicitly put forth such a reading, but that isn't the case.) Why you keep citing him as the "historian Konstantin Polivanov" is hard to square with that particular fact. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Galassi, you've broken three revert rule, it seems. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, yes. Here is edit by Galassi. It tells: "According to historian Konstantin Polivanov Stalin's own philosophical development in the direction of Russian Imperial idea and anti-Semitism that paved the way to the Great Purge of 1930's that largely purged Jews from the Soviet government, was influenced by the anti-Semitic writings by the anti-revolutionary and anti-Marxist Russian philosopher Alexei Losev. (ref)". This edit implies that the Great Purge was conducted to purge Jews from the Soviet government, and that Purge was inspired by Russian Imperial idea. This is fringe at best. According to almost every history book, the Great Purge was conducted by Stalin to improve his personal powers, to enforce the "command" socialism system, and to prepare for the future war. My very best wishes (talk) 04:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Please see quotes from various sources here. My very best wishes (talk) 12:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Excessive direct quotation

This page includes a lot of very long direct quotations, most of which are not informative or insightful. I suggest to remove most of them (except quotations of Figes and Medvedev that are indeed insightful). My very best wishes (talk) 19:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Since no one responded, I quickly fixed a few things and shortened one excessively long quotation. My very best wishes (talk) 05:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

For example, I only briefly summarized this quotations, all of which tell the same:

According to Mikhail Baitalsky

“

The repression of the thirties hit the Soviet intelligentsia and members of the government and party apparatus much harder than it hit ordinary workers. Within the intelligentsia and the official staffs, in turn, the Communists were hit much harder than non-Communists. Finally, among the Communists themselves repression struck at old members with much greater force than at those who had recently joined. But it was precisely among the Jews that there were more white-collar workers and intellectuals than industrial workers; the percentage of Jewish Communists was two, three, sometimes four times greater than among other nationalities; and if we look at national composition within the party, there was a disproportionately large number of Jews among older party members. The result of this combination of factors was that, although the repression was not specifically aimed at the Jews, it struck them harder, in a kind of ricochet effect, than it did other nationalities, sweeping away in the process the most progressive section of the Jewish nation, those most devoted to the revolution.

”

However, the Russian historian Gennady Kostyrchenko writes that some 29 thousand Jews, or 1% of the total ethnic Jewish Soviet population, were arrested in 1937-1938, and that this proportion of arrested Jews was comparable to the proportion of arrested ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians.

The Oxford University historian David Priestland writes that "Jews, as an ethnic group, [were not] victimized by the Soviet regime before World War II, and were not specifically targeted by the 1936-38 Great Terror."

The Indiana University historian Jeffrey Veidlinger has written that

“

The notion that Stalin and his agents deliberately provoked anti-Semitic discrimination as part of the Terror is not shared by most specialists on the purges. . . . If Jews suffered disproportionately during the purges of the 1930s, it can be attributed largely to their heavy representation among the groups that were hardest hit—intellectuals and Party members. This is not to say that anti-Semitism was absent during this period. In fact, as Robert C. Tucker notes, hostility toward Jews became increasingly noticeable during the Great Terror. Social hostility, however, should not be equated with the type of genocide imagined by [some writers]. Students of the Soviet Union's other national minorities have held that ethnic persecution was a pervasive aspect of Soviet policies toward non-Russians in general. Only recently have specialists on the Jewish minority, such as Igor Krupnik, come to realize that 'Jewish policy was a fairly integrated component of Soviet nationalities policy. Several other peoples were purged and promoted in roughly the same way, while a few had a far more tragic record of persecution by the communist state.'

”

Historian Roy Medvedev observes that Stalin's 1930s purges "noticeably reduced the number of Latvians, Estonians, Finns, Poles and Hungarians within the Soviet elite, but this can be explained by the fact that Latvia, Estonia, Finland, [and] Hungary. . . were not part of the Soviet Union and could not serve as a source of new cadres. The number of Germans and Jews in the elite was also reduced, although many Jews continued to hold leadership posts in the party and government."

My very best wishes (talk) 12:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Good source

• Good review of the subject by one of the best historians. It should probably be used here. This is also of interest. My very best wishes (talk) 20:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC)