Talk:John Higgins/Archive 1

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Nickname: The Haggis?

Resolved
 – Nickname was deleted.

Can anyone document this nickname, as I have never heard him called this? I propose to delete this if not referenced soon. bigpad (talk) 15:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be deleted immediately if it not sourced, per WP:BLP. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

Resolved

Please, put a link where he says he identifies himself as Scottish. Without a link, he's (legally) a British. See Carol Ann Duffy's talk page. There is an example of this issue. --Maru-Spanish (talk) 02:12, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Snooker's governing body regards England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as four different nationalities for the purposes of players' nationalities. The snooker articles on Wikipedia reflect this. If you think it should be done differently then you should take it up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Snooker. Making the changes to just one article puts it at odds with all the other snooker player articles. Betty Logan (talk) 09:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

All the snooker player articles have their nationality marked by a flag icon. By removing the icon the articles are inconsistent. If you disagree with the use of icons then please take the issue to Wikipedia:WikiProject Snooker since it affects all player articles. Betty Logan (talk) 20:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

So because FIFA say Steven Gerrard should play for the England Team rather then the Scottish team they are correct in determining his legal nationality? That is ludercious. This man is British but is identified as being a Scottish snooker player - that is no inconsistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.0.3 (talk) 14:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

YouTube

The youtube video was removed by saying it "was not a reliable source", but to me a video showing what was said is a primary source! That is more reliable than any summary news paper article. It is what happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=NvBdq3A3Qpk&gl=US Jaroslav3 (talk) 11:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The News of the World has the the video on their webiste, and it is linked from the reference in the article. The video is a valid primary source if published by the NOTW, but not by a third-party uploader on Youtube because the video can be tampered with. Betty Logan (talk) 11:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the link to be the NOTW video. Jaroslav3 (talk) 12:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
That's fine. Here are the guidelines on Youtube as a reliable source: Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Are_IRC.2C_MySpace.2C_and_YouTube_reliable_sources.3F. Betty Logan (talk) 12:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Protection?

{{Editprotected}} Is the protection excessive? It prevents me fixing a spelling mistake "Mooney *als* said". The vandalism edits were fixed immediately. Is protection needed? Jaroslav3 (talk) 15:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I have fixed your typo. The request was made due to excessive IP editor attention as the news story rolls out. Leaky Caldron 15:40, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Felipecocco, 3 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please change: In May 2010 Higgins and his agent and World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association (WPSBA) board member Pat Mooney, were filmed in a sting operation conducted by the News of the World tabloid newspaper, who alleged it showed Higgins and Mooney had agreed to influence snooker games in exchange for payments from an illegal gambling syndicate.

to: In May 2010 Higgins and his agent, former World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association (WPSBA) board member Pat Mooney, were filmed in a sting operation conducted by the News of the World tabloid newspaper, who alleged it showed Higgins and Mooney had agreed to influence snooker games in exchange for payments from an illegal gambling syndicate.


Because: It makes more grammatic sense and it reflects the fact that mooney is no longer a WPBSA member.

Felipecocco (talk) 05:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 Done BejinhanTalk 06:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree with part of this edit because it encourages the reader to believe that Mooney was a former WPBSA board member at the time of the meeting. I have tweaked it. Leaky Caldron 09:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


"5th snooker player to receive an MBE" is incorrect

The BBC source mentions only four other snooker players who have MBEs but it doesn't explicitly say that they are the only four. I've come across two others: Terry Griffiths (OBE) and Mark J Williams (MBE). Tws45 (talk) 14:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


Match Fixing Verdict Reached

The WPBSA have issued a press release. Higgins has been banned for six months (backdated to May) for failing to disclose the approach, but has been cleared of charges of match fixing. He will be back on the tour in November.79.68.37.92 (talk) 14:10, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Overdetailed?

I am curious to know why the "Suspension" section is tagged as "overdetailed". It answered my questions and I felt it has exactly the right level of detail. I propose to delete this tag unless someone convinces me otherwise. Tesspub (talk) 16:13, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

DoneTesspub (talk) 19:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Content removal from the "Suspension" section

There has been a recent spate of edits removing content from the section about Higgins' suspension: [1]. This is the previous version: [2]. This is the newer version with most of the content removed: [3]. I certainly don't think the revised version adequately covers the incident and provides a very one-sided view. It is important that the article does not violate Wikipedia's netrual point of view policy which means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. The newer version also now omits the nature and context of the allegations, as well as Higgins' response, both of which should be included to give a balanced account. It is also important to give an accurate account of the findings of the disciplinary hearing. The edits keep stating that Higgins was "cleared" of match-fixing, whereas this is patently not true—the charges were dropped prior to the hearing due to a technicality of the rules, and this part with the corroborating source keeps being removed and replaced with the factually inaccurate claim that he was cleared: the hearing simply didn't address the charge so they can't clear him of it. Betty Logan (talk) 18:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Again I have had to make further corrections to edits that misrepresent the chain of events: [4]
  1. DO NOT REMOVE the News of the World reference that is used to source the sums of money discussed. Claims on Wikipedia have to be verifiable: WP:Verifiability.
  2. DO NOT ALTER A DIRECT QUOTE. Higgins said "I felt the best course of action was just to play along with these guys and get out of Russia", so a quote should be retained in its entirety or not at all.
  3. THE MATCH-FIXING CHARGE WAS WITHDRAWN. You cannot be found "not guilty" of something you have not been charged with. The tribunal findings state that the association withdrew the charge before the hearing because they were satisifed Higgins was telling the truth. Therefore his own association cleared him of match-fixing, not the tribunal. Higgins was cleared of match-fixing before his hearing. So please do not misrepresent the hearing by implying it tried him for match-fixing. It didn't. It tried him for bringing the game into disrepute.

If you think the current version is inaccurate or misrepresentative or unbalanced, discuss your concerns here. Do not remove or alter parts of the section to give a more favorable picture of Higgins. There are three viewpoints that have to be to fairly represented: the allegations; the defence; and the findings of the inquiry. Betty Logan (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

  • NOTE: This article has now been locked. It is important that the match-fixing section is factually accurate, and balanced. If there are further concerns from any editor, please bring them here, and we can work on wording etc to make sure all editors feel the article is fair. There are two questions we need to address. Is the level of detail right? A certain level of detail is necessary to ensure the correct context, but it shouldn't be disproportionate. The second issue is the balance—there are three parties involved: Higgins (along with Mooney), the News of the World, and the WSA (via its disciplinary process), and all three parties should have their stance clarified in a neutral fashion. Betty Logan (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi guys, I feel the following needs to be amended, as it is factually incorrect:

"The more serious charge of match-fixing against Higgins was withdrawn by the WSA before the disciplinary hearing, due to their acceptance that he had truthfully accounted for his actions. The findings of the hearing also concurred that Higgins had given a truthful account."

I added the following reference, which was published on September 8 and constitutes the verdict from the two-day hearing - "In full: the John Higgins ‘match fix’ ruling by Ian Mill QC":

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/09/08/in-full-the-john-higgins-match-fix-ruling-by-ian-mill-qc-080902/

Please also read the interview with David Douglas - "Why John Higgins was cleared of match-fixing":

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/09/21/revealed-why-john-higgins-was-cleared-of-match-fixing-because-the-evidence-including-a-statement-from-mazher-mahmood-told-the-full-story-210901/

The charges were not withdrawn before the hearing at all, but afterwards, as Higgins' account of events was heard 'officially' for the first time. Why would/how could the charges have been dropped beforehand - this was the first and only time that Ian Mill QC, who was leading the hearing, and who ultimately was passing the verdict, got to question Higgins face to face on the evidence that David Douglas had gathered in his lengthy investigation. Thus, Higgins did face charges of match-fixing, and answered questions in relation to this at the independent tribunal.

Higgins and Mooney were charged with the following:

Charge 1: Agreeing or offering to accept a bribe, bribes or other reward to fix or otherwise to influence improperly the result of a Tournament or Match.

Charge 2: Agreeing to engage in corrupt or fraudulent conduct.

Charge 3: Intentionally giving the impression to others that they were agreeing to act in breach of the Betting Rules.

Charge 4: Failing to disclose promptly to the Association full details of an approach or invitation to act in breach of the Betting Rules.

The result of the independent tribunal was that Higgins admitted Charges 3 and 4. He was cleared of/the Association withdrew Charges 1 and 2, which related specifically to match-fixing. Hence, he was cleared of match-fixing, but found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute and banned/fined as stated.

I agree it's a difficult section, but the content really must reflect the ruling by Ian Mill QC.

Kind regards.Robhatcher (talk) 21:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Robhatcher, thanks for coming here to discuss these issues. It's much better for everyone that we discuss things rather than edit-war over the article. I hope we can achieve a consensus which results in a reasonable update to the article. All the best. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

No problem - sorry for not logging in to make the changes before. I've been amending this article on-and-off for a year or two now; if I'm honest, I rarely bothered to log-in to do so. It wasn't my intention to cause an 'edit-war'. I hope we can achieve a consensus too. I'm guessing we're all snooker fans, so it's important to have a factual resource for like-minded folk.Robhatcher (talk) 21:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The disciplinary transcript [5] says the "Association has withdrawn Charges 1 and 2" (the match-fixing charges) since "The Association has explained that this withdrawal resulted from an acceptance...that Mr Higgins had truthfully accounted for his words and actions". The hearing transcript on the subject of the withdrawn charges states "the Association was right to conclude that this account by Mr Higgins was a truthful one". But the disciplinary hearing only delivered a verdict on charges 3 & 4. They did not deliver a verdict on charges 1 & 2 because they were withdrawn. We can't say the hearing delivered a verdict on charges 1 & 2 when it didn't. You are right that it is not clear at what stage the association withdrew the charges, so I have removed that bit. We have to use the words they use in the actual verdict otherwise we are not being impartial. If you says he was "cleared" of the match-fixing charges, or "exonerated" it does not accurately portray the manner in which he was cleared, and could give the impression he was tried and found "not guilty", but this isn't what happened. This point is addressed in the David Douglas Q&A [6], question 1 says "Why was that charge withdrawn without the evidence being tested?". There is an important distinction between the charges been dropped, and a verdict on those charges being returned. To draw an analogy, if you are arrested and charged with murder, but the charges are later dropped then the charges have simply been dropped. You have not been found "not guilty", because it would take a trial to deliver a verdict on those charges. The transcript says that the match-fixing charges were withdrawn because the association believed his account, and the hearing also believed his account, so we can use that in the article, but we can't say the tribunal formally cleared him of match-fixing because they didn't actually deliver a verdict on those charges. Betty Logan (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Betty, I agree that it is not clear at what stage the Association withdrew the charges and that, if we adhere to the exact wording of the findings of the independent tribunal, as referenced, we cannot say he was "cleared". However, the investigation carried out by David Douglas on behalf of the WPBSA regarded match-fixing; and bearing in mind the severity of Charges 1 and 2, I feel the fact that these charges were withdrawn should be mentioned before that they found him guilty of the lesser charges of not reporting the approach. Would you consider (?):

A full investigation was conducted into the allegations by David Douglas - a former Metropolitan Police detective chief superintendent, and head of the WPBSA's disciplinary committee. The independent tribunal that followed on September 7-8, hosted by Sports Resolutions (UK) and chaired by Ian Mill QC, concurred that the WPBSA was right to conclude that Higgins had truthfully accounted for his words and actions; and to withdraw the more serious charges of match-fixing, but find him guilty of bringing the game into disrepute by not reporting the approach made by the News of the World. As such, he received a six-month ban, backdated to the start of his suspension period, and was fined £75,000.Robhatcher (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That's fine by me. It's consistent with the source. I'll copy that into the article. Betty Logan (talk) 23:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I've tightened up the first two paragraphs too and combined into a single paragraph. I think it's more balanced now, we have the allegations and the reaction in the first paragraph, and the disciplinary in the second. Betty Logan (talk) 17:42, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Playing Style

A number of other snooker players have a section on their playing style.

Commentators have mentioned how he is "known" for good safety play, and IMO he's often boring to watch. Does anyone more knowledgeable have any sources from which they could construct a "playing style" section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.248.70 (talk) 20:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Here are some bits from a fresh quote by Ronnie O'Sullivan, maybe it can be worked into the article:[7]
To me he is the complete player [...] I am an instinctive player but John is a more technical and deliberate player [...] He has the perfect technique whereas I am a bit more like Alex Higgins - I move a bit and twitch them in or flick them in, but John can't play like that.
GregorB (talk) 22:10, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Suspension in the lede

Betty Logan has replaced this:

In between his third and fourth world championship titles, Higgins was banned from snooker for 6 months, after an investigation in the wake of a tabloid sting found that he had failed to report, and given the impression of agreeing with, an invitation to breach the sport's betting rules

with this:

In 2010, Higgins served a six month ban for match-fixing related offences

on the grounds that "doesn't really require a full paragraph in the lead".

I disagree with this, as the replacement simply suggests that he was banned for 6 months for match fixing. The 'related' qualifier doesn't imho prevent that impression at all, and the statement simply begs the question. The previous version details the incident without ambiguity as is required, while still keeping to the principle that it's supposed be a summary.

If it looks too long in comparison to the rest of the lede, I'd suggest that's because the current lede is pretty short overall, particularly for a four time world champion, and rather than cutting this, the rest needs adding to. It says nothing for example about other important things like his early career, his impact on the sport or his playing style. MickMacNee (talk) 00:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

The lead is supposed to provide a brief overview of his career so a paragraph was too much in relation to what was there, because it gives the impression that he's mostly notable for the match-fixing scandal. If you think it reads wrong and want to re-word it then fair enough, but I still think it needs be kept in proportion to the rest of the lead. I think filling out the lead is probably the best soultion. Betty Logan (talk) 01:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
How about this in the interim until the lead is reworked: Following a tabloid sting in 2010, Higgins served a six month ban and was fined £75,000 for discussing betting and failing to report an approach about it to the governing body. It's more or less the wording used by the source to summarise the case and judgment so no POV issues and it's brief. Betty Logan (talk) 02:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
I've expanded the whole lot. I think it looks in proportion now, and you get a much better picture of his impact and career highs/lows too. MickMacNee (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
You've done a terrific job, that easily addresses the balance. Betty Logan (talk) 06:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2015

Australian Goldfieds Open not Australian Goldfields Open :-) Bjorn1956 (talk) 13:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: Australian Goldfields Open seems to be correct. Cannolis (talk) 13:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Add category

 Done Thanks for the suggestion - Arjayay (talk) 17:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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World ranking is incorrect.

He is correctly ranked no 6 Jessica729 (talk) 00:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The rankings are out of date for all players. I have set an update notifier for the day after the world championship. Betty Logan (talk) 08:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

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