Talk:Johann Dzierzon/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Silesian Dzierzon Family Locations in Kr. Kreuzburg

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.204.255 (talk) 18:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Łowkowice

The first sentence of the article states that JD was born (and died) in "Łowkowice". Just curious if there is any evidence (on a map or in a book) that this name was used in the Polish language, and spelled that way during his lifetime, prior to his death. Otherwise it might be violating the standards prohibiting original research. Dr. Dan (talk) 14:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Reversions

Reversions of my changes are not factual. Dzierzon was from Upper Silesia clearly. Lomkowitz was spelled that way officially, and not in the later Polish version. It is sad that Dzierzon is caught up in certain chauvinist word plays, which are not factual. I added many important things, like Dzierzon having been an Old Catholic for some time. Dzierzon's national allegiance can be discussed. I adhere to the thesis that he considered himself Silesian, that is Slavic Silesian, and a speaker of the Polish language dialect of Upper Silesia too, but not a Polish citizen or Polish nationalist in the modern sense. He was no proto-Wojtiech Korfanty (German: Albert Korfanty). In fact the Old Catholic Church of Germany which he joined from 1873 to 1902/1905, was very German-nationalist and glorified Germanic culture, like Georg von Schönerer did in Austria.Smith2006 (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Smith2006, please read the Gdansk/Danzig vote. In biographies of Polish persons - and Dzierzon was a self described Pole - from areas that have had a "complex" history the Polish spelling of places should be used. This is why, for example, the name "Danzig" is used in the article on Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit even though Gdansk was at the time part of Poland. Same here. BTW, this has already been discussed many times. You're basically trying to restart old feuds - and also being uncivil by referring to "Polish chauvinism" and "POV".radek (talk) 00:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

For the record, here is what the Gdansk/Danzig vote notice, now added to the top of this page, actually says (quoting relevant parts):

  1. For Gdańsk, use the name Danzig between 1308 and 1945
  2. In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdańsk) and later Danzig exclusively
  3. In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the name should be used in the form Gdańsk (Danzig) and later Gdańsk exclusively.
  4. For Gdansk and other locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) or Gdańsk (Danzig). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises.

Fahrenheit lived between 1308 and 1945, and his home town was called Danzig in that time, this fact needs to be duly reflected in Wikipedia articles. Apparently, Radek believes that Dzierzon and Fahrenheit are "clearly Polish persons"? (Asking a question to avoid calling it "Radek's POV" and getting accused of incivility) -- Matthead  Discuß   13:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Matthead, you're missing the point. Dzierzon was clearly a Polish person. Fahrenheit was clearly a German person (hence Danzig is used in his article, even though it was part of Poland). A little good faith please. Let me remind you as well that you're supposed to stay away from me.radek (talk) 13:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Okay, so we agree on Fahrenheit being clearly a German, at least. Regarding Dzierzon: citizenship-wise, nobody was Polish during his lifetime, while Silesia had been part of the HRE, and became part of the German Confederation when he was child, and of the German Empire when he was 60. As for the language skills, Dzierzon surely published in German, even his own magazines. I'm not so sure he wrote/published in Polish himself, rather than having somebody else translate his works. Can anyone investigate? Google Books show some of his works translated into English and other languages (like a Scandinavian one), but surely nobody claims he was an Englishman or a Norwegian. It's funny that Lesław Łukaszewicz lists him as Dzierzon twice, without a dot on the z, even though he made use of the "ż" in the word należy. As for staying away: My first edit of this article was on 14 January 2007, yours on 7 May 2009. My first talk entry here was on 13 January 2008, and yours, let see ... today. Or did I overlook some earlier edits of yours? Do I have to consider every article on my watchlist taboo as soon as you appear, like Talk:Jena? -- Matthead  Discuß   17:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Matthead, I have publications in English but that doesn't make me English or American for that matter. Nena Hagen sang in English, but that doesn't make her English either. People publish their works in non-native languages all the time - for publicity reasons, for monetary reasons or because they are forced to. That a citizen of Kingdom of Prussia and Germany - and btw, when those (few and in between) sources call him "German" they are referring to his citizenship, not ethnicity - would publish in the language of the state (a very nationalist state) he lived in is unsurprising. But it has nothing to do with Dzierzon's ethnicity. (and "dot over the z" = nice red herring).
As for you staying away from me - the arbitration ruling was made on May 6th, 2009. Since then you have not edited this page. It doesn't matter who edited this page back in 1992 or whatever. The point of the arbitration ruling is that you're not supposed to follow me around and revert my edits and vice versa. Yet, lately you've been showing up on pages I've recently edited and reverting my edits. I might as well remind you at this point is that in fact you're restricted to 1RR on ALL Eastern Europe related articles.radek (talk) 17:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, Radek, you are not restricted from providing translations and facts and sources to this article. I'm really curious about the English meanings of Dzierzon's Polish works - no need to give us a German translation (like pl-Wiki does with his Nationale Bienenzucht), as Dzierzon would have translated it into German himself if he wanted us to know about it. BTW, is Nena Hagen a Polish singer? -- Matthead  Discuß   20:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
What does this have to do with anything? Who said Nena Hagen was Polish? What are you talking about?radek (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, many unanswered questions, and unasked answers. So Nena Hagen sang in English, but that doesn't make her English either, roger that. Dzierzon wrote in German, but that does not make him German. He also lived all his life in Prussia/Germany, but that does not make him German. So what makes him Polish? Publicity reasons? -- Matthead  Discuß   20:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Uhhh, his ethnicity? The fact that he said "I am Polish" or the fact that he said "It's obvious from my name that I am Polish"? Are you just denying the general existence of ethnic minorities here? Seriously?
BTW, I write my professional publications in English, submit them to English language journals, have them reviewed by English speakers (some of whom aren't even English) and I have yet to translate a single of my professional articles back into Polish. And yet, I am Polish and not English. Weeeeeiiiiiiirrrrrdddddd.radek (talk) 21:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me reask this question, " The first sentence of the article states that Jan Dzierzon was born (and died) in "Łowkowice". Just curious if there is any evidence (on a map or in a book) that this name was used in the Polish language, and spelled that way during his lifetime, prior to his death? Otherwise it might be violating the standards prohibiting original research. That unresolved issue needs to be addressed. Dr. Dan (talk) 14:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Górny Śląsk w świetle nazw miejscowych Henryk Borek, page 176. Łowkowice - comes from first known name Łowko.

It's actually a fairly standard Old Polish surname. There are a couple of Łowkowice in Poland. I don't know when the Łowkowice was used first after Łowko.--Molobo (talk) 00:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Polish Nationalist POV

This article is increasingly manipulated by Polish Nationalist editors. I do not have time to correct all their false claims. Lomkowitz was never called "Lomkowice" is modern spelling at that time officially. Later Polish spelling is not relevant. But it is pushed, like Dr. Johann Dzierzon's nationality is pushed, although he was never a Polish nationalist and always a German citizen, even in German nationalist Old Catholic Church of Germany organization, during his schismatic period until 1902.Smith2006 (talk) 19:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course he was a German citizen - he had no choice in the matter as Poland didn't exist back then, having been partitioned by German Prussia (+Austria and Russia). And one more time - tone down the uncivil tone of your comments, this is getting insulting.radek (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I must have forgotten: when exactly had Prussia partitioned Dzierzon's home land, Silesia? Was it the First, Second or Third Polish partition? And, rather than the German/Prussian Universität Breslau, wouldn't a staunch Pole choose the Uniwersytet Jagielloński in nearby Free City of Kraków instead? The Kraków Uprising occurred in 1846, when he was 35, so surely he could have spend 15 adult years fighting for Polish freedom. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Again, what is the relevance of any of this?radek (talk) 00:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
So basically you're saying that to be considered a "true" Pole, one must always choose a Polish university over a non-Polish one (oops, there goes my ethnicity) and that it is necessary to fight in every available national uprising. Well, that contention is not quite as ridiculous as the earlier one, that no such thing as ethnic minorities exist, so I guess that's an improvement.radek (talk) 17:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

the relenvance??? "Polish Jan" Dzierzon is an invention of the 1950/60s (Communist Nationalist Polish era),as the google book searche below clearly shows'

You might also want to look at the funeral service, the speech by the priest, the people attending, the 1 year after (1907) dedication of the grave stone memorial of Dr. Johann Dzierzon, emerierter Pfarrer (according to his own signature) etc etc

You might think twice, why there are before 1920 309 book in German language and 419 in English about Johann Dzierzon and 1 book in Polish, 1 by 1950 and 6 by 1960 about Jan Dzierzon. But then again, for all the Polish nationalists at English-language Wikipedia, I guess, that would only proof "that he was Polish".

Johann Dzierzon's favorite phrase was Wahrheit, Wahrheit ueber alles. His Impkerfreunde (apiary friends) engraved it on his grave. As the grave yards in 'former' Germany were all bulldozed over by the Communist Polish administators of the "regained territory", I wonder if that grave and gravestone for Johann Dzierzon remained throughout the Communist Polish take-over years ???

Death notices, grave stones, funeral speeches for Johann Dzierzon gest 1906

death notice


On Johann Dzierzon’s grave stone: Hier ruhet in Gott… -Ruhe sanft- Wahrheit, Wahrheit ueber alles


Johann Dzierzon 1907 Einweihung Grabdenkmal (Grave stone installed in 1907) grave stone

Leipziger Bienenzeitung

Rheinische Bienenzeitung


Google search by 1920:Johann Dzierzon in German: Result 309 Johann Dzierzon ,German =309


Google search by 1920 Johann Dzierzon English: Result 419 Johann Dzierzon English 419


Google search Jan Dzierzon Polish books by 1950: Results 2 Polish- 2

Henryk Biegeleisen 1889 mention a Jan Dzierzon Stanislaw Wasylewski 1937

Google search Jan Dzierzon Polish by 1960 : Result 6 by 1960 Polish = Result6

Observing (70.133.64.127 (talk) 16:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC))

You should know that it is Polish "Enlightenment" to claim those whom you cannot claim. In order to pop up territorial annexations. That is behind the Polonization of Dr. Johann Dzierzon from Lomkowitz/Silesia: to Polonize him is to justify the massacring of German citizens during the Expulsion of 1945-49, to prove the "ancient Polish history" of Silesia, and to justify Polish crimes after the war. You can recognize this tendency by e.g. the reference to the partitions of Poland in this article, on a Silesian priest, in Silesia, which was never affected by the partitions.Smith2006 (talk) 13:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I like how you put the word "former", in "'former' Germany" in quotation marks, as in "we'll get it back someday, treaties signed by various German governments not withstanding". And you have the gall to call other people "nationalists". That nationalistic German writers tried to Germanize Dzierzon is no surprise. However, the proof is that he called himself a Pole.radek (talk) 17:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no necessity to Germanize a German priest-scientist, who had a Polish grave sign, who was a German citizen, and never described himself as Polish - but he did describe himself as Silesian. In 2060 of course author Kundery Grasz will be declared Polish too - as he lived in "Eternally Polish City of Gdansk stolen by Teutons, Reactionaries, Prussian imperialists, Hitlerite Germans and Fascists from the Greater Polish Empire from Ural to the Atlantic Ocean". And of course Hamburg will be annexed then by Greater Poland. After all, who cares - Polish city of Grasziów (called Bremen by 2009 German nationalists) is eternally Polish land and was simply reclaimed. And in 2200 all will know that Berlin is "Angela Merkela Zdrój" in the Central provinces of Poland in the voivodeship Barlinski. Facts. Because it will be changed that way in wikipedia. All who deny the Polish identity of Berlin are Nazis and Polonophobes who will be expelled or decapitated in the KZ Lamsdorf - it's still reactivatable after all.Smith2006 (talk) 13:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

And this still doesn't answer the question of relevance - what does University of Wroclaw or the Krakow Uprising have to do with any of this?radek (talk) 17:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"You might also want to look at the funeral service, the speech by the priest, the people attending, the 1 year after (1907)" Right, just after bans on using Polish language in public issued by German state or orders to Germanise Polish surnames in public records. That really was not a very strong argument...--Molobo (talk) 23:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

So What's in a Name?

What is ..."the fact that he said "It's obvious from my name that I am Polish"..." supposed to mean? Dr. Dan (talk) 18:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It simply means that he considered himself a Pole. Nothing more, nothing less. Tymek (talk) 19:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Wonderful. What do these two names mean, Hallenberg and Zelewski? Dr. Dan (talk) 23:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Depends on language they come from. Polish names can sound German and German names can sound Polish. It's a common misconception.What does it have to do with the topic ?--Molobo (talk) 23:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Everything. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
In that case, I have too little time to write about everything, have a good night.--Molobo (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Życzę Wam tego samego. Słodkie marzenia. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

If this keeps on going...

I think the best solution will be for me to go library and get some books on the person. Instead of the constant exchanges and conflicts I think it will be better if I just write an expanded version of the article :)--Molobo (talk) 23:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Go for it, Molobo. Before you do, maybe you can answer this one. This will be my third attempt ...Let me reask this question, ...the first sentence of the article states that Jan Dzierzon was born (and died) in "Łowkowice". Just curious if there is any evidence (on a map or in a book) that this name was used for this village, in the Polish language, and spelled that way during his lifetime, prior to his death? Otherwise it might be violating the standards prohibiting original research. That unresolved issue needs to be addressed. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comes from Old Polish surname Łowko, 'u Łowki'. Górny Śląsk w świetle nazw miejscowych Henryk Borek, page 176. Fairly standard name in Poland anyway.Couple of villages have it.--Molobo (talk) 00:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

O.K., and when was Henryk Borek's book, along with page 176, published? Dr. Dan (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I am sure you are capable of finding the book yourself Dan.--Molobo (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm very capable, Molobo. But these discussions are not about me, nor you. Please consider all interested parties. I suspect that the book has nothing to do with Dzierzon's lifetime. Are there any book or maps during Dzierzon's life time (or even before) depicting this village with a Polish name? It's really a simple question, requiring a simple answer. I'm beginning to doubt it more and more. But I still have an open mind regarding the question. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Dr. Dan, while it's fine - and sometimes even productive - to constantly ask questions and demand answers, put in fact tags in articles, and engage in interesting but unrelated talk page discussions, after a certain point it is expected that the editor who does so actually goes out and does some of the leg work him or herself. If you really want to know, why not try to find out for yourself?radek (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Radeksz, if you took the trouble to answer some simple questions, all of that terrific advice of yours wouldn't be necessary. And I wouldn't have to suggest that you take some of it yourself. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Added on his early life

I added on his early life.--Molobo (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Great! Any evidence regarding "Łowkowice"? Dr. Dan (talk) 00:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you are confusing threads here, also unless you present any reliable source denying use of Polish name, I am afraid I am not able to see merit of discussion. Cheers.--Molobo (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Not confusing any threads. I think the burden of proof of the use of Polish name (sic) during Dzierzon's lifetime would be on those attempting to violate WP:OR, not me. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Any evidence that Polish name was not used ? Or is this complete OR ?

--Molobo (talk) 00:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That's not how the system works, besides I thought you were going to bed. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Dzierzon nationality

He was clearly of Polish descent, but there is no evidence provided, that he considered himself Polish. Josef Klose and Miroslav Klose also are of Polish descent or Slavic Silesian, but consider themselves Germans and Silesians. The mother of Dzierzon was Polish-speaking, but his father's family is unsure. Gertrud, Hermann and other names of Dzierzons in Lomkowitz indicate a German orientation in mid 19th century. I am tired of Polish BAD ENGLISH SPELLING and Polish POV pushing by deleting clear facts. Also the deletion of Dzierzon's Old Catholic Church of Germany allegiance from 1872 until 1902 (he re-converted to Roman Catholicism in Lomkowitz in 1905) is silly. Why is this done, but for Polish falsification of historical reality? This is getting childish. Yes, he was a Prussian and German citizen, of Polish descent, with a Polish language mother, Jantosch. Not the Polonized versions. Stalinist Polonization and Polish imperialism and chauvinism are over. Pan-Slavism is just as unscientific as German attempts to consider Tusk a Slavic-Scandinavian name for "Tysk" (German) and thus Kashubians being Germans.Smith2006 (talk) 21:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Look. It doesn't matter what language he published in. People publish in non-native languages all the time. What matters is 1) He described himself as Polish and 2) the overwhelming majority of sources, including other Encyclopedias, call him Polish. It doesn't matter how you feel about this or what you your opinion (or mine for that matter) on the subject is - what matters is what the sources say. Please stop your uncivil attacks and accusations of "Polish imperialism and chauvinism". If you keep up with these, you will be reported for incivility.radek (talk) 22:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Look, a Pole who is a citizen of Poland and pledges allegiance to a Polish people or culture or nation, would publish in Polish. Johann Dzierzon published in German. Not in Polish. He is of Polish descent. You can report me. This article's neutrality and reliability is compromised due to 60 year old attempts by Polish authorities to annex Johann Dzierzon in order to legitimize the annexation and expulsion of Germans from Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia. It is uncivil to falsify history and state Dzierzon's first name is "Jan" while it was Johann, and by Polonizing his mother's first name. Your dirty People's Republic of Poland took away German last names in force from those who had to stay in Upper Silesia, and 100,000s were massacred only for being Germans during post-war deportations. And I am not even German, but irritated by this arrogant one-sided description of Dzierzon.Smith2006 (talk) 23:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Look, a Pole who is a citizen of Poland and pledges allegiance to a Polish people or culture or nation, would publish in Polish. - where does this crazy criteria come from? First, it's hard for a person to be a citizen of a country which does not exist. Second, I happen to be a citizen of Poland and I guess I ... pledge allegiance to a Polish people or culture or nation (whatever TF that means) ... yet I have never published anything in Polish but I have published in English. Yet I am still Polish and not English. Inventing these ridiculous criteria out of thin air is simply OR and hence unacceptable. We go with what the sources say.radek (talk) 01:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Nobody is denying he was a German citizen; all Poles living in the Prussian partition (and Silesia) were Prussian/German citizens (since mid-18th century, previously some were Austrian/Bohemian, but that's not relevant here). He was an ethnic Pole and a citizen of a German state - those categories are not exclusive. Where's the problem? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Upper Silesia at the time was not a Prussian partition, but Silesia, and not Polish in the sense of statehood. Ethnic Pole means of Polish descent at most, as there exists no proof in which Dzierzon says he is a Pole himself first and foremost. Obviously Dzierzon's mother was Polish-speaking. But else? That does not make Dzierzon a Pole and "not a German". I do not claim Dzierzon is a German either. Upper Silesian seems a good compromise temporarily.Smith2006 (talk) 21:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I know they are not exclusive. Due to Johann Dzierzon's ethnic Polish, or rather Slavic Upper Silesian (he considered himself the Silesian Bee's Friend, not the Polish Bees' Friend!), descent, I can live with a category Polish apiarist. But stating in the introduction that he was a "Polish apiarist and priest", is pure falsification. What is relevant, that anachronistic post-1945 annexationist attempts are not transferred into articles on a scientist-priest who died in 1905, as a German citizen in a German province of Upper Silesia - which remained part of Germany until July 1945. Many Dzierzons live in Germany - they are Germans and Silesians. But not Poles. They are relatives of Dzierzon. They have Polish descent. But they are not for always "Polish scientists" etc. Kopernikus was an ethnic German, but a Polish state citizen. No problem with that. I would not accept the Nazi one-sided claims of Copernicus having been only German. Two things are not exclusive, but nationalist POV must be banned from wikipedia.Smith2006 (talk) 23:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
...so who has nationalist POV here ?--Jacurek (talk) 00:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
You. There is no scientific article claiming Johann Dzierzon as a state Pole or Polish citizen, nor is there any proof of this, except for Polish Stalinist-era publications, and some before the war. Again, Dzierzon's mother seems Polish, but the Gertrud Dzierzon and Hermann Dzierzon in the books from Lomkowitz, Leobschütz etc. are Germans and live in West Germany since 1946. It is nationalist annexationist POV to claim Dr. Johann Dzierzon as "Jan Dzierzon" (a name he never used himself in writing ever) first and officially, and then to proceed by styling him as Polish, where in fact he was a "Prussian and German" citizen and priest-scientist first and foremost. Of Polish descent (via his mother primarily). I think we must falsify the wikipedia article on Miroslav Klose also (a forced Polonized name from Communist-era Poland in 1980s), and state that Josef Klose is "Jozef Klosinsky" or something? Just to serve the Polish view and some Polish publications from a politicized and censoring era. As a Dutchman (I am not German in any portion of my blood), I laugh about these falsifications of history, but I am insulted that wikipedia is mutilated in this way. Dzierzon only published in German - and Latin - himself. Never in Polish. Polish and English translations exist. Dzierzon did not publish in Dutch himself either. But translations exist. So what is your motivation in reverting my changes? Johann Dzierzon is his official name. Use it.Smith2006 (talk) 21:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

<---One more time. Please avoid battleground rhetoric and cut these "stalinist-annexationist-nationalist-pov" accusations out. Second. And also one more time. No one's denying that Dzierzon was a German citizen, since he pretty much had to be. No one's denying that he lived in Upper Silesia (though "Upper Silesian" is not really an ethnicity or a nationality - "Silesian" is). Finally. And also also one more time. The majority of sources spell his name "Jan Dzierzon". The majority of sources refer to him as Polish. We go with sources, not your personal opinion. He also referred to himself as Polish, according to both pre war and post war sources. Again. We go with sources, not your personal opinion.radek (talk) 22:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Dzierzon was a German citizen, and not a Polish citizen. No quote is given from his works, that he considered himself Polish. Only Polish propaganda sources are quoted in this regard. This article is one big flop and unworthy of an encyclopedia. Thank you, Polish Propagandists, for falsifying a complex historical personality, who was a German national, an Old Catholic (Old Catholics were nationalists in Germany mostly), who had Silesian ancestry. Annexing him as a Pole. Also numerous false historical anachronisms and lies are made in this article: There is the allegation that Silesia was part of partitioned Poland, a lie pushed by Jacurek. I will not engage in an edit war. Keep your Polish lies' band. This article is not encyclopedic and is no more than a collectively orchestrated Polish Chauvinist propaganda piece. Thank you again. And keep ignoring historical facts and complex reality, all for Poland after all. All lies' brigades for Poland and Annexated Polish Greater Polish History. From the North Sea to Minsk: Greater Empire of Poland. Capital: Warszawa. Regional Capital: Hambork and Barlin, Breminiów (German: Bremen), in 2050. Good luck to you all.Smith2006 (talk) 12:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I find your arguments not only unconvincing but also rude/uncivil.--Jacurek (talk) 16:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
You know what is rude? The institutionalized Polish falsification of history of Silesia, Pomerania, Danzig, East Prussia, Lebuser Land and Neumark, of Stettin and general European history - and the denial of war crimes and Polish crimes against humanity. (Yes, Germans are humans too.) Unconvincing? I do not have the illusion that professional Polish historians and brainwashed Polish chauvinists can be convinced by my irony and sarcasm. But the general reader will know that this article is worth nothing, because it is a piece of Polonization propaganda.Smith2006 (talk) 18:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
....sorry but your arguments are not only unconvincing and rude/uncivil but also incorrect[1][2].--Jacurek (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Just because an English source copied a Polish source falsifying Johann Dzierzon's history, does not mean you are right. You are biased. Thanks to the Polish Agitation and Propaganda Chauvinist Commitee for having me banned.Smith2006 (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Łowkowice

~250 works with this name, including English language and German language (!). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Dzierżon's mother

Please note that not a single source supports "Maria Jantosiów" - but neither does a single source supports "Maria Jantosch." The German name seems to be completly unused in literature ([3]), the correct Polish version is "Maria z Jantosiów" or "Maria z Jantosów" ([4]). This publication (Bogdan Cimała, Kluczbork: dzieje miasta', 1992, states that neither of his parents spoke German: "...Jana Dzierżona, którego rodzice Szymon i Maria z Jantosów nie znali w ogóle języka niemieckiego". Studia i materiały z dziejów Śląska, 1958, also seems to have some interesting discussion on their surname ([5]). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 07:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

It should be Jantos, without -ch. This was my mistake. Jantos is used. The Polonized extremely Slavic-Polish name is based on nothing however. Jantos is official name.Smith2006 (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

re-re-adding information about what Johann Dzierzon himself wrote about his life (was removed by User:Radeksz and User:Jazurek)

Johann Dzierzon "ich bin in Lowkowitz geboren...", his life story in his own words Johann Dzierzon's own life story was printed in 1906/7, as he states, he wrote it in 1889, while he lived at Lowkowitz with his nephew Franz Dzierzon, the youngest of his brother's sons. References to the book were removed by User:Jazurek Anyone interested in Johann Dzierzon's own words (which differ greatly from the repeated post WW II propaganda currently pushed at Wikipedia), may read them in this book posted here. Observing(70.133.64.127 (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC))

It was removed because it was being used to misrepresent something. Of course he wrote the book in German. If he had written it in Polish it would've never been published [6]. All that proves is that a German language book used German language place names and had a German language title. It doesn't prove anything about Dzierzon's ethnicity. It's also a primary, not a secondary source.radek (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Not so (to Radeksz' comment). Apparently you did not look at the book reference at all and you just defend the (wrongful) removal by User:Jazurek. What the book shows is Dr. Johann Dzierzon's life story, that he himself wrote in 1889, in print. He starts with (tranlated) "I was born in Lowkowitz near Kreuzburg", he tells" I went to school in Pitschen for a year" and many other events from his life, including the honey bee theory.

So here again is Johann Dzerzon's life story in his own words, pages 22-26, which was printed in the 1906/7 edition of the Jahresbericht der Schlesischen Gesellschaft fuer vaterlaendische Kultur. Observing (70.133.64.127 (talk) 23:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC))

Citing Google search results as a reference (currently ref 14)

I'm pretty sure this is not an acceptable reference, but can't find the exact policy page. Will look some more tomorrow. Novickas (talk) 03:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, could someone supply quotes and translations for those refs supporting "considered himself a Pole." Novickas (talk) 04:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the search result ref. Could someone answer the second request- separate references to his self-identification. "Most sources call him an ethnic Pole recalling his proclaimed self identification" uses references that don't mention self-identification. Novickas (talk) 02:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

attempted POV forking of talk page...

... was removed. This anon has a bad habit and history of trying to do this (for example, at Adam Stanisław Grabowski). I am re-entering the non-PoV-fork comments below

References to the book were removed by User:Jazurek Anyone interested in Johann Dzierzon's own words (which differ greatly from the repeated post WW II propaganda currently pushed at Wikipedia), may read them in this book posted here. Observing(70.133.64.127 (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC))

It was removed because it was being used to misrepresent something. Of course he wrote the book in German. If he had written it in Polish it would've never been published [7]. All that proves is that a German language book used German language place names and had a German language title. It doesn't prove anything about Dzierzon's ethnicity. It's also a primary, not a secondary source.radek (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Not so (to Radeksz' comment). Apparently you did not look at the book reference at all and you just defend the (wrongful) removal by User:Jazurek. What the book shows is Dr. Johann Dzierzon's life story, that he himself wrote in 1889, in print. He starts with (tranlated) "I was born in Lowkowitz near Kreuzburg", he tells" I went to school in Pitschen for a year" and many other events from his life, including the honey bee theory.

Re Citation request, archiving

Why I asked for a citation on all modern beehives are descended from this design. This book [8] (Taylor & Francis, 1999) distances itself somewhat from this claim by stating "Dzierzon became known in German-speaking countries as the father of modern beekeeping" and describes L. L. Langstroth's as the "first practical hive with moveable frames". The issue looks more complex than is currently presented. That is not unusual in these cases. See Leibniz and Newton calculus controversy. This article doesn't need to be that exhaustive, but a little more distancing wouldn't hurt.Novickas (talk) 02:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This page is 190 KB and its top 2/3s should probably be archived, rather than being subject to edit wars. Novickas (talk) 02:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

D.'s life as interpreted by his museum's website

An editor has disagreed with my characterization of the museum's statement "Spełnia Jan Dzierżon wszystkie warunki, aby nie dzielić Polaków i Niemców, ale łączyć oba sąsiednie narody." as an attempt at cultural reconciliation. From Google translate of the last sentence in the webpage, I see "Jan Dzierzon meets all the conditions so as not to divide the Poles and Germans, but to connect neighboring nations." [9] Novickas (talk) 14:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't have the problem with your translation and/or characterization.radek (talk) 20:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Reference page 789 is claimed as stating J. Dzierzon is Polish

Where does the Polish language book say, that Dzierzon was born in Poland or that he was of Polish descend ? [10] this is used to identify Jan Dzierzon as Polish

It does not state that on page 789, as claimed and I could not find it in the book anywhere, that Dzierzona(a) urodzil sie w Polsce (born in Poland) or J.D. urodzony w polskiej rodzinie. Please post the place in the book ,where it is supposed to state that, here ........... thank you Observing (70.133.64.127 (talk) 21:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC))

Proposal

I've allowed myself to make a compromise proposal on dealing with the nationality silliness that has been tearing this article apart:

  1. De-focus the whole issue. The question of what nationality or ethnicity this person was is interesting only to a few disruptive POV warriors on Wikipedia, not to the world at large. The issue should not take up more space in the article than absolutely necessary. There is no need to have all this massive over-sourcing, neither in order to push in your favorite nationality POV or to push out the opposite view. (Whenever I see more than two footnotes marks in a row, I know an article has been butchered by nationalists.)
  2. The lead sentence should talk first and foremost about his profession, which is what he is notable for. Having the lead sentence speak only of his nationality and not mentioning the rest at all is just silly.
  3. It seems uncontroversial that the guy was Polish by ethnicity, and German by citizenship. It is also common knowledge and uncontroversial that there were many such people native to Upper Silesia. This is trivial. I suggest "Polish-German" as a first approximation in the lead sentence. This is deliberately vague; the vagueness corresponds to the importance of the information, which is low. This is followed by "from a Polish Silesian family" in the biography paragraph. There is no need for more explicit justification of this simple fact in the article itself, nor for overt discussion listing dozens of sources of whether he has been called this or that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Generally I agree, but not with the "Polish-German" I presume it's true (I don't know the citizenship law of the period) that he was a Prussian citizen and later a German citizen, though it's something it would be nice to have a source to confirm. But "Polish-German" or "Polish-Prussian" doesn't mean "of Polish ethnicity and German/Prussian citizenship", it means (to me) "having features of both Polish and Prussian/German ethnicity". If we consider his citizenship important enough to be mentioned in the lead (and I don't see why we should - we already say he was from Prussian-ruled Silesia, which should give it to people - well, that's all that gives it to us at the moment), then it should be written out explicitly (something like "an ethnically Polish citizen of the Kingdom of Prussia, from Silesia").--Kotniski (talk) 11:14, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Kotniski, if he was really Polish by ethnicity and German by citizenship then the article should simply say so. An encyclopedia should be precise rather than making vague approximations.  Dr. Loosmark  11:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Where I live, nationality compounds of the form "X'ian-Y'ian" can mean exactly this: people who have the nationality of state Y but the ethnicity of X, or vice versa. And if you think the citizenship is unimportant, why is the ethnicity any more important? Both are mentioned in more detail in the next paragraph. Your suggestion "an ethnically ..." etc., to my mind, is just too long and gives too much importance to the issue. In the lead, four syllables is the maximum I'd want to invest in it; the details are for the next paragraph. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
How about my current attempt? At least it now says what he was famous for first, and then adds a sentence about his nationality and where he came from. (Like it or not, ethnicity is one of the things that people are primarily interested in about people, and Wikipedia is by no means exceptional among reference works in customarily including that information very near the top.)--Kotniski (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
To my mind, that version still duplicates too much of the second paragraph. As for emphasising ethnicity, WP:MOSBIO actually recommends including nationality, but not ethnicity: it "should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" (which, in this case, it is not). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it the same thing in this case? I know definitions are vague, and MOSBIO emphasizes citizenship over nationality "in the normal case" (which this isn't - the Poles are a nation but there was no Polish state at that time, so if we went by citizenship we would have to say that Chopin was a Russian-French composer etc.) In any case, I don't think the lead, with its three sentences, can possibly be considered excessively long.--Kotniski (talk) 11:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I strongly support 'Polish-German': it is short, accurate (while still being deliberately vague) and to the point. Varsovian (talk) 12:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
It's only accurate if you know in advance what it's supposed to mean. If you don't, you'll be misled by it. If it's deliberately vague, then it certainly shouldn't be used - there is nothing to be vague about here.--Kotniski (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Irish-American = an ethnically Irish citizen of the USA. Polish-German = an ethnically Polish citizen of Germany Varsovian (talk) 14:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Would be nice, but it doesn't work like that. The "*-American" ones are well known and well understood (I suspect "*-Canadian" too); others aren't. We're not here to invent a new language (however logical) or a new truth.--Kotniski (talk) 14:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually I think the lead should be split into two paragraphs - the opening paragraph could just say what he was famous for (the bee stuff), and the second pararaph (still above the table of contents) could give the rest of the not-quite-so-key information in the form of a very brief summary of his life (nationality, where he lived and worked, the fact that he was a priest).--Kotniski (talk) 14:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

That would work for me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


Sorry, folks, just removing at lot of "bad" sources won't do. Stating "came from a Polish family" in the lead is still undue, when the corresponding "came from a German family" is not included in many corresponding articles of persons from areas associated with the Polish Crown. I agree that the "bee stuff" is most important, and he possibly has chosen to become a priest in a rural parish in order to pursue "bee stuff". He apparently got into trouble for not caring enough for his clerical duties.

As for the nationality mess, it has to be made clear that he always lived in Prussia/Germany, and published almost exclusively in German (hundreds of articles in German, even in self-published magazines, vs. only one or three short introductory articles in Polish). As for his background: his ancestors had lived in Upper Silesia, which was Bohemian/Austrian for some centuries before the Prussians took over in the 1740s. There's no indication that they had immigrated from the nearby Polish kingdom which existed until 1795. According to a 1872 quote of his in German, published by Polish sources ([11], see German WP article), he explained his background, probably to Germans unfamiliar with Upper Silesia and the existence of a Polish minority there:

"Meine Nationalität betreffend bin ich allerdings, was mein Name andeutet, ein Pole von Geburt, da in Oberschlesien polnisch gesprochen wird. Da ich aber mit 10 Jahren nach Breslau kam, und dort meine Studien durchmachte, so bin ich von Erziehung ein Deutscher. Doch die Wissenschaft kennt keine Grenzen, keine Nationalität."
"In regard to my nationality, I am, however, as my name indicates, a Pole by birth, as Polish is spoken in Upper Silesia. But since I came at the age of 10 to Breslau, where I pursued my studies, am I am a German by education. But science knows no borders, no nationality."

It is telling that a 1960 Polish book omitted everything after "a Pole". Also, in 1966, the Poles added a plate to his tombstone (photo at http://www.willisch.eu/Bilder/07_Dzierzon/Grab.jpg)

Original Inscriptions English Translation Photo

Hier ruht in Gott
der hochverehrte Altmeister
der Bienenzucht
Pfarrer
Dr. Johann Dzierzon
Ritter p.p.
* 16. Januar 1911
† 26. Oktober 1906
Ruhe sanft!
Wahrheit, Wahrheit über alles!

Here rests in God
the revered old master
of beekeeping
Pastor
Dr. Johann Dzierzon
knight etc.
* 16 January 1911
† 26 October 1906
Rest in peace!
Truth, truth above everything!

File:JohannDzierzonGrab.jpg

Tu spoczywa wielki uczony
twórca nowoczesnego pszczelarstwa
żarliwy patriota i obrońca polskiego na Śląsku,
Ks. Dr Jan Dzierżon
Płytę ta ufundowało w 60 ta rocznice śmierci
Społeczeństwo Ziemi Kluczborskiej
26 X 1966

Here lies the great scholar,
founder of modern beekeeping
ardent patriot and defender of Polish Silesia,
priest Dr. Jan Dzierżoń
This plate was funded at the 60th anniversary of his death
Society of Kluczbork Lands
26 Oct 1966

According to the Polish TV documentary "Truth above everything" „Prawda ponad wszystko“ by Teresa Kudyba nominated for the 2008 award Deutsch-Polnischer Journalistenpreis and its German translation „Wahrheit über alles“ - Eine kleine Erzählung über Pfarrer Dzierzon (PDF), at Breslau University, Dzierzon registered as "Schlesier" (Silesian).

It seems to me that our Andrew Serafin, keeper of hundreds of socks, (and probably many Polish editors of en-WP who had emigrated before 1990), was educated by 20th century Polish communist national propaganda, aimed both against Germans and against historical truth. Dzierzon's parents might have taught him also Polish resp. the local Silesian dialect at home, as he would have been exposed to German anyway, but that does not make him a Pole, let alone an "ardent patriot and defender of Polish Silesia". He probably was a local Silesian patriot, in regard to 19th century Silesia with a majority of Germans. It is wrong to call him a patriot for the post-1945 Polish Silesia where millions of Germans were expelled from, including some of Dzierzons relatives with the same name. It seems the son of his nephew Franz Dzierzon, Alois Dzierzon (died 1963 near Leipzig), became mayor in 1938, as member of the Nazi Party. And, while AN/I might not be the proper place to mention it: a "Dzierżon Jan" [12] represented the German minority of Opole in 2003 as vice voivode, before he was axed due to Polish pressure. I'll try to create an article on him, at "Jan Dzierżon".

Yes, the article name needs to be moved to Johann Dzierzon, as on the tombstone and in contemporary sources. It is a shame that the article still is kept at "Jan Dzierżon", a name promoted by Post-1945 Polish propaganda, and echoed by too many unreliable sources. And having four bolded names plus two Polish IPA pronunciations is plain silly, folks. Well, at least it illustrates that the Poles invented not only one, but two names. Hey, why not choose a fifth one, with is definitively invented? WP:UE! "John Dzierzon" might be a compromise as his first name (nor the initial) seemingly never appeared in publications, in which he is referred to as "Pfarrer Dzierzon", "Dr. Dzierzon", or "Herr Dzierzon"). -- Matthead  Discuß   18:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

What a pathetic rant. /me shakes head. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for this pertinent and thoughtful statement, it will be helpful towards the improvement of the article. Oscillating the head may also improve blood circulation of the brain. -- Matthead  Discuß   19:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Some background on the history of the article and its naming:
In August 2006, and again in September, an Anon (later as User:Serafin), using the 131.IP-range of the University of Guelph, added Polish POV to both articles, and links to each other. Noticing the existence of two articles on the same subject, User:Naive cynic simply replaced the content of Johann Dzierzon with a redirect to Jan Dzierżon, thus choosing his own article and choice of name over the other. Is that how Wikipedia establishes consensus? -- Matthead  Discuß   20:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Redirecting the newer POV fork to the preexisting article was most certainly the correct thing to do, sure. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Lack of AGF? I see no indication that the newer article was a deliberate POV fork from a user who knew that an older one existed. An older article is not automatically the correct one, or do we have now WP:Primogeniture as a policy? -- Matthead  Discuß   21:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The sources provided above are useful, especially the two recent Polish publications who indicate (a) that there is a dispute concerning Dzierzon's nationality, which (surprise) is rooted in the age of nationalism, and (b) Dzierzon's stance on that, who considered himself to be both Pole (by birth/tradition) and German (by education/culture). Thus, FPaS' proposal to write "Polish-German" seems plausible. I put the refs in a footnote with the respective quotes and translation. The are sources further useful to reference large previously unsourced parts of the article, which I did, and I encourage everyone to keep the focus on his carreer and achievements. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Thx for improvements, question re status as priest

The article is looking much better - many thanks to its recent editors. A little quibble - the article states at one point that "As an ordained Roman Catholic priest he took over a parish in Karlsmarkt (Karłowice) in 1835, an office he held for 49 years." (i.e. to 1884). But it later states that "his questioning of papal infallibility were not accepted by the Church,[3] which consequently retired him from the priesthood in 1869." Both are ref'd, so how to reconcile them? Novickas (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

According to the Polish version of the article, he was forced to retire in 1868 (and excommunicated in 1873 - our article doesn't mention that at the moment). 1884 is given as the date when he moved back to Lowkowice. (Incidentally the Polish article also notes the claim that we make - that he joined the Old Catholic Church - and says that it's untrue. It also says nothing about an eventual reconciliation with the RCC before his death.)--Kotniski (talk) 16:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. PeterSymonds (talk) 11:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


Jan Dzierżon → Johann Dzierzon — English sources most often use "Johann Dzierzon":

Skäpperöd (talk) 09:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure these figures are in themselves overwhelming enough to justify renaming the article, particularly as the general Google results (not restricted to books or scholar) go in quite the opposite direction. Clearly books and scholarly articles will have a bias towards the name he published under (though I'n not saying that isn't relevant), but we should be more concerned with how he's referred to in works of a biographical nature - any data on that?--Kotniski (talk) 09:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the hits above pretty well reflect English usage outside the world of wiki mirrors and web crawlers. Biographical works in English are rare, if not missing, and thus won't help to establish the most common English spelling of Dzierzon's name. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Another issue is whether to use the dot over the second 'z' in his name. I get the same counts Skäpperöd got with the Google scholar results, with the exception of 9 rather than 8 hits for "Jan Dzierżon". Is there a way to require the search to pay attention to the presence or absence of the diacritic? --Atemperman (talk) 18:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Support. He was called Johann for short, his full name was Johannes. The family name was Dzierzon, without any dot. "Jan Dzierżon" is just a translation used by Poles, heavily promoted by their propaganda in the 20th century. -- Matthead  Discuß   22:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence for any of this?--Kotniski (talk) 06:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Support. The results show that Johann Dzierzon is the most commonly used name. The fact that is is also the name put on his tombstone adds extra weight. Varsovian (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Translations?

The article currently claims (no doubt on the insistence of Matthead) that Dzierzon's publications were all initially in German and only "after translation" in Polish. Leaving aside for the moment that the sentence as it stands is ungrammatical, but is it true? We are citing one Polish language article from 1845, which would place it right at the beginning of his authorial work. Is there evidence (non-OR) that this publication is not original; was the same article published earlier elsewhere? And, has this whole matter been discussed in reliable secondary sources at all? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I would certainly like to see some sources before we include that particular statement in the article. Varsovian (talk) 13:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Some Polish sources (whether reliable or not) have mentioned that Dzierzon has written in Polish, and as that is barely discussed in English or German sources, I decided to have a closer look. I came to the conclusion that the Polish article is just a basic introduction to beekeeping, without the groundbreaking parthenogenesis news published in German. Sorry about that evil OR. Dzierzon has started to publish in the Frauendörfer Blätter, issued by a Bavarian society for Gardeners [13]. These early articles have been collected and reprinted later. In 1845, a teacher in Pless, Christian Schemmel (†1862), started to publish a weekly newsletter for peasants in Polish/Silesian language, and Dzierzon contributed to the 20th issue of the "Tygodnik Polski Poświęcony Włościanom". As it was just the 20th issue overall, with 4 pages per week, the whole annual page count has just reached page 80 by mid November. Dzierzons two-page article starts with, as far as I can figure out (barely), the remark that he had read a question in the Frauendorf newspaper about the best way to eradicate weeds (Raphanus raphanistrum) called ognichą in Polish/Silesian and Hederich in German/Silesian. What follows seems to be a lecture that those weeds are valuable for beekeeping. The article ends (as I understand) with the statement that not only the experience of him (Dzierzon), but also that of other beekeepers can be found in the "Bienenzeitung, herausgegeben zu Eichstädt", and if readers of the Tygodnik wish, more can be written about beekeeping. Seemingly, nothing was published in later issues, though, but Dzierzon obviously has continued to published a lot in German. Please do some OR and use the (just updated) link to download the file. -- Matthead  Discuß   14:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

One source says "Biografowie Jana Dzierżona przypisują mu autorstwo trzech artykułów opublikowanych w czasopismach polskich. Są to: Sztuka zrobienia złota nawet z zielska publikowany w "Tygodniku Polskim Poświęconym Włościanom", R.1 nr 20 (Pszczyna 15.11.1845), Wyjaśnienie uzdolnienia matki pszczolnej, składania jaj pszczolnych i trutowych zawsze w odpowiednie komórki w "Gazecie Rolniczej, Przemysłowej i Handlowej" 40/1857 oraz Dzierżona spostrzeżenia pszczolarskie w roku ubiegłym i nieco o pszczołach włoskich. Ten ostatni artykuł z drobnymi zmianami opublikowały: "Gwiazdka Cieszyńska" 12/1863, "Gazeta Rolnicza" (z dnia 20.04.1863) i "Ziemianin" 19/1863. Niewątpliwie przygotowane merytorycznie przez Dzierżona materiały zostały we wszystkich wypadkach poddane językowej korekcie redakcyjnej.Niewiele z bogatego dorobku Jana Dzierżona przetłumaczone zostało na język polski."

Google translate [14]: "John Dzierzon biographers attribute to him the three articles published in Polish periodicals. They are: Art done with gold, even weeds published in "magazine devoted to Polish peasants, R.1 nr 20 (Pszczyna 15/11/1845) Clarification of talent pszczolnej mother, laying eggs and trutowych pszczolnych always in the appropriate cells in the Gazeta Agricultural Industry and Commerce "and Dzierzon 40/1857 pszczolarskie observations last year and a bit of Italian bees. The last article published with a slight modification: "Star Cieszynska 12/1863," Gazeta Agriculture "(dated 20/04/1863) and" terrestrial "19/1863. Undoubtedly, prepared substantially by Dzierzon materials were in all cases subject to correction redakcyjnej.Niewiele language of a prolific John Dzierzon been translated into Polish." Skäpperöd (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Johan?

Why is this Polish beekeeper is called Johann? Have I overlooked something?--Dr.Mamalala 09:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Try reading the discussions on this page. (Basically the title is that because references to him in English tend to use that name.)--Kotniski (talk) 09:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I see...--Dr.Mamalala 09:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Basically the title is that because references to him in English tend to use that name - but that is simply false. The above google books searches are very particular, and other search strategies result in quite different results.

For example: The above search used "Google booksearch results with "[name] +bee+OR+bees+OR+beekeeping"". Why not the simpler "[name] + bee"? Maybe because it gives only 96 hits for Johann [15], while Jan gives 389 hits [16]

Or why not "[name] + Silesia" since that's where he was from? Johann gives 29 results [17], but Jan gives 40 [18].

The point is that these searches can be manipulated to give whatever results one is looking for, particularly since both Johann and Jan are used in English language sources. I'm not saying that's what's happened here but the searches themselves need to be analyzed and discussed.

Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Jan": [19]. That's an English reference, and a pretty influential one at that.radek (talk) 16:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The title should be reverted to "Jan Dzierżoń". Nihil novi (talk) 04:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Why not simpler? OK, let's make it simple: "johann Dzierzon" 713 hits, "johannes Dzierzon" (for which Johann is clearly the short form) 295 hits, "jan Dzierzon" 650 hits. So that is 1,008 for Johann/Johannes Dzierzon and 650 for the Polish version. As for the "[name] + [location]" search, given that " "jan Dzierzon" silesian" gets 41 hits and " "johann Dzierzon" german" gets 48 hits, we can most probably discount that idea. Varsovian (talk) 07:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
And ""Jan Dzierzon" Polish" gets 64 hits [20] beating out your "48" for German. And if you're going to try variations on "Johan" and then add them up, then why not try also different permutations of "Dzierzon"? The point is that we can play these kinds of games here for ever. One thing that is clear though is that BOTH versions are extensively used in English language sources. And Encyclopedia Britannica, still a respectable encyclopedia, uses "Jan". So the statement that references to him in English tend to use that name is not true; or at least not wholly true. References to him in Enlish tend to use both names.radek (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica? Would that be the same Encyclopedia Britannica which describes a certain Frédéric François Chopin as "Polish-French"? Oh yes, it is. Would you like to change the Chopin article based on what EB says or shall I? Varsovian (talk) 13:34, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Red herring. Other stuff. Stay on topic please. I have never edited the Chopin page (AFAICR), have no opinion on the matter and don't intend to edit in the future. Stay on topic please.radek (talk) 13:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and in case it wasn't obvious; using "Johan Dzierzon" (or "Johannes Dzierzon") or "Jan Dzierzon" doesn't work for the simple fact that these search terms do not filter out non-English (Polish, German, other) sources. In fact, if you look at your search for "Johann Dzierzon" the first entry is obviously in German. There is another German entry on the first page of search results, as well as, I think, a Slovak one. For the "Johannes Dzierzon" search, the second entry is in German (and most of the other entries on the first page of the search are from 1903, with basically same two works being listed multiple times). So it's a pretty good bet that a very large portion of your "1,008" hits for Johann/Johannes are non-English sources.
That's why even the original proposal for move used an additional English language word in the search term. Including "bee" tends to filter out non-English sources as that happens to be an English word. Yes, simple is generally good. But not so simple it becomes wrong.radek (talk) 12:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Flaw in previous move discussion

The previous Requested move discussion seems to have been flawed. The discussion relied heavily on Google Book and Scholar search results, but no attempt was made to restrict the search to English sources, and the search was done on the German version of Google. I obtain very different results doing the same search on the English version of the site. Searching for '"[name]" bee OR bees OR beekeeping' on the English Google books site, I obtain:

(See next section for further discussion. I used the estimates on the first page of the Google search results. I should have known better.)--Srleffler (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, the previous discussion relied on relatively small differences in counts between Jan and Johann. Google result counts are not very accurate.[21] (And contrary to what someone else asserts above, you can't simply add results for Johann and Johannes, since some books may appear on both lists.)--Srleffler (talk) 04:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Perhaps a speaker of German could confirm the meaning of the word "bees". Varsovian (talk) 07:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Interesting. Who made the counting based on search on German google book that resulted in this gross error? I suggest moving back the article since the previous vote was made on false data.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


Ummm... usually it doesn't matter (much) whether one uses English or German or whatever Google books - they all tend to give similar answers. I've used Polish google books and it always gave the same numbers as doing English google books searches (which I usually do to make sure). So that's not what's going on here.

In fact, I'm not sure what's going on here. When searching German google books - by going in to "http://www.google.de/books" then copy pasting the search string from Skapperod's link I get in fact, 336 hits [22].

Furthermore, if I click on Skapperod's link above - this one [23] I do get the page which says "1 - 10 von 29". But then if, already there, I click the "Nach Buchen suchern" button it pops up with the 336 hits [24].

I checked the settings and I'm still not sure what's going on.radek (talk) 00:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Flaw in previous book search counts - they used estimates given on first page, not final results

Searching for '"[name]" bee OR bees OR beekeeping' on the English Google books site, I obtain final counts of:

  • [25]: Jan Dzierzon 31 results
  • [26]: John Dzierzon 29 results
  • [27]: Johannes Dzierzon 60 results
  • [28]: Johann Dzierzon 74 results. Novickas (talk) 13:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Somehow I don't think that "Archiv für Bienenkunde in Verbindung mit H. v. Buttel-Reepe", "Dr. Johann Dzierzon aus Lowkowits: der altmeister der deutschen imker; der mann und sein werk", "Honungsbiet i saga och sanning", "Südwestdeutscher Imker: Verbandsorgan der Landesvereine ...", "Allgemeine deutsche Imkerzeitung", "Berichte Biochemie und Biologie" - just to name 6 hits from your "74 results" "Johann" search that appear on just one (1!) page - should be counted as English language sources. But maybe that's just me.

Let me also repeat my question above: why use THIS particular search, with three (3!) different additional filtering terms? Why not just use "[name]" bee" which gives the balance to "Jan"? Or why not use ""[name] Silesia", which also favors "Jan"?radek (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Because adding additional terms with "OR" should increase the number of valid results, ensuring that we count as many relevant sources as possible. Adding "Silesia" might bias the results, since sources focusing on his Polish heritage might be more likely to use the Polish form of his name.--Srleffler (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how adding "Silesia" would bias the results - "Slask", sure, but "Silesia" is an English term and it's not the same as "Poland" (as some people will be happy to tell you).radek (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
With English filtering on, I get 20 hits for "Jan" with Silesia, and 25 hits for Johann with Silesia. Searching for '"[name]" bee' gives almost identical results to '"[name]" bee OR bees OR beekeeping', as one would expect. Note that to get an accurate value for the number of matches, you have to page through to the end of the list of results. The number Google displays on the first page of results is inaccurate; often wildly so. --Srleffler (talk) 05:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Novickas has identified a flaw in the searches I did. I should not have trusted Google's first-page count, which is notoriously inaccurate. Repeating my search (which nominally filters out sources that aren't in English) but going to the last page as he has done, I get:

These results are really too close to call any of them a clear winner, given the unreliability of Google counting. As Radeksz has pointed out, other searches give other results. I don't think we can rely on Google counts for a solution to this matter.--Srleffler (talk) 02:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Refactoring, wow, major display of integrity. Thanks. Novickas (talk) 16:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Srleffler, yeah, it appears your search is correct, I get the same thing.radek (talk) 16:18, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Additionally the modern international conference on the person in question used the name Jan Dzierzon not Johann Dzierzon

There was a international conference on the person in question just recentely in 2006. The title of the conference used name Jan Dzierzon not Johann Dzierzon. International Apiculture Scientific Conference in centenary of Jan Dzierzon's death, Pulawy (Poland), 25-27 Apr 2006 [29][30]

This data is valuable since it informs us that modern scholars use the term Jan Dzierzon in english based literature. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll be in Pulawy next Tuesday, while I'm there I'll ask at tourist info what they think would happen to anybody who dared to suggest that a conference in Poland should use the name which is on the bloke's tombstone as opposed to the name that was put onto his tombstone during the Polish communist era. I wonder what they'll say. Varsovian (talk) 23:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless you publish it in a reliable source, we can't use your claims per WP:OR. Thank you.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
OR? You mean like the claim that a conference in Poland using the Polish name means that English speakers use the Polish name (and not the name which is actually on the man's tombstone)? Varsovian (talk) 00:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
The title of the international conference in English is available for all to see. As well as multiple articles from the conference translated into English. If you claim the conference and the articles presented another version of the name in English please present reliable sources confirming this. Thank you.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
"Translated into English"? Good to know that you don't claim it was English native speakers who used the word Jan. Given that Polish speakers call John Paul "Jana Pawla", what would they call Johannes Paulus? Varsovian (talk) 00:14, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Please present any reliable source that shows the international conference and its articles used different English versions of the name. Thank you. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that this back and forth discussion about the conference is not very helpful. The conference is not very good evidence one way or the other on the question of what version of Dzierzon's name is most common in English. A conference run by English speakers in an English speaking country would be useful evidence. An international conference held in Poland is not nearly as persuasive.--Srleffler (talk) 01:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

REMOVE "Johann" this is result of "Kulturkampf"

The is no Johann name in Polish language, thus as Pole Dzierzon should be call Jan. This is time to remove offending "Kulturkampf" result. Germans stop be arogant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.40.1.129 (talk) 15:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

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